WRAM370

This is true…in many cases. However, as stated earlier, the band plans do vary locally. As an example of this, many years ago, I had a group of ham radio friends that operated simplex FM on 146.400. That frequency was designated as a simplex frequency in our coordinated band plan. It also appears on modern amateur transceivers with no pre-configured offset, nor does any other frequency offset to 146.400. At some point, we received emails from Riley Hollingsworth, who was the legal counsel for the FCC at the time. Hollingsworth stated in the email that he had received complaints regarding interference to a repeater over 160 miles south of us, in another state, and asked that we contact him, in order to get more information in the matter. Each of us talked to Hollingsworth, and explained how we used the frequency (simplex FM operation, either mobile or base, how much power, antennas used, etc.) The issue at hand was this…the repeater to our south had numerous input sites, and one of those inputs was about 90 miles away, on a tall tower, and the repeater had no PL tone on it. Further, the output of the repeater was on 147.000, and the input was on 146.400, the simplex frequency in our region. When Hollingsworth told us of the issue, he asked we do some testing, and we did tests and found that a 5 watt HT signal from a third floor apartment in an urban area, 90+ miles away, could hit this input with mild band enhancement. Now if you take your modern amateur 2m transceiver and look at the “automatic repeater shift” setting for 147.000, you will find it will indicate a “+” (positive) offset. However, the repeater in question used a negative offset, putting the input on a designated simplex frequency in our coordinating region. I recall mentioning this to Hollingsworth during our phone call, stating that my FCC approved equipment puts me on simplex on 146.400, and that the input to 147.000 would be 147.600 on my Yaesu radio. Upon completion of his investigation, Hollingsworth told us that we were operating correctly and to continue doing what we were doing. We were operating correctly and in compliance. The repeater owner had been told many times to tone the input to the repeater, as he had filed other complaints with the FCC regarding the same matter. The FCC determined it was unreasonable for a high profile repeater to operate in this manner, when in fact, all FCC approved gear will indicate a positive offset for 147.000, and tone access has been an established convention for nearly two decades at this point in time. The repeater owner had been advised to tone his repeater several times by the FCC, but refused to do so. So here is a case where the band plan in one location was different from that in a neighboring state, as conceived by “coordination councils”, and the typical ham transceiver would have a different repeater shift from what was in use. And to put the cherry on top, we contacted the coordinating councils in the two regions about this matter while the FCC was doing it’s investigation, and both council bodies responded with “you are wrong. You can’t interfere with a repeater, so you must change frequency”. These “councils” were, in fact, wrong, and went away with their tails between their legs when presented with the findings from the FCC. it is always best to understand the rules of amateur radio, and the conventions of operation within your region, so that you have the FCC on your side, and you can educate arrogant hams who “think” they know what they are talking about.

Since this discussion is continuing, I will repeat myself from the previous discussion on hams using GMRS. I think it demonstrates that the amateur radio service is not providing the “service” it should be, to the community at large, in 2023. Many ham radio test questions are out of date or antiquated. They have no real purpose to the users who are entering ham radio, and these questions and tests only serve as a barrier. Some will say they want that barrier to exist, to keep out the unwanted, just as they did with the morse code requirement. To those hams, I say ‘get over it’. The days of most hams being aerospace engineers and having pocket protectors are long gone. Like it or not, we live in the here and now, and it is a “new normal”. It may not be better, but it is new. I thought there was a proposal in recent years to offer an entry level test of 5 questions, to give privileges on 70cm. That would be a step in the right direction for ham radio. What happened to that??? That is exactly what needs to be offered for entry level hams who only want to use an HT or mobile FM radio, with privileges only on 70cm FM frequencies. Give them privileges on 2m FM as well ! And in all reality, why do we even need test questions for those privileges, when it is basically the same as GMRS ? What do you need to know? You have a requirement to ID every so often, and you have to stay on these particular frequencies, and you would be limited to 50 watts TPO. No need to see if the applicant can recognize a resistor or a diode on a schematic. Who can do that today, with SMD components in everything? -/\/\/\/- is futile

