WREJ796

One of my friends gave me a UV5R to replace my trusty BellSouth 1010 FRS radio so we can stay in touch over longer distances during trail rides (mountain biking). I've been using FRS radios since the mid 90s whenever they first appeared and it seemed odd that this radio could get significantly better range within the constraints of FRS (500mW). Of course the first thing I did was research the radio itself which led me down various paths which I'm sure you're all familiar with (surprise it's not FRS! ham licensing? no, but not FCC certified, legality?), but to sum up I discovered that GMRS is a thing, which I was previously unaware of.
 
So initially during this crazy ride the info I found suggested the UV5R was legal to use as long as you had a GMRS license, so I ended up getting one (no exam, nice). I've read the FCC regulations myself and unless I'm reading them wrong (certainly possible) the UV5R is unquestionably illegal to use for FRS/GMRS. From what I've read here and elsewhere online it seems like there aren't many Part 95e certified radios for sale, everything is combo FRS/GMRS and most of them are not really GMRS, just FRS under the new FCC regs (8 more channels and up to 2W on some?). So that brings me to the advice part.
 
I primarily use FRS radios to communicate with friends/family while biking, hiking, boating, etc. Kids/wife all have cheap 500mW FRS radios and we get about 1/4 mile in our neighborhood, maybe 1/2 mile when hiking/biking in state parks, probably 1 mile when boating. If I could double each of those ranges I would be happy. With the new FRS it looks like they share 100% of the channels with GMRS, and now they can transmit up to 2W, so what's the advantage of GMRS? Most handheld "GMRS" radios from Midland are only 2W, so I'd be gaining nothing and have to use a callsign?
 
Should I just get some newer 2W FRS radios?

So curiosity got the better of me while I was doing some shopping online for Black Friday and I found a Kenwood TK-360G for $40 on eBay with a new battery and extra antenna. I know the TK-360G is older, but I hoped it would give me that third data point to see which radio has issues. I also wanted to try setting up a crosslink to Zello to include some non-radio friends/family so I needed another radio 
 
As an aside the Zello crosslink is amazing and super helpful for testing. Since I can leave one radio linked to Zello at home and take the other radios with me, I can do all of this testing solo using Zello as an echo device back to my phone (bonus, it records everything for later review).
 
 
Testing was at low power/narrow since I was only in my neighborhood.
 
With the GMRS-V1 at home connected to Zello, I started walking with the UV-5R and TK-360G. Initially both sounded just fine, but as I reached my normal neighborhood limit where the UV-5R starts to hiss a bit, the TK-360G still sounded fine. Farther out the UV-5R dropped out completely, but the TK-360G went another 1/4 mile before it became unintelligible.
 
Returned home, connected the UV-5R to Zello and did the same test. This time both the GMRS-V1 and TK-360G went about to the point where the UV-5R dropped out before. Seems like the UV-5R was the limiting factor on this test.
 
Third time I connected the TK-360G to Zello, UV-5R went as far as last time before dropping out, GMRS-V1 went 1/4 mile farther. Again, UV-5R seems to have reduced range.
 
 
I wasn't sure if that was enough data to draw any conclusions, so I set up the GMRS-V1 at Point A (from the original test) on high power/wide with Zello crosslink, then drove over to Point B with the other two radios. With the UV-5R I couldn't hit Point A, but the TK-360G was clear (though a bit choppy at times). Talking through Zello (so GMRS-V1 at Point A was transmitting) I could hear pretty well on the TK-360G with a little static, couldn't hear anything at all on the UV-5R.
 
I drove back to Point A and put the UV-5R on Zello, drove back to Point B and tried again. I couldn't hear either the GMRS-V1 or the TK-360G, nor could either of them hear the UV-5R when I transmitted through Zello.
 
Based on that I think its fair to say the UV-5R is the "issue" here, why specifically I don't know.
 
 
Some other odd issues I noticed with the TK-360G was that it emits a high-pitched whine (almost like feedback, but it's a constant tone and volume) whenever the UV-5R is transmitting, but not when the GMRS-V1 transmits. Likewise the reception on the UV-5R sounds noisy, almost choppy when the TK-360G is transmitting while the GMRS-V1 receives just fine. Reception on the GMRS-V1 sounds fine when either the UV-5R or the TK-360G are transmitting. I'm not sure what's causing that, but as of right now the UV-5R and TK-360G don't like each other. I'll have to test with my friend's UV-5R to see if it's just my UV-5R.
 
