Which Digital Voice Modes Do You Have Equipment To Operate?

[Sshannon]

And DMR Plus is promised to be the next big thing!

[Lscott]

5 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

And DMR Plus is promised to be the next big thing!

[Sshannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

But not to worry, DMR Plus is partnering with DMR-MARC.

And if you want to bridge between four different digital networks, there’s QuadNet:

https://www.openquad.net

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

But not to worry, DMR Plus is partnering with DMR-MARC.

And if you want to bridge between four different digital networks, there’s QuadNet:

https://www.openquad.net

[Sshannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

The QuadNet Array - D-STAR, DMR and C4FM Fusion II Done Your Way!

[Lscott]

I think I just go back to playing with my D-Star, NXDN and P25 radios.

[tweiss3]

The way I see it, DMR in amateur radio isn't going away, and it isn't going to be unified, so I do what I can to make the best of it.

 

When I travel south, I use the NCPRN system, which is not internet linked, has a fixed set of talkgroups, and works wonderfully (all the backbone is Motorola only). 

For repeaters around here, I did spend a day looking up each in the state and seeing which talkgroups are on it. I only put the Local, the few Ohio Statewide and Echo in my radios. I do keep North America and WorldWide for the few local repeaters. I typically don't like dealing with those insane groups, but I have used it at 2:30 am when I had to make an emergency run to the pharmacy, and it helped keep me awake and alert.

We do have one Megalink that is used locally that cross links YSF, DMR and D-Star. I talk on that some too, but usually only DMR into it, though I have used YSF and D-Star to connect.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

The way I see it, DMR in amateur radio isn't going away, and it isn't going to be unified, so I do what I can to make the best of it.

Have you tried doing any data exchange using DMR or one of the other modes? From what I've read using the "narrow", not the "very narrow" mode on NXDN you can get a faster data rate than with DMR, which is limited by the TDMA method used.

The Kenwood radios I have include a TTL level serial port that can be configured for data transmission. The radio is used as a modem with the native digital voice mode doing the communication protocol to facilitate the exchange. In the programming software it's configured as either "Transparent" or "Transparent 2" for the protocol.

Using the builtin serial port one no longer need a "packet" interface, which is basically a direct connection to the modulator input and discriminator output. Then you had to screw around to get the right signal levels for the frequency shift required. The serial port, and the radio's native digital mode, takes care of all that for you.

What I'm looking for is software to emulate a hardware TNC. Just about everything I've found either won't work on the newer version of Windows, or requires DOS and wants to interface to a sound card, which isn't needed using the digital radio. I've been told some had success using D-Rats, but thats aimed more towards D-Star specifically.

[tweiss3]

@LscottI have not played with data over digital. I have sent messages, but that's simple. I was toying with the idea getting a RSM cable and building a TNC interface. You may have just pushed me to move that way quicker.

My winlink node uses SoundModem by UZ7HO. I also have used Drats before, but I didn't get very far. I will have to look into that again. I need to go send an email now.

[Lscott]

I've attached a section out of the function reference guide for the NX-200/300 series radios for the transparent data mode. You have the NX-5000 series which I assume the functions will be similar. The HT's don't have any hardware flow control so the TNC emulator has to implement some form of software flow control. The mobile radios might have the hardware flow control on the interface port.

Transparent Data Mode.pdf

[WRKC935]

On 1/23/2023 at 1:30 PM, Lscott said:

This is the one thing that bugs me, mostly with DMR. That's the multiplicity of networks. 

I try to program up my radios and every repeater seems like they have to use a different network for linking. If you're lucky the talk group numbers are the same, but not always. Then you have to jump through hoops to link from one network to another if the one you want is on the "other" network.

DMR is enough of a pain as it is to program up a radio without the above BS on top of things.