Sorry to stray from the OP’s post, but this is of interest to me, and may or may not speak to the OP’s question. I changed the status of my repeater after receiving requests from people who were nowhere near it’s very limited coverage area. It just became pointless for me to offer access when the majority of requests were obviously not going to hit it, and many of these people were looking for repeaters with activity for the purposes of “conversation”. There are several open repeaters in my region that cover 50+ miles, and since the lowering of the licensing fee, these repeaters are occupied by hams and CB’ers, who have moved their lengthy and pointless conversations onto the extremely limited GMRS channels. Some of these conversations run for hours throughout the day, as these people are often retired or unemployed, and due to the large footprint of the repeater, make that particular frequency pair unavailable for others to use. I think this is inconsiderate, when the amateur radio service exists for this very intended purpose. You mentioned hams have other places to go, as do CB operators, but in my region, they have flocked to GMRS. Of these high profile repeaters that exist in my region, I have heard practically NO family communications on these wide footprint repeaters, because they are occupied by older men who sit around and BS for hours, as if they are sitting at the corner bar. I can tell you that any reasonable parent would probably not want to use these repeaters with their children, for many reasons. Your desire to have GMRS activity take priority over ham-type activity is understandable. I don’t know if that can be accomplished anymore, since the FCC lowered the fee, and the Chinese are cranking out inexpensive radios.

There is a lot to working with commercial radios, if you want to program them yourself. It is not like the amateur/GMRS radios with simple programming software, that is nearly plug-n-play. Some models of commercial radios were set up for analog trunking systems, and as such require some odd ways to program them for traditional ham/GMRS use. These radios, such as the Kenwood TK-840, have System and Group functions, so they require a slightly different approach to programming, if you want to put a bunch of GMRS channels in and scan them. Keep in mind that a lot of older radios were from the days of computers running DOS, and the programming software for those older radios need to be run in DOS, and the communications speeds of the serial ports needs to be slow. There are YT videos of people successfully running the older programming software in DOSBox, but I have never had luck with that ( and I didn’t need to spend a lot of time on it, because I have other options). Some software may work in Windows OS, but they may only like up to Windows 98. Newer radio programming software is generally compatible with Win 10. Also note that Motorola is very particular about protecting their programming software, and the official channel to obtain that software can cost you an additional $200-300 (I don’t recall the exact price, but it is up there). I believe Kenwood has recently adopted a licensing scheme as well, for their commercial programming software. As mentioned, you want to take note of the band split of a particular radio. Most commercial radios are tuned to a specific portion of the band, and could not work for your needs unless you are skilled and equipped to do alignments on radios. And even then, some components may require replacement. And many newer (post 2013) radios commercial radios will only do narrow band, unless you purchase an unlock key to allow wide band programming. That generally means spending additional money, or going through the process of Motorola indoctrination. If you want to run commercial radios on GMRS, and don’t have a bench full of electronics test gear and a stack of old computers, you are probably better off with a company such as Used-Radios.com. If you are a general appliance operator on GMRS or amateur radio, you probably want to buy something off the shelf from Midland or Wouxan. If you are a glutton for punishment, by all means buy used radio gear, learn to program and align it yourself, and then realize there is no market for this stuff anymore, thanks to the good folks in China that have flooded the market with inexpensive radios.

FYI, the Kenwood TK-805D can be programmed without a computer, which is convenient. Generally an online search will find how that is accomplished.

It can be a “plug and play” if your repeater has an interface to plug an external controller into it. Check out Hamgadgets ID-O-Matic controllers, as an example. Most repeaters have a “controller”, which does a number of things. Primarily, it will respond to a signal coming into the receive section of the repeater, and then turn on the transmit side of the repeater to send out the received signal. The controller can also be programmed to determine the maximum length of time the transmitter section will be allowed to transmit (via a time out timer) to prevent the transmitter from running constantly, in the event something happens to the transmitter. The controller may also have an ID morse code (or voice recorded) generator, which is programmed for the callsign and the interval time it will identify. In GMRS, the ID interval is 15 minutes. As mentioned above, some controllers (or just a stand alone ID’er) can be programmed to ID once the repeater in engaged, and then every 15 minutes (or whatever the requirement may be for that application), until people stop using it. After the last transmission, the repeater will then ID one last time at the determined interval, and then sit quietly until keyed up again later. Some controllers are not this smart, and can only ID every XX minutes, all day and night, regardless of whether the repeater is used or not. This would be annoying in my opinion. GMRS is a shared service, so we may want to only have our radios/repeaters transmitting when actually being used, and quiet the rest of the time. The Hamgadgets ID-O-Matic is an inexpensive controller, that offers a few options. You can program it yourself if you can follow instructions, or pay the man to program it for you. He offers cables that will allow a “plug and play” option for users, if they have the repeaters/radios that are listed on his site. Otherwise you would have to make the necessary connections to the internal components of the repeater yourself. I know Hamgadgets offers prewired controller cables for some Motorola radios/repeaters, and there are some Chinese models as well IIRC. I am not endorsing the ID-O-Matic, I am only pointing out that they may be something for you to look at and get more info.

