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PCRadio, I have a KG-935G for 3 days now and it is a great radio... Look for my review after my wife proofs it. I can do so much legally with it and it all about having a great well performing radio for the right price. MacJack

(FYI: I am adding this prefacing text to my original post to tip manufacturers and readers off that I am creating a new reply today, 9/2, which will serve as a running, bullet list summary of the various points. You can go there for a quicker summary and look throughout this entire post for more specifics. Back to the original post...) A post to GMRS radio manufacturers... (For other folks, admittedly this post is a bit lengthy. This is because my main target audience are radio manufacturers who might read this forum, so I wanted to include details for their benefit. Of course, if not a manufacturer, feel free to continue reading if you'd like.) I'm fairly recent to GMRS. Even so, in that short time I've found myself in astonished [not in a good way] amazement regarding radio design decisions, quality control issues, and documentation issues. Taking these one at a time (and throwing in the bonus topic of price creep) ... Radio Design Decisions Hopefully manufacturers realize that many people buying what-should-be-more-capable GMRS radios want to use them with GMRS repeaters and not just to talk with their children on simplex. However, the design decisions I've witnessed leave me in stunned it-can't-be disbelief: + Some radios allow for the storage of the eight GMRS repeater pair channels in only eight memories. This entirely misses the mark that repeater users may need to access repeaters which use the same freq pair but with different access tones. What are GMRS repeater users expected to do in this case? Keep programming / reprogramming the tones as the users switch between those repeaters? This is inconvenient and annoying. It is even more inconvenient if the radio has to be programmed with a PC and programming cable instead of being programmable in the field using a radio's keypad. + Though I'm not sure, I seem to recall reading that at least one radio was designed with access tones in an all or nothing mode. That is, specifying an access tone applied it to all of the stored frequencies. Not good. And even if this was not the case, some radios do not (or did not) support split tones. Split tones are important for GMRS repeater use. These days some repeaters utilize a DCS transmit tone and a CTCSS receive tone, or vice versa, or two different CTCSS tones, or two different DCS tones. Split tone capability please. + Some radios were released with narrow band only. For people with wide band radios, the apparent volume of a narrow band transmission is lower, which can be annoying to listen to. Capable GMRS radios (i.e., "non-bubble-pack" variety) especially should be designed with selectable wide band and narrow band capability. Quality Control Issues It's amazing what quality control issues were released to consumers: + Without specifying which manufacturers, even recently released radios capable of both wide and narrow band were factory pre-programmed with memories set to narrow band. So right away, especially non-bubble-pack radio users will likely want to change those to wide band. This is not convenient if such radios must be programmed via a PC and programming cable, and even worse if the cable is not provided with the radio. A before-it's-released-to-the-consumer quality check should have detected and prevented this. + Similar to the above, without specifying which manufacturers, some recently released radios were factory pre-programmed with access tones stored in the memories. Not good. For example, if a particular memory had CTCSS receive tone 156.7 stored and the radio is set to use that memory, that means a transmission would be heard only if the corresponding 156.7 transmit tone is transmitted by a sender. This would be bad especially for new users - they might not even realize that they are not receiving transmissions which don't send the appropriate tone. And as above, this is a irritant if such radios require a PC and programming cable to correct this, and even worse if the cable is not included with the radio. A before-it's-released-to-the-consumer quality check should have detected and prevented this. + OEM programming software is often buggy. Or the ability to copy/paste whole row(s) or selected cells of programming data is not supported. This makes programming painful. Documentation Issues To put it kindly, often the documentation, especially for Chinese radios, is lacking. Important details are omitted. The English is poor. Please hire people with a better command of English. But that is not enough. Also make sure that the document writers understand radios well enough to know what to write. Both of these skills are needed to create worthwhile documentation. Price Creep I've been noticing price creep recently. For example, one manufacturer released a radio not long ago, then fairly recently released an updated model for $20 more, and then released an even more recent model shortly later for $50 more than the first model. I'm not saying necessarily that the two latter radios do not warrant their increased prices, but the higher prices in rapid succession have been noticed by others as well. This manufacturer also sells a mobile GMRS radio that is a bit shy of $400, which is in the mucho dinero level of the established, big name manufacturers. Again, I'm not saying necessarily that this manufacturer