Here in Michigan for example a number of local repeaters use the Mi5 network. Dah!

https://w8cmn.net/mi5-sites-talkgroups/

And a de-funked network.

https://dmrx.net/dmrx-core.html

And this is an example of a repeater that's a bit more changeling to program. It uses several different networks and talk groups.

http://n8noe.us/DMR/dmr.html

I 100% agree. Now, mind you I cheat.  I have repeaters that are on both DMR-MARC and BrandMeister in my area.  So I have multiple radios that are programmed for both systems.  I have control of those radios via either tone remote (14 channel and one zone) MotoBridge, which has full zone/ channel control and TRBO-Vui / Radio Pro that also has full access to channel / zone programming.  The TRBO-Vui is what I use with the Solo client on my phone to access those radios.  Only have two currently configured for that.  The VHF is all ham, the UHF is ham / commercial / GMRS.  So that covers all the bases.  The MotoBridge just switches zones, and has two radios for VHF and two for UHF, so I can get either system from either radio.  I haven't seen or done anything with DMR Plus yet, But I do have an MTR3000 that I am currently running on 442.775 analog only.  That repeater may get switched to DMR Plus if there is a reason to serve that system up locally.   Most of what I do with it is monitor 3139 (Ohio TG) and the weather TG in Ohio. 

I don't see the programming being as much difficult as just plain tedious.  But, I write code plugs for TRBO radios about twice a month at work for new installs, so I sort of have that down.  I am looking at setting up my own RM server for TRBO since I have so many TRBO radios that I am managing for my own use.  We have one at work, but I don't know how they would feel if I was sticking a bunch of my stuff on the company server. 

 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

I 100% agree. Now, mind you I cheat.  I have repeaters that are on both DMR-MARC and BrandMeister in my area.  So I have multiple radios that are programmed for both systems.  I have control of those radios via either tone remote (14 channel and one zone) MotoBridge, which has full zone/ channel control and TRBO-Vui / Radio Pro that also has full access to channel / zone programming.  The TRBO-Vui is what I use with the Solo client on my phone to access those radios.  Only have two currently configured for that.  The VHF is all ham, the UHF is ham / commercial / GMRS.  So that covers all the bases.  The MotoBridge just switches zones, and has two radios for VHF and two for UHF, so I can get either system from either radio.  I haven't seen or done anything with DMR Plus yet, But I do have an MTR3000 that I am currently running on 442.775 analog only.  That repeater may get switched to DMR Plus if there is a reason to serve that system up locally.   Most of what I do with it is monitor 3139 (Ohio TG) and the weather TG in Ohio. 

I don't see the programming being as much difficult as just plain tedious.  But, I write code plugs for TRBO radios about twice a month at work for new installs, so I sort of have that down.  I am looking at setting up my own RM server for TRBO since I have so many TRBO radios that I am managing for my own use.  We have one at work, but I don't know how they would feel if I was sticking a bunch of my stuff on the company server. 

 

I don’t program up any of my digital radio unless I need to make a change, or making a code plug from scratch, which lately in about never. That can be a PIA when the repeater owner(s) change talk groups and or networks. You discover that when previously working stuff quits working. Then trying to find the info on what is currently supported is a crap shoot. Sometimes Repeaterbook.com helps, if not then you’re off looking for the repeater’s website, if there is one. Sometimes I think the repeater owners change stuff around just to torment people.

The way I currently try to keep the mess organized is using one “zone” per repeater. In each zone I use one memory entry per talk group and slot number. The commercial radios I use don’t support front panel programming, like you get with Ham gear, so this all has to be done ahead of time. Some of the radios have the ability to select user ID’s and talk groups from the internal lists stored with the code plug through a menu function you assign to a PF key.

The fun starts when adding in more talk group numbers. Those go into a list. The list is numbered from 1 to whatever size the radio software/hardware limits are. When a memory is programmed you use the list entry number corresponding to the entry for the talk group you want. Having a lot of talk groups in the list means constantly scrolling through the list looking to see where it’s at to get the list entry number.

Sooner or later the list is a mess of out of order talk groups. Moving the talk group numbers now means your memory setting for the talk group list entry now refers to the wrong talk group. Now you have to manually go through every programed memory and update the talk group entry list number. I’ve done that more that once. There doesn’t seem to be a way to let the software sort the list and update the memory programming.

