You just got your GMRS license, now you want your own repeater?

[MacJack]

I have a use a VXR-7000 with duplexer inside.  Set my radio for repeater at 10 watts and 20 watts as you not need or want to push high output.  Got it on ebay for $500.  Well worth looking at.

MacJack

[OffRoaderX]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:01 PM, WyoJoe said:

Did yours come with the internal duplexer, or did you add one to it? I'm thinking about setting one up with the duplexer, but the ones I've found didn't come with a duplexer. From looking at the manual for the VXR-7000, it looks like you could add a common 50W duplexer for the same (or very similar) result.

I did find that Antenna Farm has the VXR-7000 programming cable and CE27 software available in a package for a reasonable price. If you ever want to change the programming on yours, it might be worth having.

Yes - this one has the official Vertex duplexer but its rated at only 30W so you have to hobble the repeater when using it.. I am now looking for a good/used "real" duplexer bandpass/reject rated at 100W - that would allow me to use the full power of the radio but more important, should perform measurably better (better receive sensitivity).

On that cable - from what I have read, and from what the shop that did my programming told (and showed) me, the cable is 2-part:  1) the USB part, and 2) another serial converter somthingorther - so what I see at Antenna Farm for $49 is the less-expensive half only.. ALSO, it looks like CE27 requires Windows 7 or older to run which I dont have and dont want to hassle with a VM, blah blah..  For now i think i'm done programming, but now i know "a guy" that has everything so i can get it done for only the cost of burgers and beerz ..

[MacJack]

It is not hard to program... but like you I had a friend help me tune the duplexer in...  

I did purchase a programing cable from https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75_77_1224_1225&products_id=6553 and you will see it plugs into the Mic jack of the radio and USB port of PC...  The tricky thing is picking correct USB comm port and I used an old XP and had no issues...  PM if you need some help.

MacJack

[MichaelLAX]

...

[WyoJoe]

On 7/23/2021 at 9:11 AM, OffRoaderX said:

On that cable - from what I have read, and from what the shop that did my programming told (and showed) me, the cable is 2-part:  1) the USB part, and 2) another serial converter somthingorther - so what I see at Antenna Farm for $49 is the less-expensive half only.. ALSO, it looks like CE27 requires Windows 7 or older to run which I dont have and dont want to hassle with a VM, blah blah..  For now i think i'm done programming, but now i know "a guy" that has everything so i can get it done for only the cost of burgers and beerz ..

The antenna farm cable is a USB to serial cable and is not a two-part cable. It connects the computer's USB port to the Mic jack on the VXR-7000. As for the software, I run it on my Linux computer using Wine with the Windows XP profile, and once the proper COM port was configured, it worked well for me.

I purchased a used VXR-7000 and added a duplexer to it, installed in a similar manner to the "official" Vertex model, then programmed it using the cable and software from Antenna Farm. I'm about to turn it on to test it out, so hopefully it will all work as planned.

[Doctnj]

I did that exact thing.  I got my license, my personal radios for a little while.  Now I have 40 watt Motorola repeater on on DB411 antenna with heliax hardline 120' agl on mountain.  Great coverage. 

I'd say a very good start. 

[WROC668]

New guy here.  There is a ton of good information in this original post and follow-up discussion.  I have not read the entire thread yet but I plan to.

An observation: the original posts asks the most important question "why do you want to set up a repeater?" and then answers a completely different question: "why you don't want to set up a repeater"   

It would have helped the discussion to actually discuss the original question, and then follow with separate threads/discussions about each of the motivations/use cases.  For example, the OP initiates a great discussion on one use case (permanent public repeaters), but dismisses other uses cases (portable repeaters for events; personal repeaters for hunting areas, farms and ranches, local groups). 

Clearly, there are people who have had success with each of these use cases.  A good thread on each would be valuable in a diverse forum like this.

[jbarr]

Another new guy here.

Generally speaking, I do agree with the general sentiment of leaving "repeater building" to those dedicated to quality, stability, and coverage...and who can afford it. I get it. You can really fubar things without much effort. You can also come up with installs that are stellar and serve the purpose. 

BUT, it still begs the question that keep seeing so many asking of how to set up SHTF communications among family and friends where simplex won't work, and there's no repeater. And use cases can vary greatly. My BIL (who simply does not want to get a ham license) and I are separated by hilly and forested terrain such that simplex via HT is completely out of the question. Decent antennas mounted high and a Wouxun kg-1000g at each site MIGHT go a long way to providing a solution. But the idea of being able to install a "casual use" repeater that would not only tie together such sites, but provide intermediate HT contact as well is extremely compelling. And I get it. Such a repeater install still required the proper antennas, height, and equipment. It's just that given today's advancements, it really surprises me that the only really affordable "plug and play" solution barely puts out 20 watts.

