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Whats with repeater users needing permission on GMRS?


w4thm
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...You said it's not a hobby, then listed a whole bunch of hobbies that it's used for, and then said those hobbies don't sound like hobbies. That's not an opinion... that is silliness.

 

I love a logical, lexical, challenge. 

 

To start...

hob·by

an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.

"her hobbies are reading and gardening"

 

And, hunting, off-roading, kayaking are all good candidates for hobbies (unless, of course, you do them professionally).

But, use of something in support of a hobby does not ipso-facto make that thing into a hobby. So, maintaining a trailer for a kayak is not, in and of itself, a hobby. It is quite probable that no pleasure is derived from that activity. And, maintaining an off-road vehicle is very likely a big part of an off-roading hobby.  While buying buying a tank of gas is probably not.  The question is: Does the supporting activity on its own, bring pleasure. Of course people and their interests differ. So, while buying gas is a chore to me, best pawned off on another family member, Marc may find it brings extreme pleasure invoking thoughts of flying up (and down) muddy slopes.

 

Which brings us to GMRS and @O-B-1. If he just puts a GMRS radio in his kayak so he will feel safe, I would argue that the radio on its own brings no pleasure and is, therefore, not part of the kayaking hobby, nor a hobby on its own.  However, if talking to others as they navigate the jeep trails enhances Marc's enjoyment of off-roading, GMRS might well be an integral part of his hobby. Whether GMRS is also a hobby on its own for Marc depends on the pleasure he derives from it when done in absence of other activities.

 

QED, YMMV  :P

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You said it's not a hobby, then listed a whole bunch of hobbies that it's used for, and then said those hobbies don't sound like hobbies. That's not an opinion... that is silliness.

Uh, no.... Those are sports... I was referring to the fact that the radio may be used for communications while one is participating in activities that may be hazardous in which someone may be put in a hazardous situation requiring assistance and the radio COULD be used for that purpose, which, is not a hobby. The Titanic operator was not signaling an SOS as a hobby, if that clears it up for you. I suppose at this point you yourself would call that business, though, but I am certain the titanic operator was thinking it was an emergency communication. Just saying.

 

I am thinking Marc may say that Disaster Prep is a hobby rather than a "task" in which one is "stacking the deck" in their family's survival. I guess as of late, with COVID-19 in the picture, one could call toilet paper collecting a hobby also.

 

Okay, Marc has a point.

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Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.

 

You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it? That makes as much sense as having somebody wait at a toll booth until the attendant decides to show up for work.

 

Suppose somebody takes the time to finally catch you on the air and ask. What exactly is accomplished? Does it satisfy the King? Does the King approve or will the King go have to chase a baofeng on vox that's been strapped to an ice cream truck because the King behaved like an Oaf? Let's be honest here. The only thing this permission thing is doing is feeding an ego.

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Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.

 

You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it? That makes as much sense as having somebody wait at a toll booth until the attendant decides to show up for work.

 

Suppose somebody takes the time to finally catch you on the air and ask. What exactly is accomplished? Does it satisfy the King? Does the King approve or will the King go have to chase a baofeng on vox that's been strapped to an ice cream truck because the King behaved like an Oaf? Let's be honest here. The only thing this permission thing is doing is feeding an ego.

 

That's crap post.  How would you like it if I just showed up at your house, decided to take your car to the grocery store and I didn't ask?  Its my property.  If you're not allowed to use my radio (repeater), too damn bad.  While the frequency is not in use by someone else, talk simplex and don't be a jerk about it.

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Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.

 

You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it? 

 

You seem to assume that repeaters were created in the first place for use by the general public. That is a fundamentally incorrect assumption. Yes, some people may create a repeater for public use, and plenty, maybe the majority, do not. It is impossible to really measure since we are unlikely to ever know about private repeaters that choose not to be listed somewhere. There are many. many GMRS repeaters with just a small handful of users, and that is the way those users want it. And that is their right according to the FCC regulations, which, other than power and certain technical aspects,  place no limitations on repeater deployment.

