Transmit w/o Load/Antenna

[Extreme]

Some debate on this one.  I'm not smellin' what he's steppin' in.

In a nutshell he says transmitting w/o Load will not damage a radio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3r2K96hsGc&t=297s&ab_channel=NotaRubiconProductions

 

[OffRoaderX]

That guy is a clown, but let me explain what he is saying - since "some people" have a real problem grasping the underlaying message because it is not spelled-out literally enough for their defective brains to process.

If you go online (in this forum for example, other forums, YouTube comments, reddit, etc)  "some people" teach us that if you ever transmit without an antenna, for any length of time, ever, in any way, it will destroy, or at a minimum damage your radio - No ifs, ands or butts:  push button with no antenna = destroyed radio.

That video, and the video demonstrating the same thing on an HT (both videos use the "cheap Chinese junk"/CCR radios), show that the common lore of "push button no antenna = dead radio" is not necessarily true.

The video does not suggest that people try it, or make a habit of doing it, it specifically says to NOT do it.  The video simply demonstrates that the common internet lore spread by "experts", has at least a few exceptions.  But unfortunately "some people" interpret the video as "he says you should always use your radio with no antenna" - which, if they actually watched the video and understand the English language, they would understand that is not what was said or even inferred.

Both the "experts" and "some people" have come out of the wood-work in the comments on both videos explaining all the reasons, exceptions, etc, why neither of the test radios were damaged - all proving the point that they are trying to disprove.

Also, FYI, it seems that it is "some people" that seem to be upset/most angry about the video - claiming fraud, trick editing, other fairy-tales, which is very entertaining - its as though their worlds just fell apart.

[PACNWComms]

For newer/better made radios, this is true.....you can get away with transmitting without a load......as he shows in the video. However, it is bad practice as he is stressing that protection function. This could result in damage if the user takes this practice to a radio or other RF type of device (test equipment, and setting combiners or du/multiplexers) that does not have this protection function. This is also why many radios still have a default or "as shipped" setting for a transmit "Timeout Timer" that is usually set for 60 seconds. This also prevents hot mic conditions as well. While the advice in the video is correct in this case.....he may be responsible for many people who may try this with older equipment, rendering it useless, or adjusting their gear with less precision and accuracy as a result. There is a reason that many radio related test procedures start with connecting a 50 Ohm dummy load, or using a specific amount of attenuation. 

My professional radio related experience began with heavy transportable military (Raytheon) satellite communications terminals. These terminals requires 50 Ohm dummy loads, a specific (lowest necessary) transmit power and frequency, and adjustments to be made while transmitting, with a note to transmit for as short a time as it was necessary to get a good reading or adjustment. Then double check after letting the gear cool down at bit. After twenty years, the shift is now to transmit at max power (off satellite of course) and adjust attenuation to bring power output down. This is contrary to how it was done in the past, but not wrong for current equipment.

As for heat, well I have used thermal images to identify antennas on board large vessels, by having someone key up the radio and looking at which antenna gets warm. Many of the ships I worked on had up to fifty antennas spread across them, and with that antenna farm, looking at the heat signature was the best way to map out which radio was in use.

[OffRoaderX]

2 minutes ago, PACNWComms said:

he may be responsible for many people who may try this with older equipment, rendering it useless, or adjusting their gear with less precision and accuracy as a result.

The only people responsible for people who try this are the people that try this.

[Sshannon]

56 minutes ago, PACNWComms said:

For newer/better made radios, this is true.....you can get away with transmitting without a load......as he shows in the video. However, it is bad practice as he is stressing that protection function. This could result in damage if the user takes this practice to a radio or other RF type of device (test equipment, and setting combiners or du/multiplexers) that does not have this protection function. This is also why many radios still have a default or "as shipped" setting for a transmit "Timeout Timer" that is usually set for 60 seconds. This also prevents hot mic conditions as well. While the advice in the video is correct in this case.....he may be responsible for many people who may try this with older equipment, rendering it useless, or adjusting their gear with less precision and accuracy as a result. There is a reason that many radio related test procedures start with connecting a 50 Ohm dummy load, or using a specific amount of attenuation. 

My professional radio related experience began with heavy transportable military (Raytheon) satellite communications terminals. These terminals requires 50 Ohm dummy loads, a specific (lowest necessary) transmit power and frequency, and adjustments to be made while transmitting, with a note to transmit for as short a time as it was necessary to get a good reading or adjustment. Then double check after letting the gear cool down at bit. After twenty years, the shift is now to transmit at max power (off satellite of course) and adjust attenuation to bring power output down. This is contrary to how it was done in the past, but not wrong for current equipment.

As for heat, well I have used thermal images to identify antennas on board large vessels, by having someone key up the radio and looking at which antenna gets warm. Many of the ships I worked on had up to fifty antennas spread across them, and with that antenna farm, looking at the heat signature was the best way to map out which radio was in use.

I greatly enjoyed reading this post and I love hearing about your military experiences. But I have to agree with OffroadX that people are responsible for their own actions, especially when it comes to emulating someone on the internet. There are far more authoritative warnings against transmitting into an infinite impedance than the examples his two videos show.   

[PACNWComms]

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions. Now, where do they get the idea to do certain things.....often times other people. Take what someone else says for what it is worth, an opinion. That applies on these forums, on YouTube videos, and everywhere else in life. This is yet another example of the "ham radio mindset" just in this forum instead of YouTube in this case.