Anyway, very interesting and informative thread....

Jim Barr, WRNQ679, N9ONL

[hahndav]

IMO, do not let the radio snobs discourage you.  
As a long time Ham, from a family of Hams, the hobby is about learning and having fun. You can setup a simple repeater on your kitchen table with parts you probably already have, or easily and cheaply acquired from ebay.  Go for it, just be considerate and don't cross over established repeaters. Some people way overvalue their role in the hobby.  
They even have a pre-made HT to HT relay box just plug and play for like $15. Sure it is not even close to a commercial repeater, but fun to experiment with, and if in a prime location it might get you to a location you could not reach before.

If the FCC does not have a problem with it than neither should the rest of us.  The antenna saying is a bit dated, get a VNA and tune the fudge out of a reasonably priced antenna. Again IMO.    73s have fun out there.

[gortex2]

47 minutes ago, hahndav said:

IMO, do not let the radio snobs discourage you.  
As a long time Ham, from a family of Hams, the hobby is about learning and having fun. You can setup a simple repeater on your kitchen table with parts you probably already have, or easily and cheaply acquired from ebay.  Go for it, just be considerate and don't cross over established repeaters. Some people way overvalue their role in the hobby.  
They even have a pre-made HT to HT relay box just plug and play for like $15. Sure it is not even close to a commercial repeater, but fun to experiment with, and if in a prime location it might get you to a location you could not reach before.

If the FCC does not have a problem with it than neither should the rest of us.  The antenna saying is a bit dated, get a VNA and tune the fudge out of a reasonably priced antenna. Again IMO.    73s have fun out there.

The entire point of this thread was to explain the differences of a real repeater that wil ldo what you want vs 2 CCRs with a plug and play box. There are many who have lofty expectations of GMRS and think you can talk 30 miles with a $100 of parts. Thats not going to happen. As an established GMRS user Id rather have folks play on ham radio if they want to experiment....

 

[MichaelLAX]

3 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

... As an established GMRS user Id rather have folks play on ham radio if they want to experiment....

 

Three questions:

1) How long does it take before I become an established GMRS user; and 

2) If experimenting is to be frowned upon on GMRS, wouldn't it be better for you to explain to us less-established GMRS users, what established GMRS users use GMRS for? and

3) What is the difference between an established GMRS user and an established GMRS user ID? 

[WRKC935]

On 1/25/2021 at 4:03 PM, smalpierre said:

I've read at least 2 or 3 people in here saying that a cheap cobbled together repeater is useless, just use simplex (what can you do with this that you can't do with FRS), and how you're not going to gain any range, it's way too expensive, and way too technical for most licensees, what are you going to get out of it ... I guess some people just started with a mountain of equipment, truckload of money, and all the know-how!

You know what I get out of a cheesy sub thousand dollar repeater setup that I can't get from FRS? Almost 10 miles in any direction reliably to HT's. Oh, and unlike these fancy high dollar commercial setups I keep hearing about "needing" to make a useful repeater? It's not illegal. I also have fun building, and improving, and geeking out on techie things. Are you guys really getting 10+ miles simplex on HT's (on bubble pack FRS radios no less!)? I didn't think so because that would be absolute poppycock! I'm so glad I never listened to guys that kept saying "you can't".

I'm not saying everybody should go set up a repeater, but the idea that they're useless unless you spend tens of thousands on a commercial type install (which again - is most likely not legal to begin with) is patently absurd. Not everybody has the same goals, or is in the same situation.

Alright.  Since I am the guy with the tens of thousands of dollars setup and the commercial install I believe I need to interject here.  Never did I say that a small repeater system is useless.  And there are COMMERCIAL repeaters available that ARE indeed two mobiles in a box with a controller between them.  And those work find if that is all you need. 

My point was if you are going to put up a big commercial grade install that you need to NOT pull the crap of wanting fee's paid for access, as this level of install has a huge footprint that will interfere with other repeaters on the same frequency in that footprint.  And the frequency resource is limited for repeaters.  I am all for guys that want to put up a repeater on their roof or short TV tower and be able to talk 8 or 10 miles.  This sort of thing SHOULD be encouraged.  But you still need to be aware of others on the frequency and try to find a quiet pair to set your repeater up on.   