Anyway, sorry about the massive wall of text. It's about as long as my Baofeng wild goose chase 

So curiosity got the better of me while I was doing some shopping online for Black Friday and I found a Kenwood TK-360G for $40 on eBay with a new battery and extra antenna. I know the TK-360G is older, but I hoped it would give me that third data point to see which radio has issues. I also wanted to try setting up a crosslink to Zello to include some non-radio friends/family so I needed another radio 
 
As an aside the Zello crosslink is amazing and super helpful for testing. Since I can leave one radio linked to Zello at home and take the other radios with me, I can do all of this testing solo using Zello as an echo device back to my phone (bonus, it records everything for later review).
 
 
Testing was at low power/narrow since I was only in my neighborhood.
 
With the GMRS-V1 at home connected to Zello, I started walking with the UV-5R and TK-360G. Initially both sounded just fine, but as I reached my normal neighborhood limit where the UV-5R starts to hiss a bit, the TK-360G still sounded fine. Farther out the UV-5R dropped out completely, but the TK-360G went another 1/4 mile before it became unintelligible.
 
Returned home, connected the UV-5R to Zello and did the same test. This time both the GMRS-V1 and TK-360G went about to the point where the UV-5R dropped out before. Seems like the UV-5R was the limiting factor on this test.
 
Third time I connected the TK-360G to Zello, UV-5R went as far as last time before dropping out, GMRS-V1 went 1/4 mile farther. Again, UV-5R seems to have reduced range.
 
 
I wasn't sure if that was enough data to draw any conclusions, so I set up the GMRS-V1 at Point A (from the original test) on high power/wide with Zello crosslink, then drove over to Point B with the other two radios. With the UV-5R I couldn't hit Point A, but the TK-360G was clear (though a bit choppy at times). Talking through Zello (so GMRS-V1 at Point A was transmitting) I could hear pretty well on the TK-360G with a little static, couldn't hear anything at all on the UV-5R.
 
I drove back to Point A and put the UV-5R on Zello, drove back to Point B and tried again. I couldn't hear either the GMRS-V1 or the TK-360G, nor could either of them hear the UV-5R when I transmitted through Zello.
 
Based on that I think its fair to say the UV-5R is the "issue" here, why specifically I don't know.
 
 
Some other odd issues I noticed with the TK-360G was that it emits a high-pitched whine (almost like feedback, but it's a constant tone and volume) whenever the UV-5R is transmitting, but not when the GMRS-V1 transmits. Likewise the reception on the UV-5R sounds noisy, almost choppy when the TK-360G is transmitting while the GMRS-V1 receives just fine. Reception on the GMRS-V1 sounds fine when either the UV-5R or the TK-360G are transmitting. I'm not sure what's causing that, but as of right now the UV-5R and TK-360G don't like each other. I'll have to test with my friend's UV-5R to see if it's just my UV-5R.
 
Anyway, sorry about the massive wall of text. It's about as long as my Baofeng wild goose chase 

So this test wasn't very conclusive, partly because we had limited time and restricted terrain. UV-5R and GMRS-V1 were at Point A and my old FRS started at Point C about 1/4 mile away through a flat neighborhood walking away from Point A. The issue we had was the flat neighborhood drops off on both ends after about 1/2 mile so it's hard to test beyond that range.
 
Anyway, reception was clear on the FRS from both GMRS radios up to 1/2 mile, then as we lost line of sight there was quite a bit of noise and choppy audio. Subjectively it seemed like the audio from the GMRS-V1 was less understandable than the UV-5R, but it was close. From FRS to both GMRS radios reception was fine, but dropped off completely once we lost line of sight.
 
So *maybe* the GMRS-V1 has a transmit issue? To @gman1971's point about desensing, I did notice that sometimes when I was holding both GMRS-V1 and UV-5R only one of them would light up and receive from the FRS. Not every time, but probably 1/3 of the time. Holding them farther apart helped.
 
I don't know when I'll have a chance to do another proper test with multiple radios so for now I guess I'll just accept that my practical line of sight range is about 2-3 miles with the radios I have now.

