Can GMRS repeaters be linked to the web like Echo Link for hams?

[WRCP828]

Does anyone know?

[dwmitchell61]

Hey Corey, Looking at it from a different viewpoint makes a difference. Other than my own trailer mounted repeater, there are none where I live. Gaining that kind of difference in distance is impressive. Sometimes the Symantecs overwhelms the subject. Then again, I do love a good rant.

 

It's okay. From what I understand, rants are very much in vogue right now! LMAO...

[ke4lqy]

§ 95.349 Network connection.

Operation of Personal Radio Services stations connected with the public switched network is prohibited, unless otherwise allowed for a particular Personal Radio Service by rules in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.949 and 95.2749.

 

FCC explanation :                               https://swcrs.org/?p=682           

 

 

[Sshannon]

The Internet is not the public switched telephone network, nor does it use the PSTN unless you’re using dial-up internet. 

[wayoverthere]

26 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

The Internet is not the public switched telephone network, nor does it use the PSTN unless you’re using dial-up internet. 

right? the wording for 95E is a bit clearer, too

Quote

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

contrary to what they say their understanding is, the definitions of "interconnected" and "non-interconnected" in that FCC opinion seem to hinge on whether you can receive telephone calls from the publicly switched telephone network or not....which would seem to make even DSL without telephone service meet the "non interconnected" definition (and therefore good to go).

Edited June 26, 2022 by wayoverthere
added 'interconnected/non-interconnected' text

[KAF6045]

1 hour ago, ke4lqy said:

§ 95.349 Network connection.

Operation of Personal Radio Services stations connected with the public switched network is prohibited, unless otherwise allowed for a particular Personal Radio Service by rules in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.949 and 95.2749. 

Neither of those reference GMRS. They are (old class D) 27MHz CB and MURS services. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E/section-95.1749 is the GMRS closest match.

Quote

§ 95.1749 GMRS network connection.

Operation of a GMRS station with a telephone connection is prohibited, as in § 95.349. GMRS repeater, base and fixed stations, however, may be connected to the public switched network or other networks for the sole purpose of operation by remote control pursuant to § 95.1745.

21 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

The Internet is not the public switched telephone network, nor does it use the PSTN unless you’re using dial-up internet. 

The question then becomes: for what purpose is this Internet connection desired?

If the intent is to transmit/receive voice data I suspect one will fall afoul of

Quote

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted by a GMRS station;

(11) Messages for public address systems.

To create a viable Internet linking system, one will need to replicate the functionality of D-Star, YSF, or (Amateur) DMR network servers, without the benefit of radios that already incorporate (AMBE) CODECS to go from analog voice to efficient digital packets. One would have to implement such CODECS in software on some hosting computer. The second factor is that any such Internet "GMRS Network" will have have a recognized organization taking user registrations, and validating them against a database of known GMRS licensees... AND THERE LIES THE RUB.

D-Star, DMR, and YSF capable radios transmit the user identification (call sign, or for DMR, a 7-digit "private call" ID that has been registered against a call sign). But a GMRS radio doesn't have that capability -- so there is no way to confirm that any voice data is tied to a valid GMRS user.

Analog voice closest match is maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Radio_Linking_Project and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EchoLink I'm not clear on how user validation is done, though call signs do need to be registered for EchoLink, if not IRLP. Of note, Amateur rules (part 97) explicitly has a section for

Quote

§ 97.219 Message forwarding system.

(a) Any amateur station may participate in a message forwarding system, subject to the privileges of the class of operator license held.

(b) For stations participating in a message forwarding system, the control operator of the station originating a message is primarily accountable for any violation of the rules in this part contained in the message.

(c) Except as noted in (d) of this section, for stations participating in a message forwarding system, the control operators of forwarding stations that retransmit inadvertently communications that violate the rules in this part are not accountable for the violative communications. They are, however, responsible for discontinuing such communications once they become aware of their presence.

(d) For stations participating in a message forwarding system, the control operator of the first forwarding station must:

(1) Authenticate the identity of the station from which it accepts communications on behalf of the system; or

(2) Accept accountability for any violation of the rules in this part contained in messages it retransmits to the system.

Though I'll concede, at the base, that may mean the equivalent of paper telegrams being relayed from one station to another until it reaches a destination for delivery. But we've had AX.25 packet for decades, and TNCs with "mailboxes" -- though those were not directly "Internet" linked (which then leads to APRS).

[ke4lqy]

4 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

1 hour ago, ke4lqy said:

§ 95.349 Network connection.

Operation of Personal Radio Services stations connected with the public switched network is prohibited, unless otherwise allowed for a particular Personal Radio Service by rules in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.949 and 95.2749. 

Neither of those reference GMRS. They are (old class D) 27MHz CB and MURS services. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E/section-95.1749 is the GMRS closest match.

You obviously did not click the link to the letter from the FCC clarifying the regulation. Here it is again...       https://swcrs.org/?p=682         

[KAF6045]

Letter is still not all that clear. Reading the underlined portion comes across as the equivalent to a "leased line" -- originally a phone company provided direct line from one location to another with no ability to "dial" other locations. Often used (pre-Internet and VPN) for transferring data between distant facilities of a company. This (the connection in the letter) is merely getting routed through the Internet system, but as described is still a one-to-one (repeater to repeater) linkage. Not an ad-hoc any-equipped repeater to any-equipped repeater.

The letter also starts off stating that "cable" is probably fine, while DSL (and likely old ISDN) provided over phone wires is not. BUT... Many "cable" ISPs offer VoIP service fas a replacement for telephone dial-up calling -- which makes them an "interconnected" service per the text of 9.3(4). And even that gets confusing these days -- the "DSL or dial-up Internet" appears to assume that, taking the modem away, one still has a working phone line with a dial-tone on the wires. But, for example, I have u-Verse. There is no functional dial-tone on the phone line -- the phone company doesn't even offer POTS service in this area, only u-Verse which uses the entire bandwidth of the wires for digital data. The dial-up phone has to plug into the modem which digitizes it into VoIP packets.

I had missed that the OP had mentioned EchoLink in the thread subject when I'd previously worked my way down to it, but still-- EchoLink allows for multiple ad-hoc user connections to repeaters, doesn't even require that one go through a repeater to enter the system (Just a microphone and speaker on the Internet access computer), and requires some form of validated registration (which means some central authority that the software must route through). Given that there is EchoLink software that runs on cell-phones, porting it for GMRS is likely falling into the 9.3(4) exclusion. Heck, how would one ensure any user of the software is not in the 9.3(4) situation? My interpretation of the underlined portion of the letter at least allows for the repeater operator(s) to ensure that both ends of this single repeater<>repeater connection are clear (if they can find a cable ISP that does not offer VoIP connections to regular phones) -- at that point they just have to monitor the users of their repeaters (call signs, et al), but that is already their responsibility.

 

[wayoverthere]

On echolink, there is ability to specify who is allowed to connect; I haven't looked at it in a bit, but I want to say you wlcould blacklist or whitelist regions/countries specifically, even get down to whitelist-only access by call signs. (Haven't gone down that road yet, but planning to, for remote access to the base setup)

Being that you have to be a licensed ham to access echolink, it'd pretty much be limited to dual licensed users if you wanted to do a "echolink to repeater" setup, and you'd want to be really careful with who you granted access to.

Looking at comparables without actually going into the ham side, zello is probably the closest, and there's a number of repeaters out there with access via app. Simplified, you'd have the repeater connected to a channel, and restrict access to transmit in the channel to licensed users only.