Some DMR questions.

[TNFrank]

Ok, now that I've got my DMR I.D. numbers(yes, I got 2 of them, not sure why??) why did I get issued 2 I.D. numbers? Both are for DMR and P25 but one also includes CCS7(???) whatever that is. I guess I've got a LOT of YouTube videos to watch. 

Also, other than not being able to run OpenGD77 Firmware, why is the Radtel RT-4D a bad DMR radio?  It was the only one within my budget and I just want to do basic DMR stuff so will it work ok? 

[WRYS709]

37 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

Ok, now that I've got my DMR I.D. numbers(yes, I got 2 of them, not sure why??) why did I get issued 2 I.D. numbers? Both are for DMR and P25 but one also includes CCS7(???) whatever that is. I guess I've got a LOT of YouTube videos to watch. 

Also, other than not being able to run OpenGD77 Firmware, why is the Radtel RT-4D a bad DMR radio?  It was the only one within my budget and I just want to do basic DMR stuff so will it work ok? 

Ok, you have moved this discussion to this thread and I will answer all of your questions here:

I have not read L.Scott's attachment paper about DMR and I suspect that it is chocked full of helpful information.  I will try to read it later.

My experience with DMR is specifically Ham Radio and Brandmeister.  There is a whole world of DMR use in the Business Bands that pre-date all this, but that is not my experience.

Brandmeister is the protocol that took a primarily business radio format and converted it into a Ham Radio friendly style.

I discovered the Baofeng UV-5R in 2016 on Amazon and given the price point I quickly started to build a small collection: 5 watts, then tri-band, then 8 watts and then I started buying accessories, primarily higher capacity rechargeable batteries.  Remember accessories can add up in cost, so this became a factor when I decided to jump into DMR in 2018.

I discovered that Radioddity took the electronics of their GD-77 model and reformulated them to fit in a UV-5R case and sold it as the RD-5R.  As the then cheapest DMR HT available at that time, I purchased one to experiment with; in the event it bored me and I put it up on the shelf.  The other importance of that model, other than price, was that my collection of UV-5R accessories, primarily my high capacity batteries, fit on and worked with the RD-5R.

The initial problem with DMR is the learning curve to write your own "code plug" which tells the radio all of the necessary parameters are needed.  

Chirp and most analog radios are programmed like a "flat" database (think of a spreadsheet, where each column tells the analog radio what channel number, channel name, frequency, offset and tones are needed for each channel).

DMR is programmed like a "relational" database which creates separate groups of related information and the software, as directed by the codeplug, tells each channel how to utilize the important factors needed to communicate with a specific TalkGroup.

Once you understand the underlying definitions, DMR gets easier and easier to use.  Hence, getting a codeplug from a ham radio group or "Elmer" in your area is a great way to start and modify it from there for your needs.

The problem with the cheaper, starter DMR radios, is that they are missing more advanced features and more complicated to program.

The OpenGD77 project developed a new firmware for many of these "cheapies" so that they acquire the more advanced features of radios hundreds of dollars more expensive and ease up the required codeplug, since a codeplug for one OpenGD77 radio will work in all of your OpenGD77 radios.

The problem with my historical experience is that Radioddity stopped manufacturing the RD-5R so Baofeng stepped in and came out with their version, the DM-5R Model 2, but now that one is out of production too.

Earlier this year I purchased the Baofeng DM-1701, the now cheapest of their DMR HTs available, to see how easy it was to install OpenGD 77.  It was about $50 from AliExpress and OpenGD77 installed very easily and my existing codeplug worked immediately.  Not being interested in using that radio over my RD-5R and DM-5R, I gave it away to a local new Ham who made a donation to our analog and DMR Repeater Group.

There is much "excitement" about the DM-32 just released by Baofeng, but since it is not OpenGD77 compatible, I have no interest in it as an "inexpensive" DMR radio.

That all being said, you have made your choice and I have no experience with that radio.  It will of course work for you with the limitations of "cheapie" features and more complicated programming.  But both disadvantages can be overcome and you will enjoy DMR.

Good luck!

[TNFrank]

So the DM-1701 would be a decent way to go then? I was able to cancel the order for the RT-4D so now I need to find a good, inexpensive DMR radio to start off with.   

