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How to End Drama With Other Radio users. Who Don't Understand To a Newbie


DelcoLucas121
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Well, FCC governs that GMRS frequencies are not owned by a single entity or group. Thus the frequencies are open to ALL licensed GMRS operators.

Equipment however is another story. Repeaters are privately owned, and those owners have say on who can use their repeaters. Thus it is the only time I think someone can tell you not to use a specific frequency/code combo outside of emergency's (Emergency radio traffic ALWAYS has priority)

Now, that being said, if you are building a repeater and another local repeater is using 725, it would be rude of you to put your repeater on that frequency. The reason is that unlike your portable/mobile radios where all you need to do is change channel or codes, repeaters are a bit more work, often requiring a shop to come in and service the system to change the frequency. Physical programing of the RX/TX radio can be done by the end user, however filters, duplexers, and the like often cannot be done without proper equipment. Then, if the repeater has been established over many years, there are all the users who also have to change their programming to ensure they continue using the same system as well. This would be another reason why someone would tell you not to use a frequency, though for this one they don't exactly have legal authority to do so. I can say that if you do intentionally "build over" another system and cause enough interference, it wouldn't bode well for your system as you'll find people intentionally jamming your system, making it useless.

My thoughts are, you should do research BEFORE finalizing on your repeater build. Check on what repeaters are in the area, up to 30 miles away if your not in the city. Consider those frequencies likely dead. Take the frequencies that remain and monitor them for about 30 days (If you have a scanner with a hit counter set it up to scan the input/out put frequencies and leave the volume low) Those channels that seem to have very high traffic flow on them should be avoided as they likely are used by unlisted repeaters.

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Thank you. There seems to be a couple different 5750 Systems that are looking at that have never been used that are pretty much ghost Systems unknown if their owned by someone or if it's on a repeater that has more than one channel program in. . like the repeater I use from the next town over for me is A FR4000 Kenwood I believe repeater that can probably do 16 channels with some kind of duplexer. Like the ones you see in actual public safety sites ones. However I do monitor a lot of 6000 and 7000 and I believe 675 all around my stubborn area and I have heard nothing at all of them.. I believe Shepherd machine which is Delaware 953 Guy. Has That off if I'm mistaking.. but I've all those three frequencies that I monitor nothing. .

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From the perspective a GMRS repeater user (not owner) I do not want competing repeaters (same frequency, high-percentage coverage overlap). There are few reasons for this.

 

First, when someone is using repeater A, someone else should not be using repeater B, as the signal out from repeater A and B is going to mix in the air leading to unusable audio throughout a big part of the overlap zone. This means bad experience for the GMRS users.

 

Second, depending upon where the persons are that are using the repeater, it is also probable that the signals at the input to the repeater are going to mix sufficiently that potentially neither repeater will open up, or when one does open up the input signal is degraded sufficiently enough that the repeater retransmits a signal with poor audio.

 

Third, since the two repeaters will at times lead to interference, the users of the repeaters will have to wait for conversations to end on one repeater in order to use the other if they do not want to be the recipient of interference or the creator of interference.

 

In the event of sufficient complaints to the FCC that it causes them to act, one or both parties are going to ordered to work it out (what you should do now before putting it up) or prescribe that one or more parties lower their antenna and/or transmit power, or prescribe which hours of the day each repeater may be active.

 

In the LMR and Amateur radio world there are frequency coordinators that work the logistics up front so as to avoid the issues. In GMRS is up to the individual licensees to coordinate amongst themselves. At a minimum, IMO, a new repeater owner should at least be courteous enough to choose and use a frequency that is not already substantially served in the effective coverage area of the proposed new repeater.

 

By Example. In Cincinnati Ohio there are multiple ‘700’ repeaters. Two of them fairly high profile, both with different PL of course. I have experienced the issues described above first hand both has merely as listener as well as the person wanting to talk.

 

Just one man’s opinion.

 

Merry Christmas All!

 

Regards,

 

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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In sparsely inhabited areas of the US, it is possible and desirable to coordinate repeater systems. However, in more populated areas that is not possible and you will find many cases of multiple repeaters on the same frequency, though with different access control schemes.  People do try to limit their coverage to the smallest area possible by adjusting antenna type and location and power level.  However, everyone understands the situation and that is just the way it is.

