SignallyCurious2
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Posts posted by SignallyCurious2
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5 minutes ago, Lscott said:
I've been monitoring 462.5325MHz here at the office. I'm only a few miles directly due east of that water tower. I am getting something on the CCR triband radio I use as a scanner. It's not real strong and just short transmissions, about a second or two at a time.
That would be the offending signal - I’m listening to them crystal clear right now. Truck 850 just got back in the yard
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The NEXEDGE48 system is construction workers working somewhere in downtown Detroit. Lots of broken English / heavy Spanish accents, talking about Congress street and Jefferson, heading back up Woodward. I’ll upload calls a little later when I have a bigger batch
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13 minutes ago, markskjerve said:
That doesn't surprise me at all. The RRDB listings for talkgroups are user gathered and updated are are known to be incorrect or way outdated. There are a couple of guys in my area that run banks of SDS200 scanners logging gigabytes of data a week and keep RRDB somewhat up to date for my area.
The radio alias is populating via the decoder, dsd+ doesn’t hook into RRDB like sdrtrunk does.
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5 minutes ago, markskjerve said:
That doesn't surprise me at all. The RRDB listings for talkgroups are user gathered and updated are are known to be incorrect or way outdated. There are a couple of guys in my area that run banks of SDS200 scanners logging gigabytes of data a week and keep RRDB somewhat up to date for my area.
I had to make some adjustments, it’s picking up 2 systems. A NEXEDGE 48 system on 462.5325 which is the offending signal and a IDAS system which is delta com single site on 462.5375, which they confirmed as theirs.
The nexedge 48 site just keyed up and the guy is at Jefferson and Congress, downtown Detroit currently.
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I’ll update this once I have enough humint to determine what the business is
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1 minute ago, Lscott said:
I looked up the address. Surprise, It's not where I thought it was. The address listed in the FCC's database shows its across the street from the golf course on Evergreen. It's looks like it's almost across the street from the Southfield City offices, library, court house and jail on the east side. They just recently built a couple of round-abouts there I believe.
Yes, that is too far away. You lose signal completely by 13 and greenfield
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1 minute ago, markskjerve said:
Detacom sites, frequencies, control channel and known talkgroups...
https://www.radioreference.com/db/sid/8091
Yes, I have a subscription.
It is populating customer radio ID data, which I’m confirming with delta com. So far nothing correlates to the RRDB listings, nothing even close.
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9 minutes ago, Lscott said:
Well then it wasn't DMR after all.
The FCC database shows Delta Com is licensed for 462.53125, which is a standard frequency. The location shown is in Southfield, another is in Novi. NX48 is the very narrow mode of NXDN. This was the result of doing a search on digitalfrequencysearch.com under NXDN. Then looked up the license on the FCC's ULS license database.
https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licenseLocDetail.jsp?licKey=1925372&keyLoc=15068559
The building in Southfield I think is the huge gold coated glass building near Evergreen and 10 Mile in Southfield. Right across the expressway from Lawrence Technological University, LTU, and down the street from Channel 7 TV.
The signal might be a strong reflection off the water tower by the AAM plant in Royal Oak.
I can't monitor an NXDN trunked system using my Kenwood NXDN radios. The firmware will refuse to open the audio on the radio. It detects the packets are coming from a trunked system and as a security measure won't produce audio unless the radio is registered on the system. Entering the frequencies as simplex won't work either. I've been told that Icom NXDN radios would likely work, they don't have that quirk builtin to their firmware, however I can't confirm that.
at this point my focus is gathering calls and extrapolating who it is, which will lead us to the result. I understand what you’re saying in theory, but it doesn’t add up to the real world results.
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It says it’s an IDAS system as well
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14 minutes ago, markskjerve said:
Since it appears they are using Nexedge 48, take a look at Bare Snow and Landscaping around 1000ft from the water tower. Just keep in mind that they are a Deltacom customer (DEC code 680) and Deltacom is about the only major player for NXDN in the area.
I’m waiting to hear back from delta com now
its 100% a landscaping company - couple dozen calls so far. Unable to determine who it is yet - still doesn’t add up to being a deltacom customer because there is no repeater in this area. We’re gonna see though!
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14 hours ago, Lscott said:
This looks like it’s going off the rails.
I would quit looking at what’s coming out of the packet decoders until with 100 percent certainly the mode is positively identified. For the various modes the RF has some very characteristic features. For example DMR, P25 Phase-2 and Tetra are all TDMA based with particular bandwidths of the signal and slot timing. P25 Phase-1 is like NXDN, both are ONLY FDMA based. But, NXDN has two bandwidths, narrow and very narrow that are used.
Once there is zero doubt about the mode then worry what’s coming out of the decoders. For now it looks like garbage mostly. Even if the voice payload is encrypted the headers are not. It’s has to be this way for the state machine in the radio’s firmware to figure out what type of packet it is and what to do with it. If you’re getting good decodes then at least the packet type should be identifiable even if the payload is encrypted.
Assuming it’s a Motorola system then the encryption is likely one of several types, basic - enhanced - AES/DES.
The basic mode used on Motorola radios is a low bit count scrambler type proprietary to Motorola. It’s available on many of their digital radios.