Took a couple weeks for our schedules to align, but we were able to test swapping radios today. Tested a bunch of different configurations to see what worked the best and here are the (hopefully readable) results. TLDR: Confirmed stock antennas are terrible, NA-771R is a huge improvement. UV-5R doesn't work well on Narrowband. High/Low power doesn't make much of a difference.  All tests were performed with the below radios at these locations:Point A - GMRS-V1 - High power (5W) / Low power (2W)Point B - UV-5R - High power (4W) / Low power (1W)  To keep things simple we started with "symmetric" tests, same equipment and settings on both radios: NA-771R Antenna Tests Test 1 - We could both hear each other normally GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R High power WidebandTest 2 - We could both hear each other, but there was more static GMRS-V1 NA-771R Low power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R Low power WidebandTest 3 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a little static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R Low power Narrowband UV-5R NA-771R Low power NarrowbandTest 4 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 normally, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Narrowband UV-5R NA-771R High power Narrowband  Stock Antenna TestsTest 5 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 caught a few bursts of static but nothing recognizable GMRS-V1 Stock High power Wideband UV-5R Stock High power WidebandTest 6 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 Stock Low power Wideband UV-5R Stock Low power WidebandTest 7 - Neither of us could hear each other at all GMRS-V1 Stock Low power Narrowband UV-5R Stock Low power NarrowbandTest 8 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 Stock High power Narrowband UV-5R Stock High power Narrowband   Based on those tests it seemed like High power Wideband was giving us the best results on both antennas, so we only tested swapping antennas with those settings: Mixed Antenna Tests Test 9 - We could both hear each other, but there was a lot of static GMRS-V1 Stock High power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R High power WidebandTest 10 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Wideband UV-5R Stock High power Wideband 
 
 
If you made it this far, what are your thoughts? Clearly the NA-771R at any power is the winner here, but why were the results so poor on Narrowband?

Took a couple weeks for our schedules to align, but we were able to test swapping radios today. Tested a bunch of different configurations to see what worked the best and here are the (hopefully readable) results. TLDR: Confirmed stock antennas are terrible, NA-771R is a huge improvement. UV-5R doesn't work well on Narrowband. High/Low power doesn't make much of a difference.  All tests were performed with the below radios at these locations:Point A - GMRS-V1 - High power (5W) / Low power (2W)Point B - UV-5R - High power (4W) / Low power (1W)  To keep things simple we started with "symmetric" tests, same equipment and settings on both radios: NA-771R Antenna Tests Test 1 - We could both hear each other normally GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R High power WidebandTest 2 - We could both hear each other, but there was more static GMRS-V1 NA-771R Low power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R Low power WidebandTest 3 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a little static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R Low power Narrowband UV-5R NA-771R Low power NarrowbandTest 4 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 normally, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Narrowband UV-5R NA-771R High power Narrowband  Stock Antenna TestsTest 5 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 caught a few bursts of static but nothing recognizable GMRS-V1 Stock High power Wideband UV-5R Stock High power WidebandTest 6 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 Stock Low power Wideband UV-5R Stock Low power WidebandTest 7 - Neither of us could hear each other at all GMRS-V1 Stock Low power Narrowband UV-5R Stock Low power NarrowbandTest 8 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 Stock High power Narrowband UV-5R Stock High power Narrowband   Based on those tests it seemed like High power Wideband was giving us the best results on both antennas, so we only tested swapping antennas with those settings: Mixed Antenna Tests Test 9 - We could both hear each other, but there was a lot of static GMRS-V1 Stock High power Wideband UV-5R NA-771R High power WidebandTest 10 - UV-5R could hear GMRS-V1 with a lot of static, GMRS-V1 could not hear UV-5R at all GMRS-V1 NA-771R High power Wideband UV-5R Stock High power Wideband 
 
 
If you made it this far, what are your thoughts? Clearly the NA-771R at any power is the winner here, but why were the results so poor on Narrowband?

Yes. I have seen some on Amazon that claim up to two watts on 22 channels. 
However, I was wondering what regulation you were citing in your comment that it would be illegal to speak Spanish on FRS? There is a requirement that GMRS station IDs be made in English or Morse code. But, the only other reference I can find to language in Part95 is in subpart-A - General Rules for the Personal Radio Services
 

Plain language voice communications. Voice communications without codes or coded messages intended to provide a hidden meaning. Foreign languages and commonly known radio operating words and phrases, such as “ten four” and “roger,” not intended to provide a hidden meaning, are not considered codes or coded messages.

I guess if the problem follows the radio we can both bring our stock antennas and try it with all 4 configurations (stock<->stock, stock<->NA, NA<->NA, NA<->stock). If that indicates the antenna is the issue we can swap Nagoya antennas and see if the issue follows the antenna.

I guess if the problem follows the radio we can both bring our stock antennas and try it with all 4 configurations (stock<->stock, stock<->NA, NA<->NA, NA<->stock). If that indicates the antenna is the issue we can swap Nagoya antennas and see if the issue follows the antenna.