The other thing that needs to be said here is IF you are going to stick an antenna WAY up in the air and cover a 60 to 80 mile radius, you DO need to have good commercial equipment and not two portables with a back to back cable between them and a cheap duplexer.  And here's the reason.  If you are the only one that will be using it, and the usage is light, it don't matter.  But with a big coverage footprint there is a good chance that it will see a lot of use and portable radios are NOT designed to be run at that duty cycle.  The commercial repeaters I use for GMRS are 100% CCS (continuous commercial service) rated.  This means they are designed to be transmitting up to 100% of the time, 27/7/365 and live.  If you were to try that with the two back to back mobiles the transmitter would not survive the abuse, even with a fan and additional cooling.   Now, my repeaters are only logging 30 to 45 minutes of use a day currently... but that number keeps increasing.  And that's fine.  I built it to run all the time, and offer it for free to all licensed users in the coverage area to use at their leisure.  But I would hate to see someone put in inferior gear at some remote site and it die when it was needed.  That situation is actually worse in my mind than it not being there at all.  Because if it's needed and expected to be operational.  And that operational repeater is part of someones emergency plan, then it needs to work as such. 

 

 

[Ian]

I always ask "How much radio do you need?"

But I also have an unhealthy obsession with "vehicular repeaters" and wireless speaker-mics.  So take this with a grain of salt.

But sometimes you really don't need much radio -- range or power -- to achieve your goals.  We should really be encouraging small garage repeaters on Open Repeater Initiative configurations; there's a lot of coverage holes, and this would help with that.

[maddogrecurve]

On 3/18/2019 at 8:29 AM, coryb27 said:

Why does every new license holder want to setup a repeater? I would like to shed a little light on some of the important things to consider if you recently got your GMRS license and now want your own repeater.

 

First thing to consider, are there any open well placed repeaters in your area that you are able to use? I can assure you most repeater owners want people to use there repeater. Owning several repeaters I can assure you all are welcome and encouraged to use my machines.

 

Do you have access to a location to host your repeater? If your answer is your garage roof you should reconsider. Your garage roof will give you about the same coverage as simplex. Unless you’re on top of a mountain and all your users are at the bottom you will never be happy with this setup.

 

GMRS is not as popular as one would like to think, unless your repeater covers 20 miles or more you may find you only have 1 or 2 users in the area. Unless you already have a group of friends together you may want to consider this before spending money on a decent well positioned site to install your repeater.

 

So you found a nice high site and the price is right, all you need to do is get the repeater installed, sounds simple right? Some thigs to consider first and foremost are the costs because they can add up quickly. Are you on a commercial tower that requires a license and bonded climber? If so this could be by far your largest expense depending on your area. I have spent $600 to $1200 on a climber; I have had quotes as high as $2500 depending on the amount of work and heights involved.  Keep in mind commercial sites require certified mounts, hard line cable, cable clamps, engineered grounding solutions and commercial grade antennas. No tower owner is going to let you install a comet antenna and 200’ of braided shield coax.

 

This brings me to my next point, the antenna. Because of the costs involved with climbers you will want to expend your budget on the antenna. Remember a $2000 repeater on a $200 antenna is going to work about as good as a $200 repeater.  Whereas a $200 repeater on a $2000 antenna is going to work like a $2000 repeater. On my first repeater I was gifted use of a 150’ tower, I installed a DB-420 on the top and 160’ of 7/8 hardline. Total cost of equipment for the antenna install was $2500, with the climbers labor coming in at an additional $800. This left me with enough to purchase an old Motorola R100 repeater running at 25W. To my surprise it had 30 miles of coverage, all due to the cash spent on the antenna and waiting for a decent spot.

 

Things happen, more so if you have an antenna 200’ in the air with a conductive cable connected to sensitive electronics. Antenna issues, feedline issues, repeater issues all cost money and I promise at some point you will have issues that need repair and require your money!

 

It is my opinion that the GMRS community does not need another 2 to 5 miles repeater as it just becomes background noise. What use is a public listed repeater if somebody in a mobile can’t use it 5 miles away while moving or the portable coverage is only a mile? If after reading this you are still going to build a repeater for your garage more power to you, just don’t expect 20 people to show up if it only reaches a mile.

 

As the owner of several GMRS and Commercial repeaters I can attest to the amount of money and effort go into my repeaters. I have only touched on the basics, if you add in any kind of testing services, duplexer tuning, addition of a combiner channel to an existing tower system, RF engineering, rent and insurance your costs can sky rocket. The best advice I can give any new licensee is to try and use the available systems in the area. Take the time to learn a little about what you’re doing and to assess the usability of the service before investing in a repeater for the sole reason of saying you own one.