doesn't deserve such prices, but as the saying goes, "people are beginning to talk." This manufacturer can afford to charge these prices at least currently due to the design features incorporated in their radios versus the past, lacking offerings from their competitors. But if their competitors incorporate such features at more modest prices, they might woo customers away. Such is the waltz that is capitalism. Consumers are noticing the rapidity with which the increasingly priced radios with incremental improvements (perhaps an intentional business model) are released. As such, the consumers and their wallets might hold off on future purchases for a few beats to see what's coming 'round the bend. Examples of Good Execution I didn't want to provide only examples of bad execution. Here are some examples of good execution: + I don't know what Wouxun did or didn't do in say the last five years, but they seem to have their act together in the more recent past I'm aware of. For example, I purchased a KG-905G radio recently. Rightfully so, it did not arrive from the factory programmed in narrow band for channels in which wide band is permissible. Rightfully so, it did not arrive with access tones factory pre-programmed in memories instead of the more desirable case of no factory pre-programmed tones. Also, this radio allows a user to store multiple versions of the same repeater freqs with different tones. + Randy, from youtube channel "NotaRubicon Productions," reviewed the newly released Wouxun KG-935G handheld GMRS radio recently. It is apparent that the designers understand features to include which facilitate the use of this radio. Or possibly they included such features due to listening to influencers such as Randy and/or buytwowayradios.com. For example, the radio can be operated in a dual receive mode. To make it readily apparent which of the two selectable channels is the one that will be transmitted on when pressing the PTT button, an attention-getting red bar is present in the portion of the display corresponding to that frequency. Nice. Now let's take the case in which dual receive is active and one steps away from the radio but can hear that a transmission was received. Was it frequency A or B? There is an indicator which shows which frequency last received a transmission. Nice. But let's say you're a person who likes to keep things simple. You might find dual receive confusing or annoying. Dual receive is selectable; one is not forced to use it. Nice. * Recently, buytwowayradios.com has made the Wouxun KG-XS20G mobile radio available for purchase. While I'm waiting for reviews of this radio (believe one will be coming soon from Randy), a feature I like is one that was abandoned by many manufacturers, including the big name $$$ ones. I'm referring to the use of the sturdy, old-style mic connector. This is the connector which utilizes the strain-relieved mic cord secured by a rotating, threaded locking collar instead of the RJ-45 type of connector. I, and plenty of others, dislike the RJ-45 type of connector, especially for mobile radios. Disclosures + I have no connection with Wouxun, other than I purchased their KG-905G radio. I mention them simply because I like many of their design decisions. In case anyone thinks that I'm an automatic Wouxun fan-boy, that is not the case. For example, I wish the KG-905G radio was fully field programmable via it's key pad and knobs. As far as I know, to add or change frequencies in its memories, a PC and programming cable is required. Once that's been done, one can use the radio's limited keypad and knobs to specify or change things such as access tones, power level, and wide or narrow band. While this is better than radios that don't allow for any or next-to-nothing programmability from their keypad/knobs, I wish that the KG-905G was more field programmable in addition to the PC and programming cable method. Since the keypad of this radio is basic (i.e., numeric keys are not included), even if a convoluted way of inputting or updating frequencies could be done via the radio's keypad and knobs, I would like that. This would make the radio more flexible when traveling or otherwise away from home. + I have no connection with Randy nor his NotaRubicon youtube channel. I mention them only because he and his channel provide spot-on information about GMRS and GMRS radios. + I have no connection with buytwowayradios.com other than that's the web site from which I bought the KG-905G radio and some accessories. It is my understanding that BTWR may have interfaced with manufacturers such as Wouxun to drive design decisions for certain, uniquely-offered radios. If so, BTWR is a good asset for the GMRS world. And if that helps the manufacturer create desirable products which differentiate them from competitors and therefore drives sales, it's a win-win. Summary For the radio manufacturer's, I've provided examples of problematic radio designs, quality control issues, documentation issues, and a potential warning about increasing price creep. I've also provided examples of good execution. Finally, while providing radios with good features is nice, it is important that manufacturers also ensure reliability. The allure of whiz-bang features is long forgotten if a radio/its battery/etc fail a short time after the warranty period ends. But the bad reputation for such a manufacturer will exist long after in this case. Bad or non-existent after-purchase support also falls in this category. Note: The opinions expressed are my own. The opinions of others may vary.