[wayoverthere]

17 hours ago, PACNWComms said:

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions. Now, where do they get the idea to do certain things.....often times other people. Take what someone else says for what it is worth, an opinion. That applies on these forums, on YouTube videos, and everywhere else in life. This is yet another example of the "ham radio mindset" just in this forum instead of YouTube in this case.

I'm reminded of a story I saw recently of someone leaving Alexa to babysit their kid, for the most part, with the kid amused to ask Alexa to 'give me a challenge'.  Too soon, Alexa strayed into the dregs of the internet and brought up something akin to "try to fit a fork in the electrical socket", with mom blaming Amazon for the content, and "I thought it was safe".

[Lscott]

15 hours ago, PACNWComms said:

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions. Now, where do they get the idea to do certain things.....

And people wonder why older folks don't give a crap about opinions from the "Tide-Pod" eating generation.

[MichaelLAX]

Some people mistakenly think that not warning you about a real danger is the same thing as warning you of a non-existent danger.

[marcspaz]

Subbed

[RangeRover02]

Buyer Beware!

[OldRadioGuy]

Transmitting with no load is a very different thing depending on the length of coax connected to the radio. 

An open circuit plus 1/4 wavelength of coax equals a short circuit.   Any odd number of 1/4 wavelengths will look like a short.  So the load seen by the transmitter can vary a great deal.  Some lengths could possibly make the transmitter unstable causing it to oscillate at some other frequency.  But this is somewhat less likely in newer radios where device parasitics are much lower today.  But it's still possible.  Note: 1/4 wave at 460MHz is about 5 inches.  Remember that wavelengths are shorter in coax than in free air.  You have to multiply by the velocity factor for the particular coax.... usually around 65-75%. 

When there is nothing connected to an HT it's likely to look like an open circuit since the transmitter circuits are likely very close to the connector.  So this would be one of the safer no-load conditions.   I suppose the worst case would be an apparent short circuit that may cause overcurrent but today's transistors are much more rugged than the ones of the 1970's.  And, since your radio probably uses a switching power converter it's unlikely to provide enough current to cause any damage.  Of course we are talking about hand held radios here.  

I would not key a transmitter intentionally into an unknown load but I would not worry about doing it unintentionally for a short period of time.   It certainly can happen for a variety of reasons, like forgetting to replace the antenna after a car wash or something.  Most legitimate radio designs would handle this fine.  Designers are aware that this happens.   

 

[Coffeemaker]

On 1/30/2022 at 1:26 PM, Extreme said:

Some debate on this one.  I'm not smellin' what he's steppin' in.

In a nutshell he says transmitting w/o Load will not damage a radio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3r2K96hsGc&t=297s&ab_channel=NotaRubiconProductions

 

You won't transmit very far, but until the output stage/output transistors overheat, it shouldn't hurt a thing.  With old tube gear and maybe output transformers, I have no idea. 

[mbrun]

I was out for one of my daily walks. My wife tried to reach me off and one for about 15 minutes. Hearing no response she gave up and went looking for me. She found me safe and sound with radio in hand still walking but asked why I did not respond. I apologized but informed her that I did not hear the calls over the radio. Despite the base radio being set correctly when I got home, no dice, no Tx. Turned out I was at fault. I had disconnected the antenna from the radio the night before doing some testing and apparently I had forgotten to reattach. At 50w the radio survived the periodic calls.

Sure is a good thing I did not do that on the day I had her read the whole US constitution over the air while I checked coverage in our area for about an hour.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[WROZ250]

8 hours ago, Coffeemaker said:

You won't transmit very far, but until the output stage/output transistors overheat, it shouldn't hurt a thing.  With old tube gear and maybe output transformers, I have no idea. 

As has been said, with an open load (no antenna), most radios will be fine.  However as OldRadioGuy noted, having the line unterminated (no Antenna/Load) at the magical 1/4 wave (or odd multiples thereof) it is 'more likely' to damage the radio, as the end of an open 1/4 wave of coax appears as a short to RF. 

Also, I keep seeing people say things about tube radios and the no or bad antenna scenario. However, the vast majority of old tube rigs could tolerate some pretty bad loads.  Sure, some could fail, but most just turned funny colors and got hot.  That said, doing that repeatedly or for long periods of time did tend to weaken a tube, and eventually cause it to fail prematurely.  Tubes in general, were very forgiving.

 

[PACNWComms]

4 hours ago, WROZ250 said:

Tubes in general, were very forgiving.

I have a 1941 Coronado LP record player/AM radio that still works, a testament to the use of tube construction and quality of manufacture. Granted it is only a receiver, but I have a much newer Courier 23 CB radio, tubes have not changed color (always transmit with an appropriate antenna) and only very light flaking on the chrome mess case. As you said, tubes were very forgiving. 

[WROZ250]

3 hours ago, PACNWComms said:

I have a 1941 Coronado LP record player/AM radio that still works, a testament to the use of tube construction and quality of manufacture. Granted it is only a receiver, but I have a much newer Courier 23 CB radio, tubes have not changed color (always transmit with an appropriate antenna) and only very light flaking on the chrome mess case. As you said, tubes were very forgiving.

Very Nice!!!  There is just something about the old tube radios (Real Radios Glow In The Dark?).

Never been big on CB, but I do love the old classics that had tubes!