"Illegal" radios

[NWHov]

Sorry if this topic has been hashed out before on this forum...I didn't see it after looking through old posts. 

Is it or isn't it FCC non compliant to utilize a GMRS radio (for GMRS) that is "unlocked" to manipulate the pre programmed GMRS frequencies or other pre programmed settings?  I have read through Part 95 and only find part 2, subpart J that seem to discuss the matter (all above my head) but seems to be aimed at the programming and software installed by the manufacturer.

Quote

§ 95.335 Operation of non-certified transmitters prohibited.

Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service, pursuant to part 2, subpart J of this chapter. Use of a transmitter that is not FCC-certified voids the user's authority to operate that station. See sections 302(a), (b), and (e) of the Communications Act (47 U.S.C. 302(a), (b), and (e)).

Here is the real question...is my Baofeng UV-5RM, which came loaded (but not locked) with the 14 GMRS interstitial channels and the 8 GMRS main channels (but no main repeater channels), apparently sold to be a GMRS radio, FCC compliant to be used for GMRS?  Reading through Part 95 makes it sound as if you need to be only compliant to how your frequencies, offsets, tones, power, etc... are programmed.  Seems to me as long as it's programmed/used to be FCC compliant, you should be good.  

Am I wrong or does the FCC really say I can't use a GMRS radio unless the manufacturer programmed and locked it to FCC standards?

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, NWHov said:

Sorry if this topic has been hashed out before on this forum...I didn't see it after looking through old posts. 

Is it or isn't it FCC non compliant to utilize a GMRS radio (for GMRS) that is "unlocked" to manipulate the pre programmed GMRS frequencies or other pre programmed settings?  I have read through Part 95 and only find part 2, subpart J that seem to discuss the matter (all above my head) but seems to be aimed at the programming and software installed by the manufacturer.

Here is the real question...is my Baofeng UV-5RM, which came loaded (but not locked) with the 14 GMRS interstitial channels and the 8 GMRS main channels (but no main repeater channels), apparently sold to be a GMRS radio, FCC compliant to be used for GMRS?  Reading through Part 95 makes it sound as if you need to be only compliant to how your frequencies, offsets, tones, power, etc... are programmed.  Seems to me as long as it's programmed/used to be FCC compliant, you should be good.  

Am I wrong or does the FCC really say I can't use a GMRS radio unless the manufacturer programmed and locked it to FCC standards?

Radio specs are submitted by the manufacturer to the FCC and the FCC issues a certification. Look and see if the radio has been certified.  A certification identifier should appear on a label attached to the radio.

However, you’ll soon learn that as long as you make any attempt whatsoever at following the rules the FCC will never know or care.

[UncleYoda]

You'll get a lot of different opinions here.  My interpretation of the regs is that if a user changes the way the radio is configured/programmed in order to allow transmit on non-GMRS frequencies then the radio's certification is void,

 

There's an epidemic of rule breaking in GMRS including some of the most prolific posters here.  I tell people what the rules are but I don't report anyone, at least so far.

[UncleYoda]

Why did you quote only 95.335?  One of your questions is addressed in 95.337

Quote

§ 95.337 Operation of impermissibly modified equipment prohibited.
No person shall modify any Personal Radio Service transmitter in a way that changes or affects the technical
functioning of that transmitter such that operation of the modified transmitter results in a violation of the rules in
this part. This includes any modification to provide for additional transmit frequencies, increased modulation
level, a different form of modulation, or increased transmitter output power (either mean power or peak
envelope power or both). Any such modification voids the certified status of the modified transmitter and
renders it unauthorized for use in the Personal Radio Services. Also, no person shall operate any Personal
Radio Service transmitter that has been so modified.

 

[SteveShannon]

More specific to GMRS is this paragraph:

95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification.

(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the GMRS will not be issued for any GMRS transmitter type that fails to comply with the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.

(d) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization for hand-held portable unit transmitter types under both this subpart (GMRS) and subpart B of this part (FRS).

(e) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization under this subpart (GMRS) for hand-held portable units if such units meet the requirements to be certified under subpart B of this part (FRS).

[NWHov]

25 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Why did you quote only 95.335?  One of your questions is addressed in 95.337

§ 95.337 Operation of impermissibly modified equipment prohibited.

