How did China corner the GMRS market, and why?

[WRQV528]

(This was going to be a reply to one of @OffRoaderX's most recent video and associated forum topic, but I felt like I would be hijacking the thread so I made a new topic instead.)

 

For a while I've found it odd that the most feature-rich and/or popular GMRS radios are designed and engineered in China. To be sure, born and bred Chinese brands that have a foothold outside of their mainland are not really new, but I have never heard of born and bred Chinese brands quickly rising to prominence in a market that is entirely foreign to them and relatively new, which in this case are GMRS radios made after the Part 95 reform of 2017.

Maybe this is hyperbole, but in a sense it seems analogous to the Japanese takeover of the American automobile market: I get the impression that they seem to have a sizable market share, while some of the more well-known names in radio equipment, both American and (non-Chinese) foreign, seem to be idling and have yet to release products that are competitive in terms of feature set, (arguably) build quality, and price, with Midland and Motorola being the only competitors I can think of that are manufacturing GMRS radios at all.

Does anyone have any insight or history as to how and why the GMRS market seems to have been cornered these days by the Chinese?

Edited June 21, 2022 by WRQV528
Posted actual topic.

[Sshannon]

Price

[OffRoaderX]

Thank you for not HiJakkin me..

Easy answer:  By making decent (not the best) radios and selling them for low-dollars..

And they can do this because of no unions, less/no environmental restrictions, government subsidies ENCOURAGING manufacturing, no/few child labor regulations, etc.. Basically the opposite of what you find in the U.S.

[jgillaspy]

Even in the amateur radio world there are only a couple of Manufacturers that produce in the USA. They are VERY expensive.

JG

[TNRonin]

I would have gladly bought American if they existed and at a price point that was competitive.

Sent from my SM-T860 using Tapatalk

[Gearhead]

I'm old enough to remember when the sad hams laughed at all "that cheap Japanese garbage" that began to flood the market back in the early seventies.  They all said, that "junk" would never replace their Hammerlunds, Hallicrafters, Drakes and Swans because "merica" was the king.  By 1980 they were no longer laughing and all those great American companies had been relegated to the dustbin of history.  Today the Chinese are doing the same thing.  In a few short years their quality has improved and they actually listen to customers and try to give them the features they want at a price they can afford.

It's sad that this country can't seem to make anything nowdays...not even toilet paper.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Gearhead

[kerstuff]

All this country can make is Debt!!!

[marcspaz]

As everyone else pointed out... it comes down to price.  A great example in the amateur world is the Ten-Tec 588 that starts at $2,700 vs the Yaesu FTDX-10 that does the same things for $1,400.  Or the FT-991A which has most of the same features (less power/portable platform) plus VHF and UHF AND is not a ROC, but rather a much, much better triple-conversion superheterodyne receiver with excellent filtering for $1,200.

 

I really like Mike and I am thrilled he kept a Tennessee based company alive, but I can buy 3 Japanese radios for 1 of his.

[Radioguy7268]

7 hours ago, Gearhead said:

... because "merica" was the king.  By 1980 they were no longer laughing and all those great American companies had been regulated to the dustbin of history. 

 

I think you might have meant to say "relegated" to the dustbin of history, but over regulation will get you to the same place

[Gearhead]

Radioguy, some days I can't spell for crap. 

[gman1971]

Price, absolutely. Unfortunately, once their radios start to cope with the best of the best, price will be similar, so it won't be CCR anymore. 

They can do it b/c you are talking about employees being paid several thousands of dollars a month, vs employees being paid, if that, several thousands a year. So, the cost of living hasn't caught up there, yet, but it will eventually happen, and maybe the Baofengs will still be around, maybe not, but there will be the same thing as Japanese in the 70s-80s... however, I think that was a different situation than what we are in right now. Feels like in the 70s/80s the US failed to embrace the mass producing ideas they put into practice when Japan was rebuilt after WW2...

Its hard to compete against someone who steals your tech and packages it and sells it for 1/100th of the price...

 

G.

[wayoverthere]

On 6/21/2022 at 4:29 PM, TNRonin said:

I would have gladly bought American if they existed and at a price point that was competitive.

that's the thing; i'd submit that other than feature limited gear (Midland, and the very bottom of Motorola's product line), the manufacturers basically abandoned the GMRS market.  there may be a couple/few grandfathered Motorola and/or Kenwood commercial models out there still sold new, but with model changes/upgrades/replacement, i suspect most/all of those have gone EOL, and they don't seem interested in dual certifying anymore.

the market was wide open for whoever was willing to make radios for it, good or bad.

[gman1971]

18 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

that's the thing; i'd submit that other than feature limited gear (Midland, and the very bottom of Motorola's product line), the manufacturers basically abandoned the GMRS market.  there may be a couple/few grandfathered Motorola and/or Kenwood commercial models out there still sold new, but with model changes/upgrades/replacement, i suspect most/all of those have gone EOL, and they don't seem interested in dual certifying anymore.

the market was wide open for whoever was willing to make radios for it, good or bad.