The enhanced encryption is usually RC4, a 40 bit stream encryption, available on many radios besides Motorola. I have it on several of my Kenwood NX-1300DUK5’s.
https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/290-nx-1300duk5/?context=new
The AES/DES encryption is available on the higher end Motorola radios only, I believe, and on other manufacturers as well. It’s also on my Anytone D878 and D578 too at no extra cost.
Currently you’re not likely to find much in the way of decryption software since the FCC rules now make it clear it’s against the law to decode encrypted transmissions you’re not authorized to receive. The guys doing the SDR software have said they won’t touch it for that reason.
DSD Fastlane decoders are working - I got 3 voice calls clear as day. Now we listen in for the details.
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2 minutes ago, WRXB215 said:
It's not RF. It's demonic.
This is the calls using a nxdn decoder. I have samples of encrypted P25 traffic from MPSCS system that sound just like that, I’m hoping the dsd+ fast lane decoders will work better.
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3 minutes ago, SignallyCurious2 said:
I know it isn’t delta com because he keyed up those two frequencies, separately, from three different repeaters so we could get a read on them and rule them out.
And it’s possible I don’t understand what you’re asking too, this has been a whirlwind of information.
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5 minutes ago, markskjerve said:
I still don't see how you are not receiving Deltacom's repeater of 462.531.25 on 462.531.880 (the center of your interference). I've got a DMR HT that allows me to to program 462.531.880 so I did. Tested as DMR simplex on 462.531.880 on low power with no antenna on the radio using SDR# with my RSP1B on a discone on both frequencies. It's so close a radio on ether frequency would work together. I'm not saying it's Deltacom but more likely something on 462.53125 since it's a standard offset. My Icom won't even let me program 462.531.880, it auto jumps to 462.531.25 but my MD-380 HT allows it for some reason.
I know it isn’t delta com because he keyed up those two frequencies, separately, from three different repeaters so we could get a read on them and rule them out.
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Here are 10 calls decoded from sdrtrunk - with message blocks saying it’s encrypted
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21 minutes ago, Lscott said:
If it’s really a transmitter you can only program in fixed step sizes unless it has a “true” VFO. The common usual step sizes I’m aware of by are 2.5, 3.125, 6.25, 12.5, 20 and 25 KHz. The frequency you’re measuring is likely a combination of the frequency error of both the SDR dongle and the transmitter’s reference oscillator.
The frequency I’m measuring is the transmitter as I have confirmed multiple times through this process by adjusting the PPM of the oscillator via software used against stable, confirmed signals in the same band. The SDR is not part of the equation as I’ve done multiple controlled tests to rule it out.
Not to mention it’s a RSP1A, not some cheapo China boy.
What we are left with is a transmitter that is inbetween those channels. That’s what I’m here to figure out.
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I created a catch-all talkgroup recording setting in SDRTrunk, got this back so far. Which is the same result as I’ve been getting,
im hopeful I can catch some sort of bit or piece from it.
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This is the amount of message blocks, not necessarily calls from the above data
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This is what I’ve captured so far
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2 minutes ago, markskjerve said:
If you have it narrowed down that close, you should be able to hear it with no antenna attached to the SDR if you are within 100-200ft of the transmitter. I run a program called Spektrum (cheesy spectrum analyzer for SDR's) to test my HT's or base for 2nd and 3rd harmonics at 5 watts with no antenna connected to the RSP1B at all to keep from overloading it. With no antenna connected about the only signal the SDR can receive is pretty much what is within 100ft it.
If you have a radio (even analog) to bring along that can tune the the frequency at the same time just to monitor when it is transmitting or use it with no antenna and the SDR with one. A handheld frequency counter helps as well. We used to do fox hunts every weekend back in the mid 80's in the CB radio days, used to be quite good at winning it.
That’s the thing, There’s SO MUCH in the area and the signal is so random it’s just not possible. I have a HT but again, the freq they’re on isn’t centered so using anything it will sort of pick it up but it’s just interference between multiple channels unless you can tune inbetween channels.
Anyone who wants to go check it out in person will see what I mean, there is so much vehicle traffic and so very little place to just stop and wait for the next one. It might be 2 hours in between bursts.
im organizing the data logs and will post them shortly.
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The other thing that just crossed my mind - what if this is a residential based signal and it’s just someone who bought a cheapo repeater from alibaba.
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The gold star is the water tower, and the signal is strongest within 1/4 mile radius of the star.
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The modulation is different, the signal is weak, and they’re centered on the freqs they use. When I say this thing is strong, it would take ALOT for my man to blast the front end out of my SDR on low gain, inside my 1st floor townhouse, with a rubber duck antenna not near a window, from Southfield.
Im a disabled combat vet, this is not my first foray into hunting down signals, what is so difficult is how many antennas and how much industrial businesses are in the area of interest
The next step is DSD+ Fastlane, it has better NXDN decoders than SDRTrunk, if I’m unable to extrapolate who it is / what they’re talking about, delta com and myself are going halfsies on a KrakenSDR and finding the signal for good. By the time you purchase the SDR, their 5 antennas, a raspberry Pi 4 and an android tablet is about $1k, but having the setup and being able to track any signal moving forward is worth the investment.
Interference on 462.5325 MHZ Oakland Co Michigan
in Guest Forum
Posted
Not enough traffic to confirm this morning - dump trucks seem to be a common phrase leading me towards this.