Kind Sir,

 

In my area (The Columbia Gorge Oregon), there are no repeaters at all!!  I do want to start a group of GMRS users first, then discuss as a group setting up a repeater or two and maybe linking it with a system of repeaters leading into Portland for rec and emergency use, but that is a long ways away..

 

Thanks for your input, I understand that they are expensive and time consuming, and I do not have the money nor time right now for it.  I do want to get my ham license because we do have 2m 70cm repeaters and people who actually talk on them around me, unlike GMRS.  All I have is flaggers, travelers, and yelling toddlers on the FRS/GMRS band.....

[maddogrecurve]

On 10/21/2019 at 1:50 PM, andygeekboy said:

Wish I'd have read this post before I ran off 'half-cocked' *like I always do!

I'm with ya!  Though I have not started the repeater journey yet, so I am glad I am reading this!!

[maddogrecurve]

On 7/1/2020 at 10:49 AM, Lscott said:

That all depends. I have a Ham buddy who built a special event repeater, for local marathons and bike runs, really cheap with some used radios and a good power amp. The way it was done is using cross-band repeating so the expensive cavity filters get ditched. Most Ham HT’s can be programmed to do split band operation. You RX on one frequency on one band, say VHF, and TX on another, UHF, when you press the PTT button. For Ham radio this usually ends up being the 2 meter and 70 cm bands. On the repeater side a simple diplexer is enough to work the VHF and UHF radios into and can be had for $50 to $75 new.

 

Then he takes advantage of the local high rise buildings. Through his contacts he has access to the roof tops. No need for an expensive tower and feed line. When you’re on top of a 10 to 15+ story building you get some decent coverage. Since the repeater can be located close to the temporary antenna you don’t need expensive feed line. And what you do use is fairly short thus keeping the losses down and thus the TX’er power required.

 

Granted his conditions are not the general case but if one looks around and takes advantage of the local resources you can save a huge amount of money and effort. 

 

However if one wants to build an in-band repeater, then yes it gets more complicated and likely expensive as you pointed out.

Sounds like he has his head screwed on straight!  I like the way he thinks!!

[PACNWComms]

Great to see this information up front and on top. I have administered P25 radio networks for a very long time, and repeaters are not for the newcomers. I have built portable repeaters for use in the aftermath of hurricanes: Katrina, Rita, and Wilma,and for incidents such as the 2010 Deepwater Horizon (oil rig) explosion and resultant oil spill response. All of the advice given here is spot on. Repeaters are after you gain some experience running "barefoot"and simplex for a while.

[Sshannon]

Very new guy here, but what I first noticed is the notion that a cheap repeater won’t do what a person wants, but that’s entirely based on an assumption of what that person wants, without ever asking.

So, here’s my use case:

I’m in an amateur rocketry club, launching from hilly land.  The hills make simplex communications impossible when we’re retrieving rockets, even though the range is always under five miles and usually within one mile.  However, there’s a tall hill to the east which is visible from most places.  I suspect that hill would make a good spot for a temporary repeater in a man portable can. Because it’s BLM property, nothing permanent can be erected.

The repeater is only needed one day per month for about 8 hours and total air time is probably under a half hour. There are no GMRS repeaters within maybe 100 miles.

This seems like something that the Retevis RT-97 might do well.  Because I would have to carry it to the top of the hill, it has to be something lightweight.  We may not drive off-road and no roads go to the top of that hill.

This would probably be paid for out of my own pocket.

Why wouldn’t something like the Retevis, a whip antenna, and a couple SLA batteries in a five gallon bucket be appropriate for my purposes?

Thanks for your help,

Noob Steve

WROM258

[MichaelLAX]

48 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Why wouldn’t something like the Retevis, a whip antenna, and a couple SLA batteries in a five gallon bucket be appropriate for my purposes. 

Welcome to GMRS and myGMRS!

Although more expensive, rechargeable lithium batteries are much lighter to carry. 
_________________________
Wagon Boss: It’s a butte!

Wagon Boss: And right purdy, too!

  —  Firesign Theater, Temporarily Humbolt County, 1968

[Radioguy7268]

It sounds like a good use case for a small portable repeater. Not sure how far away the "hill to the east" would be, but if your max range is 5 miles, you probably don't need to get too carried away with picking out the exact perfect spot. Something closer to the center of your operations might work just as well and be less of a hike.