Absolutely, the CCRs took the market by storm. And back in 2017ish, at 9.95 for a BF-888s with Prime, shipped to your home was a thing... and I bought like 20 of those... which, at the time, If you needed something to get you by, without having to deal with old/used stuff, that was pretty much unbeatable. During that time, most of the stuff worth owning from Motorola was quite expensive too... maybe the XPR6550 was somewhat affordable, but even that was still quite expensive at the time.

Well, the same fate that happened to the US companies in the 70s/80s when the Japanese flooded the market with cheaper radios, its happening now to Japanese companies as well... Japanese people nowadays make a lot of money a year too, so the cheap inrush of radio stuff is no more... and Japan is now more like the US in terms of pay, and for any decent radio they make, its priced accordingly... you won't find any NX-5200 for 49.95 + Prime, that is for sure.

Uncertain where/how the bottom of the barrel Motorola stands in terms of performance... maybe its worth owning some, at least given the expensive prices of even the CCRs are going for right now. 

The old Moto stuff if you can find good deals is really hard to beat. Sure, I am not going to argue that it will require some time investment to grasp the CPS and the other stuff that would've came pre-programmed on dedicated GMRS radios... but again, it would also seem that a lot of the people who post here are also radioaficionados too, so having to program a more complex CPS shouldn't be too bad... IMO.

Now, for people who are not into radios at all, etc, I wouldn't recommend anything that requires any sort of tinkering.... just get the beers and pretzels Walmart Midland bubble pack and don't look back... 

I'd still take a Midland over non American brands... even if Midland is ultimately made in China... 

G.

[wayoverthere]

4 hours ago, gman1971 said:

Uncertain where/how the bottom of the barrel Motorola stands in terms of performance... maybe its worth owning some, at least given the expensive prices of even the CCRs are going for right now

Yeah, I'm not sure where they stand either, other than no repeater access, similar to Midland HTs.

I had things like the Talkabouts in mind (branded Motorola, but are they even made by?) with the 'bottom of the line' comment...bubble pack class.

[gman1971]

5 hours ago, wayoverthere said:

Yeah, I'm not sure where they stand either, other than no repeater access, similar to Midland HTs.

I had things like the Talkabouts in mind (branded Motorola, but are they even made by?) with the 'bottom of the line' comment...bubble pack class.

The "bottom line", or the "bottom of the line"... pick your poison...

G.

[wayoverthere]

30 minutes ago, gman1971 said:

The "bottom line", or the "bottom of the line"... pick your poison...

G.

we can see which poison i've chosen...tinkering.  better half asked me the other day..."when did you get so many radios?"

[jerrym58]

On 6/21/2022 at 3:35 PM, WRQV528 said:

(This was going to be a reply to one of @OffRoaderX's most recent video and associated forum topic, but I felt like I would be hijacking the thread so I made a new topic instead.)

 

For a while I've found it odd that the most feature-rich and/or popular GMRS radios are designed and engineered in China. To be sure, born and bred Chinese brands that have a foothold outside of their mainland are not really new, but I have never heard of born and bred Chinese brands quickly rising to prominence in a market that is entirely foreign to them and relatively new, which in this case are GMRS radios made after the Part 95 reform of 2017.

Maybe this is hyperbole, but in a sense it seems analogous to the Japanese takeover of the American automobile market: I get the impression that they seem to have a sizable market share, while some of the more well-known names in radio equipment, both American and (non-Chinese) foreign, seem to be idling and have yet to release products that are competitive in terms of feature set, (arguably) build quality, and price, with Midland and Motorola being the only competitors I can think of that are manufacturing GMRS radios at all.

Does anyone have any insight or history as to how and why the GMRS market seems to have been cornered these days by the Chinese?

I have no idea but Motorola doesn't even make a repeater-capable radio that is FCC certified for Part 95E GMRS even though nearly all of their UHF Part 90 radios will work great on GMRS if programmed correctly.

[Lscott]

IMHO I don't think they cornered the market as much as the main stream manufactures simply abandoned it. The main stream manufactures likely have higher profit margins on their commercial gear and don't want to get involved in the cut throat consumer market where the prices do nothing but drop. Government agencies and business have a lot more money to spend than the average Joe-six-pack. That's where they do the bulk of their business.

[tweiss3]

26 minutes ago, Lscott said:

IMHO I don't think they cornered the market as much as the main stream manufactures simply abandoned it. The main stream manufactures likely have higher profit margins on their commercial gear and don't want to get involved in the cut throat consumer market where the prices do nothing but drop. Government agencies and business have a lot more money to spend than the average Joe-six-pack. That's where they do the bulk of their business.

The only reason main stream manufacturers abandoned it is the changes to get part 95 approval. When a radio gets Part 90 approval for 403-512MHz, they used to be able to fill out one form, and use the existing test to get Part 95 approval. Now, they are requiring a entire second test and full set of submission to the FCC. For the percentage of the market that GMRS is, they all said no thanks and walked.

