Why no FRS/MURS combo radios?

[WRTC928]

FCC rules for FRS and MURS specify that a radio on either service can't be capable of transmitting on any other service. What's the reason for that? Does the logic make sense? I can get why they wouldn't (officially) allow FRS/MURS radios to transmit on amateur or business frequencies, but from a technical standpoint, obviously many radios can transmit on both services. It seems to me that by simply changing the wording of the regulation to say a radio certified for FRS or MURS can't transmit on any licensed frequency, they would open the door to a dual-band radio for the unlicensed services. Making the radio would be simple because both services are limited to 2 watts (0.5 on some FRS channels) and a little tweaking would put the frequencies into the current bubble-pack Walmart radios. 

Before you tell me that radio is called a UV-5r, I already know it will do it, but FRS radios are typically marketed to people who don't know squat about programming a radio. They want to just press the PTT and talk to their friends. It seems to me such a radio would sell well. I'm just curious about why the FCC won't allow it.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRTC928 said:

FCC rules for FRS and MURS specify that a radio on either service can't be capable of transmitting on any other service. What's the reason for that? Does the logic make sense? I can get why they wouldn't (officially) allow FRS/MURS radios to transmit on amateur or business frequencies, but from a technical standpoint, obviously many radios can transmit on both services. It seems to me that by simply changing the wording of the regulation to say a radio certified for FRS or MURS can't transmit on any licensed frequency, they would open the door to a dual-band radio for the unlicensed services. Making the radio would be simple because both services are limited to 2 watts (0.5 on some FRS channels) and a little tweaking would put the frequencies into the current bubble-pack Walmart radios. 

Before you tell me that radio is called a UV-5r, I already know it will do it, but FRS radios are typically marketed to people who don't know squat about programming a radio. They want to just press the PTT and talk to their friends. It seems to me such a radio would sell well. I'm just curious about why the FCC won't allow it.

I don’t know why the FCC chose to disallow radios that transmit on multiple services. I agree that it doesn’t seem to make sense. Since they’re asking how to simplify the regulations this is one way. 

[GreggInFL]

You can throw Marine VHF in there as well.

Others here know much more about this, but my guess is that it's a holdover from an apparent philosophy that the only way to ensure proper usage is by controlling the hardware, and they are not fine tuning that for unlicensed services which, as you point out, makes little sense.

The other approach (my personal favorite) is to trust the operator to ensure that what come out the antenna conforms to the subject service's specs. If you can get your nuclear-powered toaster to transmit narrow band at 0.5W on FRS, go for it. But I see the appeal of a hardware-based approach from a regulatory perspective. Too bad that all the unlicensed services can't be found on a single radio.

[MarkInTampa]

There kinda is, just GMRS instead of FRS... The TERA TR-505 GMRS/FRS radio claims to do optional MURS as well. You have to purchase a programming cable and get the free "MURS programming file". It's on their website so it has to be legit, right?

https://powerwerx.com/tera-tr505-gmrs-recreational-handheld-radio

[WRTC928]

32 minutes ago, MarkInTampa said:

There kinda is, just GMRS instead of FRS... The TERA TR-505 GMRS/FRS radio claims to do optional MURS as well. You have to purchase a programming cable and get the free "MURS programming file". It's on their website so it has to be legit, right?

https://powerwerx.com/tera-tr505-gmrs-recreational-handheld-radio

But now we're back to operating in violation of FCC regulations. You may as well buy a $15 UV-5r.

[WRTC928]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't discern the logic.  

[WRTC928]

51 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

You can throw Marine VHF in there as well.

True, but marine VHF is a bit of a niche application, and I doubt including it would make the radio sell better.

51 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

Others here know much more about this, but my guess is that it's a holdover from an apparent philosophy that the only way to ensure proper usage is by controlling the hardware, and they are not fine tuning that for unlicensed services which, as you point out, makes little sense.

Yep. I get that there has been some effort to make sure the various radios are only used by "authorized" people, but in this case, authorized users are literally everybody.

52 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

The other approach (my personal favorite) is to trust the operator to ensure that what come out the antenna conforms to the subject service's specs. If you can get your nuclear-powered toaster to transmit narrow band at 0.5W on FRS, go for it. But I see the appeal of a hardware-based approach from a regulatory perspective. Too bad that all the unlicensed services can't be found on a single radio.

That's certainly the libertarian approach, but I can't see it gaining any traction with any agency of any government anywhere.