 

On the other hand, if you don't want to ask for permission to use some repeater, there is nothing to stop you from putting up your own repeater on the same channel pair. Of course, you'd have to use a different PL to avoid interfering, but that's it.

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...there is nothing to stop you from putting up your own repeater on the same channel pair. Of course, you'd have to use a different PL to avoid interfering, but that's it.

 

Exactly... all of the channels are limited resources with all of us sharing.  That is why we use analog tone squelching and digital tone squelching.  There are as many as 3 publicly shared repeaters per pair within communications distance of my house, all using different tone squelching.  And who knows how many private systems.

 

There are so many other answers beyond intruding on a private owner.

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That's crap post.  How would you like it if I just showed up at your house, decided to take your car to the grocery store and I didn't ask?  Its my property.  If you're not allowed to use my radio (repeater), too damn bad.  While the frequency is not in use by someone else, talk simplex and don't be a jerk about it.

Sorry man, I disagree. I also disagree with your example. Your example of using somebodies house is a crap post. GMRS is not a private business license. It's more akin of a public park that has an entrance admission.

 

It's you gear and your entitled to do as you wish but I stand my ground that the overall attitude of doing that is crap.

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You seem to assume that repeaters were created in the first place for use by the general public. That is a fundamentally incorrect assumption.

I'm not assuming, I'm clearly stating that the overall attitude of how repeaters are handled on GMRS stinks. Plain and simple. It's an elitist mentality that makes it unwelcoming to others. If you want privacy, get a business license.

 

Do repeaters cost money? Sure they do. I've built and maintained many ham machines myself. You want to talk about expense, go price out a set of new cans for a VHF machine. They'll cost more than a full turnkey GMRS repeater.

 

At the end of the day, what does getting people to find you to ask for permission do for you? Does it stroke the ego? All else aside, we both know that the "yes" will come out much more often than the "no" out of concern that you may have just created your next jammer. So given that this is all a song and dance, why not spare everyone the trouble and just not worry about it?

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I'm not assuming, I'm clearly stating that the overall attitude of how repeaters are handled on GMRS stinks. Plain and simple. It's an elitist mentality that makes it unwelcoming to others. If you want privacy, get a business license.

 

Do repeaters cost money? Sure they do. I've built and maintained many ham machines myself. You want to talk about expense, go price out a set of new cans for a VHF machine. They'll cost more than a full turnkey GMRS repeater.

 

At the end of the day, what does getting people to find you to ask for permission do for you? Does it stroke the ego? All else aside, we both know that the "yes" will come out much more often than the "no" out of concern that you may have just created your next jammer. So given that this is all a song and dance, why not spare everyone the trouble and just not worry about it?

 

No, it doesn't strike the ego, it leaves the repeater free for your own use, and for your family, if that is why you set it up. 

 

Someone may want for people to ask permission, so they can limit who uses it, and for what purpose, so they do not get abusive people on their repeater. Some people can be quite obnoxious. 

 

No, they do not own the frequency, and as others have stated, you are free to use that frequency as well, so set up your own repeater, and leave it open to the public if you feel so strongly about it. It isn't that they have the right to keep people off that frequency, but they do have the right, and some may say the responsibility to govern who uses their transmitting equipment, since they can possibly be held liable for other people's misuse of the system. I know I wouldn't want people to use my repeater in a matter that violates FCC regulations. In the end, it is their equipment, and they do not have to let you use it. Set up your own. 

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I'm not assuming, ...

At the end of the day, what does getting people to find you to ask for permission do for you? Does it stroke the ego? All else aside, we both know that the "yes" will come out much more often than the "no" out of concern that you may have just created your next jammer. So given that this is all a song and dance, why not spare everyone the trouble and just not worry about it?