No person shall modify any Personal Radio Service transmitter in a way that changes or affects the technical functioning of that transmitter such that operation of the modified transmitter results in a violation of the rules in this part. This includes any modification to provide for additional transmit frequencies, increased modulation level, a different form of modulation, or increased transmitter output power (either mean power or peak envelope power or both). Any such modification voids the certified status of the modified transmitter and renders it unauthorized for use in the Personal Radio Services. Also, no person shall operate any Personal Radio Service transmitter that has been so modified.

I am no tech type person so I apologize in advance, just trying to understand or conclude that my UV-5RM is nothing more, per the FCC, than a scanner to receive 22 GMRS/FRS frequencies?  If I want to use the radio only to transmit and receive on GMRS, per the FCC, I need to get a new radio that has is FCC certified (as GMRS) with frequencies added/locked by the manufacture.  Is this correct?

[UncleYoda]

Yes, if you want to follow the rules, you need a GMRS certified radio. (If you suspect a vendor is lying/cheating on their certification claim, you can look up the ID on the FCC site.)  The part about "locked" though is not as simple.  Some certified radios do allow adding extra transmit channels on the same frequencies.  It's the frequencies that need to be locked for transmit, not specific channels.  But the CCR manufacturers or vendors take the quick and dirty way to lock by channels.

[SteveShannon]

10 minutes ago, NWHov said:

I am no tech type person so I apologize in advance, just trying to understand or conclude that my UV-5RM is nothing more, per the FCC, than a scanner to receive 22 GMRS/FRS frequencies?  If I want to use the radio only to transmit and receive on GMRS, per the FCC, I need to get a new radio that has is FCC certified (as GMRS) with frequencies added/locked by the manufacture.  Is this correct?

The only reason for certification is to allow you to transmit. There are many certified GMRS radios that are capable of receiving hundreds of non-GMRS frequencies.

If you wish to be compliant with the rules when transmitting, yes, you must use a GMRS certified radio. 
I have never looked into the FCC ID of the UV5RM, so I don’t know if it has GMRS certification or not. Baofeng does manufacture 95E certified radios. 
 

[WRYS709]

Ask 1,000 members of this Forum; get a 1,000 opinions.

You don’t mention your reason to transmit on GMRS. 

Your motivation would affect my answer. 

[NWHov]

15 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Yes, if you want to follow the rules, you need a GMRS certified radio. (If you suspect a vendor is lying/cheating on their certification claim, you can look up the ID on the FCC site.)  The part about "locked" though is not as simple.  Some certified radios do allow adding extra transmit channels on the same frequencies.  It's the frequencies that need to be locked for transmit, not specific channels.  But the CCR manufacturers or vendors take the quick and dirty way to lock by channels.

So, lets say my UV-5RM is FCC certified for GMRS,  I would still be breaking the rules if I added a tone (on my unlocked, factory set frequency via CHIRP) for a repeater to GMRS-18 (462.625) since it's modifying?  The radio did not come programmed with any of the GMRS repeater frequencies (channels 22-30)

[WRYS709]

1 minute ago, NWHov said:

So, lets say my UV-5RM is FCC certified for GMRS,  I would still be breaking the rules if I added a tone (on my unlocked, factory set frequency via CHIRP) for a repeater to GMRS-18 (462.625) since it's modifying?  The radio did not come programmed with any of the GMRS repeater frequencies (channels 22-30)

99% of FCC Certified GMRS radios already implement Repeater channels. 

Typically FRS radios do not include the Repeater channels for obvious reasons. 

[UncleYoda]

Adding tones doesn't break certification.  If your 5RM did not come pre-programmed with GMRS frequencies, I'd say it's not a certified GMRS radio.  Or maybe someone modified it.  My 5RM variant, and most of the ones I'm familiar with, are HAM radios.

[UncleYoda]

4 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

Typically FRS radios do not include the Repeater channels for obvious reasons. 

Yes, but I doubt that there is a 5RM model for FRS.  Most 5RMs are 10W, with SMA antenna connection.

[NWHov]

8 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

Ask 1,000 members of this Forum; get a 1,000 opinions.

You don’t mention your reason to transmit on GMRS. 

Your motivation would affect my answer. 

Unfortunately I'm a rule follower so opinions don't do me good.  Wife originally bought radios for an apocalypse but I figure I need to learn how to use them before then.  I also have very poor cell service in my rural area so not uncommon for locals to use GMRS for emergencies, off road, family communications on large properties etc...

[LeoG]

2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Radio specs are submitted by the manufacturer to the FCC and the FCC issues a certification. Look and see if the radio has been certified.  A certification identifier should appear on a label attached to the radio.