Not sure of the size of your rockets, but have you ever messed around with a LoRaWAN tracker? They are relatively small & light weight (two AA batteries).

[BoxCar]

Noob Steve,

Your proposed installation is sound and definitly workable. Probably the key item to your proposed install will be the antenna. No matter which antenna you use, the key will be antenna heighth. I would look into finding a metal fence post or long spike that could be driven into the hilltop and a PVC pipe slipped over it. Attach the antenna to the PVC for added height and you would be good to go. The spike or post could be left in place as there would be no damage to the environment (and unnoticeable unless you knew where to look). A ground rod or piece of rebar driven at least a foot nto the ground would be sufficient for your purposes and a 10 foot piece of 3/4 inch PVC serve as the mast. As you wouldn't launch in windy condition conditions, you don't need to worry about wind loading for the antenna.

[Sshannon]

12 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Welcome to GMRS and myGMRS!

Although more expensive, rechargeable lithium batteries are much lighter to carry. 
_________________________
Wagon Boss: It’s a butte!

Wagon Boss: And right purdy, too!

  —  Firesign Theater, Temporarily Humbolt County, 1968

Thank you for the welcome.  I probably looked right past the forum where I should introduce myself.

I absolutely agree that lipos would be lighter.  However, I have a hundred or so SLA batteries and I thought that I could use them as ballast for the antenna base as well.  I might end up switching to lipos after lugging them to the top of the hill a couple times.  Or maybe I’ll get one of the younger rocketeers to carry them...  

[Lscott]

7 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Thank you for the welcome.  I probably looked right past the forum where I should introduce myself.

I absolutely agree that lipos would be lighter.  However, I have a hundred or so SLA batteries and I thought that I could use them as ballast for the antenna base as well.  I might end up switching to lipos after lugging them to the top of the hill a couple times.  Or maybe I’ll get one of the younger rocketeers to carry them...  

I’ve given up on SLA batteries. Switched over to using LFP, lithium iron phosphate, types. A good source is at the link below. 
 

https://www.bioennopower.com

For solar charging in the field you need LFP specific charge controllers. I have several of the GV-5’s from this company.

https://sunforgellc.com/genasun/

 

[Sshannon]

6 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

It sounds like a good use case for a small portable repeater. Not sure how far away the "hill to the east" would be, but if your max range is 5 miles, you probably don't need to get too carried away with picking out the exact perfect spot. Something closer to the center of your operations might work just as well and be less of a hike.

Not sure of the size of your rockets, but have you ever messed around with a LoRaWAN tracker? They are relatively small & light weight (two AA batteries).

Our rockets are anywhere from model rockets to 30 pounds or so.

I haven’t gotten my hands on a LoRa gadget yet.  So far I’ve used rf beepers (raptor xmitters were the most common 10 years ago) and 915 MHz gps and telemetry devices, but a pair of GPS LoRa T-Beams is actually on my Amazon wishlist.  My kids are always wanting to know what to get me for Christmas, so I didn’t buy them for myself yet.  There is a rocket tracker manufacturer that I think uses LoRa.  He advertises that his trackers will form a mesh network.

The hill is 1500 feet away and maybe 30-50 feet higher (swag) than where we’re permitted to launch.  The hill blocks transmissions to the other side of itself as it is, so I thought maybe I could use it.

[Sshannon]

5 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Noob Steve,

Your proposed installation is sound and definitly workable. Probably the key item to your proposed install will be the antenna. No matter which antenna you use, the key will be antenna heighth. I would look into finding a metal fence post or long spike that could be driven into the hilltop and a PVC pipe slipped over it. Attach the antenna to the PVC for added height and you would be good to go. The spike or post could be left in place as there would be no damage to the environment (and unnoticeable unless you knew where to look). A ground rod or piece of rebar driven at least a foot nto the ground would be sufficient for your purposes and a 10 foot piece of 3/4 inch PVC serve as the mast. As you wouldn't launch in windy condition conditions, you don't need to worry about wind loading for the antenna.

I probably could get away with driving a post, but we share it with a rancher who grazes his cattle there.  If something happened and he complained to the BLM we might lose access.  I’d rather not chance it.  Instead I thought I’d use the weight of the batteries to stabilize the antenna base.  As I learn more about antennas I might be forced to admit you’re right. If so I’ll contact the rancher and the BLM before driving a post.  We use aluminum 1010 rail for our launch rails and we have some tripod or quad pod bases for launch pads that I thought I might be able to repurpose as an antenna base, weighted down with the SLA batteries.