Not assuming? Yes you are. You even boldly state so. You clearly assume I, as the owner of a repeater want to be contacted. For thousands of repeater owners that is not even remotely true. In fact, it is the exact opposite. They do not want to be contacted. That is why their repeaters are not listed.

 

Please, have your own opinions on all kinds of topics. But, when you start speculating about the values and motives of people you have never met and then lump then into one great group, that is when you really should start keeping your opinion to yourself.

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I submitted today a topic as a similar question.  I have been licensed in GMRS for a while, on my second call-sign as well.  I own my own repeater.  My issue is people have repeaters up and running, cool..  We all have to share a very limited number of channels, ok...  WHY would you use the known TRAVEL TONE 141.3Hz for a repeater and ask someone email for permission.  If you want someone to ASK to use it, make it a different tone.  Come on...  Common sense people.  The argument about have lots of $ tied up in it are not adequate as even if nobody used it you would still have that tied up in it, AND it wouldn't interfere with those machines allowing access to all.  I have issues with people putting up repeaters on channels and not simply listening to that channel and/or even checking if that same tone is already in use.  I can hit multiple repeaters on the SAME channel and the SAME tone in several places.  If people would simply use a little common sense and decency in GMRS repeater use "that means the owners" and ensure your repeater wont clash with anthers then you have no room to talk or negatively comment on people using a repeater without asking for its use and get off the travel tone.  Not trying to start an argument but I find this very irritating, I have to cut communications short because of this issue and it is easily fixable.

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You hit on a lot if good points... most of which are born from new people who have no idea what they are doing and decided they want a repeater.

 

How can you expect a new operator to know not to use the travel tone when they never heard of ORI? Not to bash any new people... I'm glad they come here for help and I love helping, but I lost count of new operators that dont know how to program their own radio to use a repeater. Yet, some of these same people stand up a poor-man repeater 3 weeks later.

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Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.

If you wanted to use my car for something, would you just take it? It exactly the same thing, but at the end of the day, those repeaters are privately owned, whether it’s a business license or not, There’s nothing in 95E which states that a repeater owner is obliged to allow unlimited access to the repeater,

 

You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it?

Funny… I’ve obtained permission on multiple repeaters and networks and never once did it that way.

 

The only thing this permission thing is doing is feeding an ego.

Okay, you can believe whatever you’d like, and believe that past experiences with squatters and other unauthorized users and the liabilities placed on repeater owners never played into any of it. And maybe there are some instances where you’re right. At the end of the day, it’s their repeater and theirs to choose. And if someone’s response to being told no would be to troll the repeater (such as the BaoFeng on fox example you cited), then you made a much better case for repeaters requiring permission than you did for ORI.

 

How can you expect a new operator to know not to use the travel tone when they never heard of ORI? Not to bash any new people... I'm glad they come here for help and I love helping, but I lost count of new operators that dont know how to program their own radio to use a repeater. Yet, some of these same people stand up a poor-man repeater 3 weeks later.

My phone (and the phones that most of your new operators will have) possesses more computing power than the first computers which took up and area the size of a hockey rink, plus Internet access to boot. The Information Age is a double edged sword. It made a lot more resources much more readily available to a lot more people, but I also feel like it made people a lot more lazy overall and apt to expecting everything to be dropped into their lap. For me, getting into this was stupid simple. One day, I fired up and old police scanner I had bought back when I was 16. Among others, I had the GMRS frequencies in there. I heard traffic with call signs on 462.600, so I got on Google and searched for “462.600 Denver” and guess where it led me? I listened some more then decided to get my license. I find it just a little difficult to believe that someone can, at the same time, possess enough Internet savvy to go through the process of obtaining an FRN then a GMRS license, yet not be able to use a little basic Google-Fu to find a site such as this one.

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I find it just a little difficult to believe that someone can, at the same time, possess enough Internet savvy to go through the process of obtaining an FRN then a GMRS license, yet not be able to use a little basic Google-Fu to find a site such as this one.

I understand where you are coming from. Let me share one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...