[WRUU653]

2 hours ago, GreggInFL said:

You can throw Marine VHF in there as well

The problem I see with this is suddenly you will have people not in knowledge of the rules for marine use then using it on land and inappropriately. Not a good use as it could cause issues for safety on the water. Marine VHF is a non licensed service to make it easy for everyone on the water to have it and thus make it safer out there. 

[WRYS709]

1 hour ago, WRTC928 said:

But now we're back to operating in violation of FCC regulations. You may as well buy a $15 UV-5r.

Every time I am tempted to buy the $34 Radioddity MURS HT; I ask myself: why?!?

[WQAI363]

First of all, the Family Radio Service and the Multiple Use Radio Service may share one thing, they're both licensed by rule and not individually licensed. It would be nice to have two Licensed by Rule Radio Services in one, but I seriously doubt the FCC would ever allow FRS and MURS to co-exist in the same radio. 

Then again, I assumed that the FCC was referring to FRS and GMRS combo radios, not FRS and MURS. Of course, I've never seen a commercially available FRS and MURS combo, unless individuals were using uncertified radios. 

[dosw]

21 minutes ago, WQAI363 said:

First of all, the Family Radio Service and the Multiple Use Radio Service may share one thing, they're both licensed by rule and not individually licensed. It would be nice to have two Licensed by Rule Radio Services in one, but I seriously doubt the FCC would ever allow FRS and MURS to co-exist in the same radio. 

Then again, I assumed that the FCC was referring to FRS and GMRS combo radios, not FRS and MURS. Of course, I've never seen a commercially available FRS and MURS combo, unless individuals were using uncertified radios. 

One thing people often overlook is *why* you see 2m/70cm combination radios a lot more often than other combinations. It turns out that 70cm is the 3rd harmonic of 2m. But the same cannot be said for 65cm (FRS/GMRS), which is too far from the MURS frequencies to be a useful harmonic spacing.

The ramification is that it's not terribly difficult to have an antenna that is resonant and generally useful supporting a 2m/70cm radio, but it's rather hard to have an antenna that is good on both FRS and MURS. Sure, there are antennas like the Comet CA2X4SR. It has to make some design compromises, and turns out to work rather well, but for the most part 2m/70cm antennas are easier to produce and have fewer design compromises. The Comet needs a very good ground plane. And it's a big antenna. It's a lot harder in a handheld to do both frequencies well, in the same radio, with the same antenna.

 

Of course there's the other aspect, too; the FCC has no motivation, no reason to offer FRS/MURS as an option. There's nothing intrinsically broken about the fact that currently they're separate services, and prohibited from being on the same type-approved radio. So the FCC isn't about to change it.

[WRYS709]

I'm holding out for THIS "combo"...

[WQAI363]

On 10/28/2025 at 4:01 PM, dosw said:

One thing people often overlook is *why* you see 2m/70cm combination radios a lot more often than other combinations. It turns out that 70cm is the 3rd harmonic of 2m. But the same cannot be said for 65cm (FRS/GMRS), which is too far from the MURS frequencies to be a useful harmonic spacing.

The ramification is that it's not terribly difficult to have an antenna that is resonant and generally useful supporting a 2m/70cm radio, but it's rather hard to have an antenna that is good on both FRS and MURS. Sure, there are antennas like the Comet CA2X4SR. It has to make some design compromises, and turns out to work rather well, but for the most part 2m/70cm antennas are easier to produce and have fewer design compromises. The Comet needs a very good ground plane. And it's a big antenna. It's a lot harder in a handheld to do both frequencies well, in the same radio, with the same antenna.

 

Of course there's the other aspect, too; the FCC has no motivation, no reason to offer FRS/MURS as an option. There's nothing intrinsically broken about the fact that currently they're separate services, and prohibited from being on the same type-approved radio. So, the FCC isn't about to change it.

Everything you just said, I agree with. Not just because I hold two licenses, but it simply makes sense. 

[Lscott]

On 10/28/2025 at 4:01 PM, dosw said:

One thing people often overlook is *why* you see 2m/70cm combination radios a lot more often than other combinations. It turns out that 70cm is the 3rd harmonic of 2m. But the same cannot be said for 65cm (FRS/GMRS), which is too far from the MURS frequencies to be a useful harmonic spacing.

If you look at the two MURS wide band frequencies, 154.570 MHz and 154.600 MHz the third harmonics are 463.710 MHz and 463.800 MHz. Both of those lie between the simplex channels 1-7 and the repeater channels 15-22. That could work.

The lower 3 narrow band MURS channels the harmonics are around 455 MHz. That would be a problem.