[Sshannon]

4 minutes ago, Lscott said:

There doesn’t seem to be a way to let the software sort the list and update the memory programming.

I have exported to a CSV format file and sorted in excel, then reimported. 

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

I have exported to a CSV format file and sorted in excel, then reimported. 

Not all of Kenwood’s software has an export function, which seems it just a CVS file. I can change the file extension to CVS and Excel reads it just fine.

Sorting in Excel won’t help. I’ve already tried this. The exported data had the list entry number on the same line as the user ID’s and talk group numbers. Yes there are two lists. The big one is the talk group one. If you do a sort it looks petty in Excel. When you reimport the data the talk groups get stuck back in the list corresponding to the list number you see in Excel. You end up with exactly what you started with, a mess.

[Lscott]

Your idea might have some merit. Doing the manual editing in Excel might be easier than flipping through various windows in the programming software. 
 

Reimporting the data also has a nasty habit of wiping out the zone names I’ve assigned and resetting some options back to their defaults. I have to renter all that again by hand. 

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

Your idea might have some merit. Doing the manual editing in Excel might be easier than flipping through various windows in the programming software. 
 

Reimporting the data also has a nasty habit of wiping out the zone names I’ve assigned and resetting some options back to their defaults. I have to renter all that again by hand. 

I exported my zones to see what they look like.  It should be possible to manipulate them in Excel also, but you have to be very careful.  At least for the Anytone/Alinco codeplugs, there's a very complex array of channels for each zone in one of the columns that would be very easy to zorch.

[tweiss3]

Kenwood's D1N allows you to copy from the zone and paste into excel, and back into the software. 

Also, apparently Mototrbo CPS 2.0 just added export/import features. 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

Kenwood's D1N allows you to copy from the zone and paste into excel, and back into the software. 

Also, apparently Mototrbo CPS 2.0 just added export/import features. 

This is an export for an experimental code plug from KPG-166D for my TK-D300 radio.

KPG166D_TK-D300 Export.itm.csv

You'll notice none of the zone names are in the file, only identified by the zone number, so importing this data will wipe out my zone names at a minimum. Also other crap gets changed, I think the memories all get set as added to the scan list for example, then I have to go through each one to uncheck the scan add box. PIA.

The only thing I found useful about the import function is it saves me the trouble of reentering a bunch of frequencies when building a new code plug from scratch for a new radio model I got. 

The radio used is in the link here.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/255-tk-d300e-fmdmr/

 

[Sshannon]

The Anytone/Alinco zone file is a a table of zones.  Each zone has a list of joined channels, with apparently up to 255 entries.  It appears to use the name of the channel, rather than a number. 

[gortex2]

Try doing an APX with 197 zones, 37 trunking systems and tons of conventional.....Oh and a boat load of secure keys...gets crazy. Thank god for RM. 

[Lscott]

18 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Try doing an APX with 197 zones, 37 trunking systems and tons of conventional.....Oh and a boat load of secure keys...gets crazy. Thank god for RM. 

At least you get paid for the trouble I assume. Me, it's all on my time.

[gortex2]

No all my personal and SAR radios are all on my own time. Thats why I finally installed a RM server. Lots of radios take time to deploy. NO I work in RM little at a time when Im free and can push updates when ready.

 

[Lscott]

34 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

No all my personal and SAR radios are all on my own time. Thats why I finally installed a RM server. Lots of radios take time to deploy. NO I work in RM little at a time when Im free and can push updates when ready.

 

I've played a tiny bit with Motorola's RM just to see what it does. It was automatically installed along with CPS 16. I only have a few radios so the extra work isn't worth it for me. I just have to save the code plugs by radio serial number.

I've though about using the Depot software to change the SN on the radios to be the same. Then I don't need to track the code plugs by SN. I'm not using anything that's specific to a radio that's enabled using an entitlement key, I believe, so that might work for me saving the tracking by SN hassle.