 

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

 

While I don't know that he said it, the statement is still applicable to humans and our capacity to think. LoL It sounds like you're fortunate and have a knack for this stuff. Maybe the others that don't, Google gave them us.

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I understand where you are coming from. Let me share one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...

 

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

 

While I don't know that he said it, the statement is still applicable to humans and our capacity to think. LoL It sounds like you're fortunate and have a knack for this stuff. Maybe the others that don't, Google gave them us.

The adage certainly fits. All the same, I don’t think I’m possessed of any particular savvy for it. The FCC site isn’t the easiest to navigate through… certainly not as easy as Google. You have this site, GMRS groups on Facebook, a GMRS topic on Reddit, etc. I don’t think it’s a matter of people being unable, just lazy/unwilling. Makes me think to when you had to seek out print fanzines to keep up with what was going on in the heavy metal scene, because MTV was hung up on glam crap, so you couldn’t count on them. Then came the Internet, and it became much more accessible, and more people got into it, but they never really had the desire to expand on it because it was all just dropped in their lap for them. The same difference between how someone who aspired to be a professional chef and went through the steps to get there will look at all things culinary in a much different manner than I will with my air fryer (that being said, I love my air fryer still). And here we are now. On top of that, you have a bunch of people who remain willfully ignorant, e.g., people who aren’t even licensed but they’ll set up a repeater and try claiming a channel is “reserved” for their use. GMRS has been one of those most abused radio services, and the FCC hasn’t been helpful in trying to mitigate it at all. Makes me wonder if they’re trying to see it done away with.

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... one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

While I don't know that he said it...

 

That saying is attributed to Einstein by author Frederick Perls. But, AFAIK there is no quote or written reference directly from Einstein.  Also, it appears that while Einstein may well have uttered those words, he was certainly not the first person to have made the observation.

 

See: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18140/did-einstein-say-two-things-are-infinite-the-universe-and-human-stupidity-and

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Greetings all.

 

I've been following the GMRS world for a bit and finally got a GMRS license. I've been a ham since 1994 and was a cb'er prior to that. One thing that has struck me really odd about this aspect of the radio hobby is the widespread need for asking for permission before using a repeater.

 

Yes, I know repeaters cost money. I'm currently the trustee of a large footprint ham repeater in Miami. As ham radio hobbyist, we put up repeaters for the benefit of the hobby and all users are welcomed without prior consent. You basically have to work at getting thrown off a ham repeater. Why is common practice on GMRS so... unwelcoming... for lack of better words?

I have been an Amateur for 20 years and had a 70 cm repeater up until lightning took it out. I have 3 GMRS repeaters. I only require permission for one reason. I want to verify a valid license for the user. I've never denied anyone permission to use any of them. I do restrict one of them to Emergency use or roadside assistance because it is an older machine, and keeping traffic on it low to make it last longer.

I only want to know something about my users, and verify a valid license. With the proliferation of the Chinese dual banders, anyone with $40 can access my machines and make up a call. I've seen this happen on amateur repeaters. Call me cautious.

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The North Shore Emergency Association (NSEA) in NE Chicagoland has several repeaters on the air. The primary one uses the Travel Tone 141.3 and is open for any traveler to use to ask for assistance, emergencies, and such.

 

But to use the repeater if one is a resident of the Chicago area, one must become a member of NSEA. There are no dues or other expenses, simply a free membership, and a valid, current GMRS license. At one time NSEA had a very hi-profile repeater located at the top of the (then) Hancock building. Unfortunately the owner/operator changed jobs and had to remove the repeater from that truly awesome location. The antenna was at 1,030' AGL.

 

There are at least a dozen other GMRS repeaters in the immediate area, most of which are low-powered, low-profile family only repeaters, and at least five hi-profile, legal limit repeaters with a huge footprint available -- with permission. Each of these require permission from folks who live in the area, but are open for transient use by folks travelling through the area.

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