[WRYS709]

4 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

So the DM-1701 would be a decent way to go then? I was able to cancel the order for the RT-4D so now I need to find a good, inexpensive DMR radio to start off with.   

Yes.

Do you have access to a DMR repeater from your home or will you use a hotspot (which acts like a "mini-repeater" and connects to the internet through WiFi)?

[WRYS709]

Another option is the TYT - MD-390 with OpenGD77 already installed for $119 with free shipping from Los Angeles, but this might be out of your price range:

https://letsgetreadyinc.com/opengd390plus

[NOTE: I do not get a commission; I am only a satisfied customer of this company]

[TNFrank]

We have DMR Repeaters both West of my and South of me that I can hit.  The TYT-390 is out of my budget. The DM-1701 will be close to what I'm looking to spend. I'm going to order that one and see how it works out. I really don't want to mess with Firmware having bricked 2 Tidradio H8's in the past. So will the stock Firmware in the DM-1701 be good enough? 

[WRYS709]

1 minute ago, TNFrank said:

We have DMR Repeaters both West of my and South of me that I can hit.  The TYT-390 is out of my budget. The DM-1701 will be close to what I'm looking to spend. I'm going to order that one and see how it works out. I really don't want to mess with Firmware having bricked 2 Tidradio H8's in the past. So will the stock Firmware in the DM-1701 be good enough? 

Yes, it will be good "out of the box" and available to you to upgrade the firmware to OpenGD77 when you are more comfortable with that process.

In my experience, I could not get the DM-1701 to transmit on GMRS, but @BoxCar responded that they can be "opened." Perhaps he will reply with more information.

My RD-5R and DM-5R both easily work on GMRS and MURS (analog, of course!)

[SteveShannon]

OpenGD77 definitely makes DMR easier to program and you can’t beat the price (free). 
Other benefits of OpenGD77 include the built in support for for voice prompts which was important for me as I programmed the radio for a blind and partially deaf friend. 
I bought the Tytera MD UV380. It was about $80, which was pretty low for a decent DMR radio. There’s a version of OpenGD 77 just for it called Open UV380. 
I’m not suggesting that the TYT MD UV380 (or 390 if you want waterproof) is better than the DM-1701 because I don’t know if it is but it’s definitely a decent choice. 

[TNFrank]

Thanks for all the info guys. I've got the DM-1701 on the way. It'll be fun learning how to program it. Getting my age you've got to always be learning something to say a bit sharp. 

[WRQI583]

19 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

Thanks for all the info guys. I've got the DM-1701 on the way. It'll be fun learning how to program it. Getting my age you've got to always be learning something to say a bit sharp. 

That was my first radio. It's a decent radio to get started with. If you decide to upgrade eventually to a better DMR radio, watch YouTube videos, do your research. There are several good radios that, in my opinion, are equal in quality. They all have a slightly different features that will apply better to your situation. 

[TNFrank]

I still don't know why I got 2 I.D. numbers. Maybe for a second radio of something?'

[SteveShannon]

23 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

I still don't know why I got 2 I.D. numbers. Maybe for a second radio of something?'

I don’t think that’s why. I have multiple radios but all use the same ID. There’s a secondary number that must be used for multiple hotspots to keep them unique. 

[Northcutt114]

Apologies if this is a little off-topic but it is a "DMR question." 

What, exactly is DMR? I recognize that it is digital radio. I use a DMR radio at work daily and only now, since getting into radio, am I beginning to understand that I don't really know what it is. Like I said, I get that's it digital, as opposed to analog. I took my UV-5R to work one day and it was interesting hearing what it sounded like on my work DMR radio, and how I could see the Boafeng RX when I keyed up on the work radio but couldn't hear anything. I guess since my employer has the DMR license, I don't need it to use the radio?

Is it basically just digital GMRS? Meaning you can put encryption on it to "secure" comms? I downloaded the motorola software and piddled around with it. I find it very similar to CHIRP, but I keep reading about something called a "codeplug" that is needed to program DMR radios? And apparently there are "talk groups" and "time slots" on repeaters. I kind of have a grasp of it. Like I said, I was able to download the motorola settings and kind of backwards engineer how to program one.