 

So, I would say try the following, in order:

  1. Make sure you really need your own repeater. Maybe you can join or cooperate with an existing operator
  2. Find an unoccupied channel
  3. Find the occupied channel with the least overlap to your site and pick access codes that are different from other repeaters on the same channel.
  4. Run the lowest power possible
  5. Adjust/select your antenna and its placement to limit coverage to the smallest area that meets your needs

It also pays to understand how UHF works in terms of things like propagation, capture effect and polarity and design your system to take best advantage of the band.

And, finally, be prepared to experience occasional, or even frequent, interference on your input frequency.

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From the perspective a GMRS repeater user (not owner) I do not want competing repeaters (same frequency, high-percentage coverage overlap). There are few reasons for this.

 

First, when someone is using repeater A, someone else should not be using repeater B, as the signal out from repeater A and B is going to mix in the air leading to unusable audio throughout a big part of the overlap zone. This means bad experience for the GMRS users.

Actually, this is a thing in commercial radio and has been for many years.  While no one typically bothers, all part 90 radios have a "hub defeats PL" setting that when you pickup the microphone the PL is disabled on the radio and you will hear any other user on the frequency.  Also, radios can be programmed for carrier detect.  What that does is when there is a carrier received by the radio, regardless of PL / DPL the radio will not transmit.  It waits for teh frequency to be clear before you can attempt to use it.

 

Second, depending upon where the persons are that are using the repeater, it is also probable that the signals at the input to the repeater are going to mix sufficiently that potentially neither repeater will open up, or when one does open up the input signal is degraded sufficiently enough that the repeater retransmits a signal with poor audio.

Very true, and if you have both repeaters being received and the PL is decoded from the repeater that you are expecting to talk on you will hear bits of both conversations, but none or it will be intelligible. 

 

Third, since the two repeaters will at times lead to interference, the users of the repeaters will have to wait for conversations to end on one repeater in order to use the other if they do not want to be the recipient of interference or the creator of interference.

 

In the event of sufficient complaints to the FCC that it causes them to act, one or both parties are going to ordered to work it out (what you should do now before putting it up) or prescribe that one or more parties lower their antenna and/or transmit power, or prescribe which hours of the day each repeater may be active.

 

In the LMR and Amateur radio world there are frequency coordinators that work the logistics up front so as to avoid the issues. In GMRS is up to the individual licensees to coordinate amongst themselves. At a minimum, IMO, a new repeater owner should at least be courteous enough to choose and use a frequency that is not already substantially served in the effective coverage area of the proposed new repeater.

 

By Example. In Cincinnati Ohio there are multiple ‘700’ repeaters. Two of them fairly high profile, both with different PL of course. I have experienced the issues described above first hand both has merely as listener as well as the person wanting to talk.

 

Just one man’s opinion.

 

Merry Christmas All!

 

Regards,

 

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

See notes above.

 

One option that no one seems to be bringing to the table is this.

If you know there is a repeater that is in the coverage area of the repeater you are wanting to construct, and your repeaters design footprint will cover the existing foot print of the other repeater (IE existing repeater is on a 20 foot pole and you are going on a 100 foot tower) then it's best to just contact the owner of the current repeater and offer to provide them with access to YOUR repeater and have him power his down.  Then he gets to enjoy the extended coverage of your equipment at no cost and you get to build out your equipment to the coverage area that you had intended.  I will add that if the user is running a PL / DPL currently, it would be advisable that if they agree to the arrangement, you adopt that PL/DPL on your install so the current user doesn't need to reprogram his equipment to access your gear.  Another option, for 'privacy' is using what the commercial radio folks would call a 'community repeater'.  There is some additional programming that goes into this.  First is the carrier detect for transmit. So that a radio attempting to access the repeater will hear it is busy with the other PL and not transmit.  The second is PL hub defeat.  Again, when you pick up the mike to talk, the PL filter disables, which allows you to hear that the repeater is in use.  Lastly is the repeater you are using have the community repeater option in it.  Kenwood repeaters came with this typically,  Motorola repeaters made it an option that you had to purchase.  Another option is running a repeater controller designed for this use, where the controller controls the repeater and monitors for the correct PL's that it's programmed for. 

 

All that being said, if the current repeater is a busy repeater with a lot of traffic, you are far better off to select a different repeater pair that has less traffic and then make the same offer to that owner.  I would think that most guys will jump at the chance to get extended coverage for no cost. 

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