No one has one? https://youtu.be/HJN62_km4dY

 So perhaps we can all agree that hams and CB’ers are looking at GMRS so they have someone to talk to, and in particular, because they can utilize repeaters to accomplish that goal. The repeater is the primary attraction in this movement towards GMRS. So, with trying to stay on topic to the OP’s original question, I suggest that amateur radio is missing the mark, by not providing the experience for many people who are, or would be, active on radio, where GMRS is providing a resource for these people, but it is my belief that GMRS is not the appropriate venue for this particular activity, due to it’s very limited bandwidth and shared FRS activity. GMRS should be short distance, brief messages that convey information that is of interest to a family or immediate group of licensed people. Amateur radio is for longer distance conversations that include people not related to one another, who enjoy participating in long-winded ragchews. I know the dozens of amateur repeaters in my region sit idle for days/weeks. Unused bandwidth on 2m and 70cm, and from your comments, it is true in your region as well. While the 8 repeater channels available are being used by CBer’s and ex-patriot hams. It is just ridiculous for amateur radio to continue to hold onto old conventions that are literally causing it to lose participants, when we can clearly see the activity interest in GMRS increase, as ham radio interest decreases. And again, it is primarily related to repeater access on GMRS, so here is the simple solution… 1) Eliminate the testing requirement for an entry level amateur radio license. 2) Establish a license class that authorizes use of 2m and 70cm FM simplex and repeater access available for the price of admission ($35). 3) Allow up to 50 watts of transmitter output power (HT and mobile radio operation). This is basically the same as GMRS (with the exception of the VHF access), and if GMRS does not require a license holder to demonstrate any knowledge of operation, than neither should amateur radio, for the same basic operating privileges. Beyond the requirement to identify your station every 10 minutes on the amateur bands, I don’t think there is anything else that a user of 2m or 70cm would need to know, relating to Part 97. Should one want to further their involvement in amateur radio, then the usual process of testing can be followed, to permit the use of higher transmitter power, additional bands and modes of operation. But for amateur radio to try to have a gatekeeper in place for access to some VHF and UHF spectrum, in the form of a 35 question test, is archaic and useless at this point. And it is only destroying the General Mobile Radio Service in the process. And for the hams that would scream that this idea would destroy amateur radio…as a GMRS user, I am trying to save GMRS from the very situation you have created, so if you think my suggestion is wrong…then GFY. This is exactly what needs to happen, in order to save both amateur radio and GMRS.