However, you’ll soon learn that as long as you make any attempt whatsoever at following the rules the FCC will never know or care.

OK Randy. 

[WRYS709]

3 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Yes, but I doubt that there is a 5RM model for FRS.  Most 5RMs are 10W, with SMA antenna connection.

My comment was about GMRS certified radios in general and in that context, I mentioned that FRS radios do not contain Repeater channels. 

The fact of the matter is that the Baofeng UV-5RM is a ham radio and hence can never be certified for use on GMRS. 

[WRYS709]

7 minutes ago, NWHov said:

Unfortunately I'm a rule follower so opinions don't do me good.  Wife originally bought radios for an apocalypse but I figure I need to learn how to use them before then.  I also have very poor cell service in my rural area so not uncommon for locals to use GMRS for emergencies, off road, family communications on large properties etc...

Then I do not understand what you are asking in your OP. Please clarify 

Your UV-5RN is NEVER an FCC Certified radio for GMRS. 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

More specific to GMRS is this paragraph:

 

95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification.

(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the GMRS will not be issued for any GMRS transmitter type that fails to comply with the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.

(d) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization for hand-held portable unit transmitter types under both this subpart (GMRS) and subpart B of this part (FRS).

(e) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization under this subpart (GMRS) for hand-held portable units if such units meet the requirements to be certified under subpart B of this part (FRS).

Part 95.1761 seems to say if you had a radio certified for Part 90, for example, it would also be OK so long as it's programmed to comply with the rules for power, frequency, and bandwidth on GMRS. This is one where you can go down the rabbit hole over if that's the case.

Several years ago I had asked about old Part 90 VHF radios on MURS. Since some of those were certified before MURS was created so they could be grandfathered in, again so long as they were programmed to meet the frequency, power and bandwidth specifications.

For Ham gear there is no transmitter part certification so on the face of it such gear couldn't be used even in the gray zone of the rules.

 

[NWHov]

6 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Yes, but I doubt that there is a 5RM model for FRS.  Most 5RMs are 10W, with SMA antenna connection.

That also adds to my confusion about  "FCC" compliancy.  My UV-5RM came unlocked with the (7) 467 MHz (FRS) frequencies.  Why bother since it would be non compliant to use them on a radio with a removable antenna?  I can even change the power settings to comply to the .5 watts but that would still be a modification.

[WRYS709]

995 opinions to go…

[Lscott]

10 minutes ago, NWHov said:

Wife originally bought radios for an apocalypse

In that event you won't be worried about the FCC rules, you'll be too busy running from the zombies to care.

[NWHov]

8 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

My comment was about GMRS certified radios in general and in that context, I mentioned that FRS radios do not contain Repeater channels. 

The fact of the matter is that the Baofeng UV-5RM is a ham radio and hence can never be certified for use on GMRS. 

"The fact of the matter is that the Baofeng UV-5RM is a ham radio and hence can never be certified for use on GMRS." 

I think you just summed it all up for me even though I still can't understand the FCC rules

[WRYS709]

2 minutes ago, NWHov said:

"The fact of the matter is that the Baofeng UV-5RM is a ham radio and hence can never be certified for use on GMRS." 

I think you just summed it all up for me even though I still can't understand the FCC rules

Like Mr Natural says: “Get the right tool for the job!”

Radioddity and Baofeng offer many budget priced certified radios for GMRS, FRS and MURS, as needed. 

[SteveShannon]

25 minutes ago, NWHov said:

So, lets say my UV-5RM is FCC certified for GMRS,  I would still be breaking the rules if I added a tone (on my unlocked, factory set frequency via CHIRP) for a repeater to GMRS-18 (462.625) since it's modifying?  The radio did not come programmed with any of the GMRS repeater frequencies (channels 22-30)

No, programming tones is not a modification. In fact for a certified GMRS radio, none of the ordinary changes made from the panel constitutes a modification. If you “unlock” the radio to allow it to transmit on a frequency outside of the 30 GMRS frequencies designated by regulations that would be considered a modification.

[UncleYoda]

10 minutes ago, NWHov said:

My UV-5RM came unlocked with the (7) 467 MHz (FRS) frequencies.  ... I can even change the power settings to comply to the .5 watts but that would still be a modification.

Do you have an Amazon page link for the model and vendor you have?  (I don't use eBay anymore.)

On the power issue, that's questionable; low power is likely more than 0.5W, but it also varies by frequency.  I think 220 was the lowest. (There's a post on here somewhere that gives their test results.)