Heck, similar can be said for Part 80 (marine), but manufacturers will apply for that one because the market is much bigger than GMRS. There are many commercial radio needs for Marine service radios with IS ratings (XPR7550e comes to mind).

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, if it gets tested and approved in Part 90 for a block of frequencies that include the GMRS set, I see no reason it shouldn't be allow to get Part 95 on the same test. Granted, it may be stuck at narrowband, but that's still better than having to run another test.

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, tweiss3 said:

The only reason main stream manufacturers abandoned it is the changes to get part 95 approval. When a radio gets Part 90 approval for 403-512MHz, they used to be able to fill out one form, and use the existing test to get Part 95 approval. Now, they are requiring a entire second test and full set of submission to the FCC. For the percentage of the market that GMRS is, they all said no thanks and walked.

Heck, similar can be said for Part 80 (marine), but manufacturers will apply for that one because the market is much bigger than GMRS. There are many commercial radio needs for Marine service radios with IS ratings (XPR7550e comes to mind).

The above is true. However they need to get the certification just once for a design. So long as they don't make any significant changes the certification applies to other models. I've seen that with some of the commercial Kenwood radios. The FCC ID for their P25 and NXDN radios, TK-5220/5320 and the NX-200/300 for example, are the same.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/TK-5220_5320_Specsheet.pdf

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/02_NX-200G&300GBrochure.pdf

I am going to guess the cost of the certification amortized over a large fleet is rather small. The testing done for Part 90 the results likely could be just dropped into the submission for Part 95 except where there are specific differences between the services. The additional tests, if any, I can't see being that huge of a burden.

I suspect the real reason has to due with the rule changes in 2017/18 that disallowed businesses from applying for a GMRS license. With the rule changes the FCC effectively killed the business market for GMRS. In that case I can see why the main stream manufactures walked away. The paperwork and testing changes IMHO was a flimsy excuse.

[tweiss3]

30 minutes ago, Lscott said:

The above is true. However they need to get the certification just once for a design. So long as they don't make any significant changes the certification applies to other models. I've seen that with some of the commercial Kenwood radios. The FCC ID for their P25 and NXDN radios, TK-5220/5320 and the NX-200/300 for example, are the same.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/TK-5220_5320_Specsheet.pdf

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/02_NX-200G&300GBrochure.pdf

I am going to guess the cost of the certification amortized over a large fleet is rather small. The testing done for Part 90 the results likely could be just dropped into the submission for Part 95 except where there are specific differences between the services. The additional tests, if any, I can't see being that huge of a burden.

I suspect the real reason has to due with the rule changes in 2017/18 that disallowed businesses from applying for a GMRS license. With the rule changes the FCC effectively killed the business market for GMRS. In that case I can see why the main stream manufactures walked away. The paperwork and testing changes IMHO was a flimsy excuse.

My understanding is they want to see the testing to include more points directly in the GMRS range, which typically is not included in the wide range part 90 testing. 

The secondary part is they probably don't want to deal with the whining and support to the typical licensee with the programming software. The usual cast of characters that whine when they have to downlead the free software/driver from the web to use the cable provided in the box and program their radio couldn't fathom paying a few real bucks for the correct cable and software.

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

I suspect the real reason has to due with the rule changes in 2017/18 that disallowed businesses from applying for a GMRS license. With the rule changes the FCC effectively killed the business market for GMRS. In that case I can see why the main stream manufactures walked away. The paperwork and testing changes IMHO was a flimsy excuse.

There's the added wrinkle of that requirement of not being able to operate in unlicensed services that I believe was added when GMRS moved from 95a to 95e. For the 450-512 radios, no real issue, but, but the 403-470, and some of the newer crop that do 400-512 out of the box...no go. Starts limiting how far they can spread that certification cost

Quote

95.1761 - No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service.

 

[Lscott]

41 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

There's the added wrinkle of that requirement of not being able to operate in unlicensed services that I believe was added when GMRS moved from 95a to 95e. For the 450-512 radios, no real issue, but, but the 403-470, and some of the newer crop that do 400-512 out of the box...no go. Starts limiting how far they can spread that certification cost

 

That's an interesting point. I have noticed that for a particular radio model the 400 to 470 band split will have the Part 90 certification only and the 450 to 470/490 will have both Part 90 and 95 certifications. Otherwise there is no difference between them.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

My understanding is they want to see the testing to include more points directly in the GMRS range, which typically is not included in the wide range part 90 testing. 

The secondary part is they probably don't want to deal with the whining and support to the typical licensee with the programming software. The usual cast of characters that whine when they have to downlead the free software/driver from the web to use the cable provided in the box and program their radio couldn't fathom paying a few real bucks for the correct cable and software.

Yup, I get the second point there. They can push off the support cost on to their dealer networks for the commercial stuff whereas a direct customer sale they are on the hook for support.