“Why are there so many hams getting into GMRS ?” When I read through the reasons given, I see a distinct pattern. I have copied the pertinent responses below to illustrate my point. I also include some personal accounts that are occurring within my “local” area, regarding amateur radio operators and their use of GMRS. There are those on this forum that believe the purpose of GMRS is clearly and concisely stated by the FCC…” The GMRS is available to an individual (one man or one woman) for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members”. There are others who interpret the intent and purpose of GMRS as something beyond the scope of the above description. Based on the responses to the OP’s query, it seems that the two primary reasons offered here for a licensed amateur radio operator to use GMRS, are: 1. There is more opportunity to talk to people. (beyond the scope of facilitating activities of their families) 2. A desire to have a means of communication with an unlicensed family member. (completely within the scope of facilitating activities of their families) Here are the responses that specifically address the OP’s question… “There's actually people to talk to on GMRS”. “Ham is in an activity null” “Availability, coverage and the people using it” “Around the Detroit area 2M and 70cm are dead most of the time. On GMRS you only have a handful of frequencies to use so it doesn’t take much to find activity” “I can give one of my GMRS radios to my wife” “In my case a GMRS license allows me to give a cheap and useful radio to all family members” “I use GMRS out with the family unit all the time” “I use GMRS because my wife and I can communicate with it. I'm a ham, she's not” “I am a ham… Talked to Corey and Buddy with that group and got interested in linking. I never looked back. Got a group that's local that gets on a chats on the 675 locally and many of them get on the linked system as well” As we can see, based on the responses, those licensed amateur radio operators utilizing GMRS in order to talk to their family members, have no other reason as to why they prefer GMRS over amateur radio, other than the desire and need to communicate with their family members who do not have an amateur license. Their possession of an amateur license does not really factor into their utilization of GMRS. Those hams who specifically cited a reason they prefer GMRS over ham radio is because of the likelihood that they will find someone to talk to. They can increase that likelihood by linking GMRS repeaters. There is little-to-no ham radio activity local to them. So this is an indication that they are looking at GMRS as an activity within itself…the hobby of talking. They want to use GMRS to talk to people beyond their families, and even to talk to people in locations beyond the RF footprint of their radios or repeaters. In fact, they are saying that they are using GMRS as a substitute for amateur radio, since amateur is not meeting their expectations. They don’t particularly care if GMRS is not really intended as a suitable radio service for this activity. Local to me, members of an amateur radio club is encouraging other members to get a GMRS license, and is scheduling a GMRS simplex net. Those members who are encouraging this action, are doing so because it is clear they are not happy with the people they are finding on the amateur radio bands, and openly state they prefer the people they find on GMRS. There were a few responses from members on this forum that also included a dissatisfaction with those they encountered on the amateur bands. This further indicates to me, that many of these hams are looking to strike up friendships and connections via the airwaves, and are looking for camaraderie and fellowship. To engage in conversation and chat. None of these things are why I use GMRS. Also, these hams may want to possibly exercise control of a channel or group, via controlling a wide coverage repeater that makes it difficult for others to utilize, or an organization of people, to control who is allowed in the club, and who is allowed to use their repeater. Oddly, this all sounds just like ham radio to me. As the old saying goes…”be careful what you wish for”. It indicates that the amateur radio service has not fulfilled their desires, and they are using GMRS to fulfill that desire. Also, unrelated to the OP’s question, many that are obtaining GMRS licenses are coming from CB radio, and are moving their local “round table” CB radio sessions to GMRS repeaters. So now we have dissatisfied amateur radio operators and CB radio operators, leaving the RF spectrum that is available to them, to move to 8 available repeater channels. It’s gonna get crowded fast. While not within the scope of the OP’s original question, perhaps amateur radio better reassess it’s current requirements and mission, and see if it can provide an environment that entices people, particularly hobbyists, back to that service.

Just for the purpose of accuracy, there are a number of Kenwood commercial radios that can be programmed with Chirp. I have personally used Chirp to program a TK-862, and Chirp lists a few Vertex radios as well. Chirp does not appear to support the model the OP mentioned, but there are some commercial radios that can be programmed with Chirp. Looking at Chirp’s supported radio list prior to posting this, I see an asterisk on some models, noting a possible change in support status using something called “Chirp-Next”. I don’t use Chirp often, and don’t keep up on the changes to it, so if one is interested in using Chirp for a Kenwood TK model, do your own research.

While I don’t believe Express Traffic exists in the Philly area anymore, it may well be that this GMRS system was part of that back in the day. That would explain why it has such a large coverage area. If there is an input at Roxborough, Pa., that would likely only come about from a company or corporation, since that is where many of the TV and radio station antennas are located, and a lowly GMRS user would not be likely to gain access to that site.

It sounds like WOML364 but I find no listing for that callsign in the FCC database. I tried a few other iterations (like 365) but no listing on the ULS. Since you said you slowed it down, I am guessing are hearing the repeater system that I believe is linked, and IDs at around 40 WPM, which I am sure is intentional, so as no one can copy it., and I think one of the inputs is in Roxborough, as I recently heard a discussion about that on that system. I think there are other inputs in S. Jersey, but I have no direct knowledge of what is going on there. This system was briefly discussed in another thread, because it was noted that no one ever IDs…they simply use unit numbers. I recognize a few of the users from Philly area amateur radio repeaters, as they are also licensed for ham radio operation. I guess they suspend their adherence to required FCC protocol on this guy’s system. They go “10-8” and “10-7”, because I guess they like to pretend they are in public safety. I was in public safety, and have no time for “wannabes”. Having a repeater with a big repeater footprint does not make up for this guy’s other shortcomings in life. I believe the owner of the system is some guy named Ed, and goes by 820 or 821 or 822, depending on what PL tone he is using, as the system used many different tones, via a community tone panel. I also believe, but may be wrong, that you obtain the “privilege” to use his system by paying him, but I do not know that for a fact. Just key up when you hear “820…10-8” and ask him what you have to do to be part of that group. Money always talks.