I did bugger up one of the XPR6580's I have. Somebody had used V2 on it. I saved the tune data for the radio to a file. Then used the Depot tool to force a downgrade in firmware which also eliminated the trunking crap. At this point I had nothing to lose. Apparently you have to get rid of the trunking stuff to use the in-memory edit software hack with CPS 16 to get the radio on the 33cm band. I tried to reload the tune data and found out there is a difference in the number of parameters so it refused to load. WTF!! Boo-hiss.

Now Motorola in their infinite wisdom uses the auto tune feature, in their test gear, to setup some of the parameters in the radios. The tune utility won't let you manually adjust those specific ones. Anyway I used the Depot tool to change the serial number to match the good XPR6580 I have. I saved the tune data from the good radio and wrote it to the buggered up one. Yeah some stuff very likely is not optimally set but at lest I have a radio that sort of works I can beat around and try stuff out on.

This is why I sort of stick with the older Kenwood stuff.

[tweiss3]

17 hours ago, Lscott said:

I've played a tiny bit with Motorola's RM just to see what it does. It was automatically installed along with CPS 16. I only have a few radios so the extra work isn't worth it for me. I just have to save the code plugs by radio serial number.

I've though about using the Depot software to change the SN on the radios to be the same. Then I don't need to track the code plugs by SN. I'm not using anything that's specific to a radio that's enabled using an entitlement key, I believe, so that might work for me saving the tracking by SN hassle.

I did bugger up one of the XPR6580's I have. Somebody had used V2 on it. I saved the tune data for the radio to a file. Then used the Depot tool to force a downgrade in firmware which also eliminated the trunking crap. At this point I had nothing to lose. Apparently you have to get rid of the trunking stuff to use the in-memory edit software hack with CPS 16 to get the radio on the 33cm band. I tried to reload the tune data and found out there is a difference in the number of parameters so it refused to load. WTF!! Boo-hiss.

Now Motorola in their infinite wisdom uses the auto tune feature, in their test gear, to setup some of the parameters in the radios. The tune utility won't let you manually adjust those specific ones. Anyway I used the Depot tool to change the serial number to match the good XPR6580 I have. I saved the tune data from the good radio and wrote it to the buggered up one. Yeah some stuff very likely is not optimally set but at lest I have a radio that sort of works I can beat around and try stuff out on.

This is why I sort of stick with the older Kenwood stuff.

You can use the clone button, instead of write to send the codeplug to the other radios.

 

On an interesting note, my Alberta Radio Supply linking cable came in. Now I can do crossband repeat from any channel to any channel in the radio with the push of a button on the front panel. It even works UHF P25 to VHF NXDN, and sounds identical to analog to analog. Nice and simple setup, just connect it to the DB25 on the back of each radio, and set the pin programming. 

[Lscott]

28 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

You can use the clone button, instead of write to send the codeplug to the other radios.

 

On an interesting note, my Alberta Radio Supply linking cable came in. Now I can do crossband repeat from any channel to any channel in the radio with the push of a button on the front panel. It even works UHF P25 to VHF NXDN, and sounds identical to analog to analog. Nice and simple setup, just connect it to the DB25 on the back of each radio, and set the pin programming. 

I don't think I've notice that. Next time I get around to playing with the XPR's I'll look for it.

Anyway that's cool you can do cross band and cross mode repeat. Do you know if the audio is sent in digital format between the two radio decks or is it analog? I'm assuming it is.

Another question can those radios be setup for an auto ID using CW? Just about every radio with builtin cross band repeat I know about has the same problem. No way to do an auto ID. The NX HT's I have include a CW ID function, but it's not automatic. You have to assign it to a function key then press it to send. The screen shot is from a NX-200/300 HT setup.

I looked at the P25 radios I have, TK-5220/5320, and they don't have this feature. Sort of odd since at one time you could get Kenwood convert your radio, NX-200/300 <-> TK-5220/5320, from one to the other. I'm told that's no longer offered.

I though about how cross band would work using a couple of hand held radios. The coupling would have to be done using analog audio. A lot of processing is done on the analog signal in the course of conversion to digital, then couple that with another from digital to analog, then the reverse on the second radio would result, I would assume, in some serious degradation in audio signal quality.

On a different topic how much has this setup cost you so far?