Unnecessary Limitations One head-scratcher for me is when manufacturers put unnecessary limitations in place. From the perspective of repeater users, the various manufacturers have been improving things, especially lately. For example, split tone capability appears to be the norm with the newer radios. Now let's look at the ability to store the same repeater frequencies with different tones in different memories. Not long ago, some radios didn't support this. Good news: lately this capability is becoming the norm. Kind of sort of in some cases. Though it has a large number of memories, one radio allows for only nine such extra repeater-focused memories. Why was the decision made to allow only nine? The large number of memories exist already. Why not let the radio operator use the existing memories to store as many different repeater frequency / tone combinations as needed? Correcting this does not involve anything such as a hardware change. All that is needed is to not put unnecessary limitations-by-software in place to begin with. For radios already released with such a limitation, a firmware change could remove it.

Memory Banks/Groups Another feature I like and use is memory banks/groups. It is nice to be able to associate certain memories in one group (e.g., home channels), another set of memories in another group (e.g., brother's home channels), etc. That way, while visiting various locations, one can switch to the group which contains the desired channels only. Among other benefits, this speeds up scanning.

There are Motorola training videos if you have an MOL subscription *oops, MOL is going away, replaced by PartnerHub and the Learning Management Platform. I will tell you that the Motorola training videos don't really show you much of how to build a codeplug for any specific purpose. They're very general, and they'll give a few pointers, but most of what I've learned over 15+ years messing with DMR has been by poking around and experimenting. Analog is pretty simple and straightforward, but the Digital stuff can drive you nuts until you figure what ticking one checkbox does to 10 other parameters. There's a few videos on the Utube that will help you out for a few specifics like setting up IP Site Connect or building a Capacity Plus codeplug, and there are sample codeplugs out there for some of the more popular DMR Ham platforms that will get you 90% of the way to what you want without spending a bunch of nights typing in 1000 contacts and 15 zones. You can also give Wayne Holmes blog a look, he's probably the best free resource you'll find for Motorola. He's also got a few videos online that are better (In my opinion) than what Motorola puts out. https://cwh050.blogspot.com/

I have CPS V16 build 827 that I use for my XPR7550 and XMR5550 UHF radios. I can understand the consternation since it has a TON of stuff that we won't need and would never have use. It's simply cluttering up the UI. It is primarily aimed a DMR usage, but is quite adequate for analog use as well. For the best source of information on Motorola, visit Batwing Laboratories (batlabs.com)

I traded out my XLT-50 duplexer for a Sinclair Technologies MR356-N-2. Ordered it tuned to the channel I wanted to use. Ordered from the theantennafarm.com Works much better, and costs $500 instead of $150. But we get what we pay for. I also send my XLT-50 to John at BuyTwoWayRadios.com and he is tuning it to my freq so I'll try it again when it comes back.

On the GM-30 and TD-H5, Menu 30 scans CTCSS codes, and Menu 31 scans DCS codes.

The P15-UV and GM-30, as well as the Tidradio TD-H5, are essentially the same radio. As you noted, the Baofeng radio has a different keyboard layout, but from what I've heard, it doesn't match the programming menu of the radio. The keyboards on the other two models do match the programming menu, which I believe is the same across all three radios. I've read that you can use the same software to program all three radios, though my experience is only with the GM-30 and TD-H5 models, and can confirm that to be the case with these two radio models.

I have a software programming background. The PC software for these units is bizarre. I don't mean to insult the people who are working there to make it. Its just not acceptable. Like, simple features providing copy/paste, sane defaults, drop down combo-box behavior, multi selection, and so on. CHIRP is not much better.