Also, with HAM and GMRS there is the constant station identification going on...none of that is needed in DMR land? Because why?

Just curious, as I continue to learn. Thanks!

 

[Northcutt114]

38 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

I still don't know why I got 2 I.D. numbers. Maybe for a second radio of something?'

I think it has something to do with setting up a repeater. One ID is for the radios you would use, the other is for the repeater.

At least that is what I was told was the situation at my job. We have two ID's. One is for the repeater, the other covers all the HT's that talk on it.

 

[TNFrank]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

I don’t think that’s why. I have multiple radios but all use the same ID. There’s a secondary number that must be used for multiple hotspots to keep them unique. 

I was told for hotspots use my primary number with the addition of "01", "02", etc. I'll just use my first number since I don't plan on setting up a hotspot but you never know.

DMR is more of a Digital HAM radio than GMRS since it uses HAM frequencies. I'm still learning too but from what I understand if you TX to a single DMR I.D. number only that number will hear you. You can also make groups of people and only they'll hear you or TX to an entire Talk Group which will be more like "normal" radio where everyone will hear you.

I'll be fun to learn all of this.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, Northcutt114 said:

Also, with HAM and GMRS there is the constant station identification going on...none of that is needed in DMR land? Because why?

You MUST ID as required by the rules. This is true for other digital voice modes. It’s also a common misconception that using a DMR ID is a substitute for your FCC issued call sign. It most definitely is not.

For more info on CCS7 follow the link below:

https://brandmeisternetwork.blogspot.com/2016/03/dmr-user-repeater-registration.html

[SteveShannon]

24 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

I understand if you TX to a single DMR I.D. number only that number will hear you.

I think only they will be alerted but anyone on the same Timeslot and frequency (and possibly color code) will hear you. 

[WRYS709]

3 hours ago, TNFrank said:

I still don't know why I got 2 I.D. numbers. Maybe for a second radio of something?'

You probably clicked the website button twice after thinking the first time it did not go through...

[TNFrank]

This guy has a good video on programming the DM-1701. According to the video "Private" will only TX to the radio you selected.

Also, you're only allowed one I.D. so I don't think they'd give me more than I'm allowed.

 

[Lscott]

8 hours ago, TNFrank said:

Also, you're only allowed one I.D. so I don't think they'd give me more than I'm allowed.

They can give you two but you must really must need the second one. They are getting very pis*y-as*ed about people getting multiple DMR ID's, and don't need them. DMR can only handle a max of about 16 million ID's. If they don't clamp down on people getting a bunch sooner or later those will run out. I don't see that happening any time soon but you do have to watch out.

I believe you can use your DMR ID for P25 as the CCS7 ID. I haven't looked at this in a long while so I could be wrong on this part.

While you're there you can also apply for an NXDN ID too. 

I have both so I'm covered for all three modes.

DMR: 3122951 

NXDN: 765

[TNFrank]

Here's a pic of what I have. One I.D. will do 3 modes and the other will do 2. 

[TNFrank]

If my radio comes with GD77 installed do I still use the factory CPS or is there one made just for GD77 that I'll need to use?

Also, would it be possible to add a DMR section to the Forum?

[SteveShannon]

Just now, TNFrank said:

If my radio comes with GD77 installed do I still use the factory CPS or is there one made just for GD77 that I'll need to use?

Also, would it be possible to add a DMR section to the Forum?

You have to use the OpenGD77 CPS.  You want to.  That’s the whole point of going to OpenGD77 is to be able to use the much simpler CPS.

[Lscott]

39 minutes ago, TNFrank said:

Here's a pic of what I have. One I.D. will do 3 modes and the other will do 2. 

That's sort of interesting. You have two different ID's that both show as working for DMR/P25. Not sure why the first one shows for DMR/P25/CCS7 since your DMR ID should work for that already unless they are maintaining two separate databases for DMR and CCS7.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

That's sort of interesting. You have two different ID's that both show as working for DMR/P25. Not sure why the first one shows for DMR/P25/CCS7 since your DMR ID should work for that already unless they are maintaining two separate databases for DMR and CCS7.

I agree.  I don’t understand.