[WSAQ296]

On 10/28/2025 at 4:22 PM, WRYS709 said:

I'm holding out for THIS "combo"...

Shouldn't that be H.A.M. and eggs? 

[WRYS709]

4 hours ago, WSAQ296 said:

Shouldn't that be H.A.M. and eggs? 

That's why I have no faith in A.I.! 

[WRUE951]

shhhhh..  just do it anyway. 

[WRTC928]

TBH, I'm not sure the performance characteristics of the antenna matter very much. How good does an antenna have to be to perform adequately on 2 watts at short range from a handheld? Almost any 2m/70cm antenna would probably do well enough for the average user.

[WRYS709]

17 minutes ago, WRTC928 said:

TBH, I'm not sure the performance characteristics of the antenna matter very much. How good does an antenna have to be to perform adequately on 2 watts at short range from a handheld? Almost any 2m/70cm antenna would probably do well enough for the average user.

While I agree with your last sentence; antennas are everything!

[WRTC928]

2 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

While I agree with your last sentence; antennas are everything!

Sure, but that's for radio enthusiasts like you and me. People who are using FRS and MURS could probably get what they need/want with a straightened paperclip. We're not going to buy a FRS/MURS combo radio no matter what antenna they put on it, unless just for curiosity.

[WRYS709]

2 hours ago, WRTC928 said:

Sure, but that's for radio enthusiasts like you and me. People who are using FRS and MURS could probably get what they need/want with a straightened paperclip. We're not going to buy a FRS/MURS combo radio no matter what antenna they put on it, unless just for curiosity.

I am not sure who you were originally responding to but: FRS antennas are fixed and can’t be removed; and, I repeat, antennas are everything!

 

I connected my MURS radio to my rooftop Comet antenna and made a 22 mile line of sight conversation 

[WRTC928]

17 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

I am not sure who you were originally responding to but: FRS antennas are fixed and can’t be removed; and, I repeat, antennas are everything!

 

I connected my MURS radio to my rooftop Comet antenna and made a 22 mile line of sight conversation 

I don't doubt it, but my point was that potentially a handheld FRS/MURS radio with a fixed 2m/70cm antenna similar to what comes on Baofengs might sell well. The vast majority of people who buy an FRS or MURS radio will never do anything with it except key up and talk to their family/friends who aren't too far away. Guys like you or me -- who want to get a bit more out of the radio -- would still buy a dedicated MURS unit and put a better antenna on it.

22 miles isn't a particularly difficult stretch on 2 watts if you have good LOS. I can routinely talk to my club's VHF and UHF repeaters from my house 20+ miles away with 2 watts and a rubber duck. I'm on an elevated terrain feature with a Comet CX-333 antenna (4.7 dBd gain on 2 meters) on a 35' mast, and if I plug a 2 watt HT into it, I can actually step on people running more power.

I don't dispute that the antenna is everything to us radio nerds, but I think you could sell a lot of radios to people who are satisfied with "good enough" for what they want to do. I'm speculating about whether it would sell, not whether it would be a particularly good performer by our standards.

[WRYS709]

I am not sure where you are heading with this thread?

HTs cannot be compared to a fixed,  elevated Comet CX-333 communicating with a fixed, elevated repeater

[WRTC928]

1 hour ago, WRYS709 said:

I am not sure where you are heading with this thread?

HTs cannot be compared to a fixed,  elevated Comet CX-333 communicating with a fixed, elevated repeater

My original question was whether a combination FRS/MURS radio was not allowed. The other implied question was whether it would sell. You seemed to say that it wouldn't sell because you couldn't equip it with an antenna that performed well. You gave the example of attaching your MURS radio to an elevated antenna and getting communication at 22 miles. I agreed that can happen and said I've experienced it myself. I went on to say that while that's important to you, most potential purchasers would be satisfied with a fixed dual-band HT antenna. To the average FRS/MURS purchaser, the antenna isn't "everything"; it's barely even a consideration. They're not expecting 22 miles. People who want that kind of performance from a MURS radio can buy a dedicated MURS unit and attach it to an elevated antenna with gain. I believe that for most people, having an antenna that didn't perform very well by your standards wouldn't matter, and I stand by that statement.

[WRYS709]

1 hour ago, WRTC928 said:

The other implied question was whether it would sell…

I believe that for most people, having an antenna that didn't perform very well by your standards wouldn't matter, and I stand by that statement.

Thank you for your recap; I was getting confused. 

I am not holding my breath that one will be released and I am standing by that statement.