No. One input frequency and one output frequency (aka “Repeater Pair”) at at time. And despite the ability to change frequencies on the radio, expect performance to suffer if you set the radio’s frequency to something other than what the internal duplexer has been optimized for. Hope that helps. Michael WRHS965 KE8PLM

BuyTwoWayRadios needs to be given credit for the improvements that the have made to happen with the recent crop of Wouxun Radios. I can’t honestly say that I can attribute any of the recent improvements to the manufacturer directly. Some background for you. I received one of the first shipment of KG905G radios. I had preordered it the first I learned it was in the works. Within the first couple of hours I discovered major flaws. Wouxun thought this was perfectly acceptable apparently, because no respectable quality control department ever would have passed it. They must think we Americans are to stupid to notice. Within a short time after reporting the issue to BTWR independently verifying the issues, production on the radio was halted. I believe early action on their part saved the 905G from being a disaster and I suspect it was likely a major contributor to the long delay before Wouxun got the issues resolved and product begin shipping again. They earned a lot of respect from me for this. Since that time I have had many interactions with BTWR regarding product performance and have assisted with pre-release testing of product, including the two most recent releases. I am pleased to report that many issues were caught by both parties and corrected before units went into full production. It is sad however that it is taking a distributor to do the manufacturer’s job for them, but for those of us that own Wouxun GMRS radios we should be very thankful they are involved. And as far as the UI improvements in the latest crop of radios, we have BTWR to thank, both for opening the door to external collaboration but also pushing the manufacturer to do a better job. I am actively lobbying for still a much improved user experience and a way of doing field programming of channelized radios. Comments in this thread may prove helpful in making the case further that change is necessary. mrGMRS, I agree with you. The 905G (or its successor) can and should be able to be fully and conveniently field programmed, and it should be able to be done faster and more conveniently that any of the current crop of GMRS radios, even those with keypads. The story is written. The question is whether the manufacturer cares. However, all of this is mute if everyone wants radios at bottom of the barrel prices. If there is no money to be made… Just my two cents. I must admit I was thrilled to see this thread start. Michael WRHS965 KE8PLM

Their website is kind of unhelpful. I've been eyeing some of their LMR gear, and in digging there's a lot of their LMR stuff that exists in their website still, with little to no leads as to whether it's current product or not. They do still appear to have some LMR product on the market, at least.

Disappointing that the Midland Personal Radio rep can't talk intelligently about those subjects. I don't think Midland wants to see GMRS as anything more than a consumer toy. If customers were knowledgeable, they might buy radios with better specs and features. Funny that Midland does not make GMRS repeaters. The problem may be the corporate structure as they do have , (or once did) a land mobile radio division that once made some fair to midland (pun intended) mobile radios. Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

I think the lesson here is that if all you want is a cheap simplex radio to talk short distances in your group, then by all means buy a couple Midland radios. They will unfortunately be low performance narrow band radios by design. If you want to talk through repeaters and talk to other licensees, you need a commercial grade radio like many of the Kenwood radios. They are plentiful from used market at cheap price. They will have wide band capability, better receivers, multiple CTCSS ( PL ) / DCSS (DCS), split tone , repeater capability. Etc Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

It was one (or more) of the newer overseas entries coming with preprogramming issues. Midland is pushing hard (from a sponsorship standpoint) on the overland/off-road community, especially in the move from cb to gmrs; can't argue with this as a smart business tactic. Also can't argue with Midland being very good at things being off the shelf ready. The weakness until the recent updates has been their missing tones and lack of ability for split tones (minus compute programming the mxt400), though this is less of an issue with simplex use. The whole tone to code conversion you have to do to change tones isn't exactly intuitive either. Maybe repeater usage is more of an afterthought, and their main focus is simplex users. The other manufacturers just don't have the presence here that Midland does to get behind the marketing, I think. Wouxun is definitely making some big progress in terms of product with others not all that far behind, but how much of that is wouxun, and how much is it more them custom programming something for a given vendor, with the vendor being the one taking the big risk to put something better on the market?

Yes, give it a day or two. There are sometimes delays in FCC getting the data out, and there's been an ongoing issue with a bad character in the data file that FCC puts out causing issues with loading the into the site's database, but it's usually sorted in a day or two.

The Radioddity GM-30's can hand split tones and are inexpensive. Retevis has a cheap one too.

Oh, and Radio Management & templates is probably not something you want to mess with for basic codeplug builds on one or two radios. As you surmised, it's more of a fleet management tool. It is good if you want to push out OTAP codeplug updates to 100+ radios, without having to lug around a laptop and cables to touch each radio.