I own both a UV9D Mate and UV9D. They are my favorite HTs, and have sold off my name brand amateur HTs in favor of these radios. My only complaint with the UV9D radios is that AM receive audio (aircraft) can be louder than the FM reception, particularly with close aircraft. I live near a general aviation airport, so the traffic is only a couple of miles away and some transmissions can be quite a bit louder than the other signals received. They need some form a AGC to solve that I guess. I have not experienced any issues with intermod or other types of interference, as I have with other brands of Chinese radios, These radios seem to have good selectivity, keeping unwanted signals out, and the receive sensitivity of the UV9D models seems quite good. I also live near a high powered paging transmitter, and do not experience any bleed over from that on the UV9D. But I will mention I only use these radios as handhelds, and only with a rubber duck antenna. I have not connected them to an external or mobile antenna, and that could impact someone’s reception, regarding overloading of strong signals. The display can be difficult to read in direct sunlight, but that does not bother me much. I find these radios to be as good as one of the more expensive Yaesu HTs, and I can tell you personally I will never spend more money on something like a Yaesu, as their quality has deteriorated over the years, while Wouxun’s quality has improved greatly.

The Midland MXT-275 is my submission for the “wasted money” category. First off, I will admit that it is entirely my fault. I had no idea anyone made a GMRS narrowband-only radio, so for failing to look at the FCC data prior to buying was my bad. I pre-ordered the MXT-275 in July of 2018, when Midland was taking pre-orders, thinking this was going to be the perfect radio for my wife’s car, making it as easy as possible for her to use a radio to access our repeater. When I finally got the radio, the audio was practically non-existent. Not only due to the narrowband audio, but also because the initial run of mics were F’ed. There were people reporting this at the time, but there was no public acknowledgement from Midland about the issue. Midland did send me a new mic (they knew it was F’ed), which did provide “better” audio, but the narrowband audio of the radio made it basically unusable on our repeater. I even programmed a second channel on the repeater in narrowband, to see if we could run this way, but it was too much of a PITA, as the other users were wideband. I replaced the 275 with a used Motorola CM200 in her car. The /\/\ radio cost less than the Midland, and life without Midland radios has been just peachy. I just sold the MXT-275 for $20 at a hamfest, just to get rid of it. If you feel sorry for me for taking such a loss, I will set up a GoFundMe account that you could contribute to, to help make me whole again. ? Midland. I personally despise the company, the MXT275, and what they have done to GMRS. But that’s just me.

From my experience as a not-very-interested amateur radio license holder, I observed an interesting phenomenon occur on the local ham radio scene, as digital modes such as C4FM (Yaesu System Fusion) and DMR began to appear. It absolutely killed the local ham radio scene. People either embraced the technology, or hated it, and in that process, people got angry with those who disagreed with them (think modern day politics in America). As such, there is little-to-no amateur radio activity on repeaters anymore, and amateur radio as we knew it, has got both feet firmly in the grave…in this neck of the woods. Dozens of repeaters go unused. Those who embraced the digital voice modes (or “the dark side” as many called it), started out on talkgroups with fairly large gatherings of hams. Over time, they would get the azz of one another, and break off into other talkgroups of smaller, more intimate groups (another way of saying, only those who can tolerate each other), because they realized they could just keep creating new talkgroups. Now there are hundreds, if not thousands, of talkgroups, where two or three hams talk, where they used to talk to large groups on their local analog repeater. Excellent use of bandwidth. It is interesting to see the discussion of DMR, or perhaps some other form of modulation, on GMRS, with it’s limited bandwidth, and no requirement to understand anything at all about radios. When asked to share spectrum space with analog and digital users, I can only imagine what will happen. My worthless and unsolicited opinion is…if you want to play with a DMR radio, get yourself over to amateur radio. All sorts of people struggling there with code plugs, color codes, time slots, etc. And these are people who have “passed” a test to demonstrate proficiency in radio operation. I think there is too much effort being placed in trying to turn GMRS into amateur radio. People want internet linking, wide coverage repeaters, nets, vanity call signs, ARES/RACES affiliations, digital voice modes. It all exists over on ham radio.