Handheld power restriction, 5 watts vs. 10?

[WSHT233]

Can anyone offer insight into the rationale of GMRS HH radios being limited in TX power to 5 Watts, vs. the same radio approved for Ham allowed 10?

 

[WRYS709]

You can go up to 50 watts on Channels 15-30

[WSHT233]

12 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

You can go up to 50 watts on Channels 15-30

Sure, with a base station or mobile with the appropriate power rating.

I'm specifically curious about the power limit on the handheld hardware.

Case in point, the ubiquitous Boafeng UV series comes in a 5 watt max power for their GMRS version (UV-5G Plus) and the HAM option is 10 Watts (UV-5RM). 

[Northcutt114]

12 minutes ago, WSHT233 said:

I'm specifically curious about the power limit on the handheld hardware.

Case in point, the ubiquitous Boafeng UV series comes in a 5 watt max power for their GMRS version (UV-5G Plus) and the HAM option is 10 Watts (UV-5RM). 

My guess is distance. GMRS, within its original design, is for groups out and about. 5w is plenty for an HT. For whatever it's worth, I have 5w and 10w HT's. Both hit a repeater 40 miles from my house and no one call tell which one I'm on.

[WRUE951]

the only difference you will notice between 5 watt and 10 watt is the batter draw on higher power. 

 

[WRYS709]

39 minutes ago, WSHT233 said:

Sure, with a base station or mobile with the appropriate power rating.

I'm specifically curious about the power limit on the handheld hardware.

Case in point, the ubiquitous Boafeng UV series comes in a 5 watt max power for their GMRS version (UV-5G Plus) and the HAM option is 10 Watts (UV-5RM). 

If GMRS were allowed 10 watts on Channels 1-7, Baofeng would introduce a 15 watt version for Hams. 

[WSHT233]

13 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

the only difference you will notice between 5 watt and 10 watt is the batter draw on higher power. 

 

Probably true - I'm just wondering why the difference in the regulations or manufacturing.

[Northcutt114]

10 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

If GMRS were allowed 10 watts on Channels 1-7, Baofeng would introduce a 15 watt version for Hams. 

And it still wouldn't produce 15w.

[WRYS709]

48 minutes ago, WSHT233 said:

Probably true - I'm just wondering why the difference in the regulations or manufacturing.

If GMRS allows all the features of Ham Radio, why require a licensing test for Ham Radio?

[WRYT601]

Just now, WRYS709 said:

If GMRS allows all the features of Ham Radio, why require a licensing test forcHam Radio?

I'm not saying this is the only reason (there are many), but one of the reasons for amateur radio was for advancement of the art and to increase the odds of making discoveries beneficial to all.

With that being one goal in mind, I believe it would be hard for someone to provide anything useful in terms of advancing the art if you can't even pass a tech exam. It is also hard to believe that a person unwilling to study for and take a 35-question test would have the motivation to be a community asset during a time of need, such as skywarn, disaster relief, or special event coordination. 

There are people who like using radios, and then there are people passionate about understanding it.  Amateur radio is for the latter and I think there should continue to be a distinction between the two groups.  

There are unlicensed parts of the spectrum, and as a ham myself, I would like to see unlicensed operation on a few more bands.  But I don't think it should be a free-for-all.  CB is a shit show, so is 40m, and there is only so much spectrum for everyone to share.  

I would like to see the people who get upset about amateur radio licensing put a little more effort into understanding the fundamentals of radio before having an opinion about the rules that govern it.  A little understanding goes a long way.

As for power, a couple more watts won't mean a thing.  This is where that radio education and common sense come into play.  Consider the fact that you need to double the power twice to cause a 1 S-unit (6dB) improvement in signal at the receiver.  Where do you draw the line between battery life and talk range?  You really want your battery to die within a half hour of casual use for an extra quarter mile?

[WSHT233]

5 minutes ago, WRYT601 said:

I'm not saying this is the only reason (there are many), but one of the reasons for amateur radio was for advancement of the art and to increase the odds of making discoveries beneficial to all.

With that being one goal in mind, I believe it would be hard for someone to provide anything useful in terms of advancing the art if you can't even pass a tech exam. It is also hard to believe that a person unwilling to study for and take a 35-question test would have the motivation to be a community asset during a time of need, such as skywarn, disaster relief, or special event coordination. 

There are people who like using radios, and then there are people passionate about understanding it.  Amateur radio is for the latter and I think there should continue to be a distinction between the two groups.  

There are unlicensed parts of the spectrum, and as a ham myself, I would like to see unlicensed operation on a few more bands.  But I don't think it should be a free-for-all.  CB is a shit show, so is 40m, and there is only so much spectrum for everyone to share.  

I would like to see the people who get upset about amateur radio licensing put a little more effort into understanding the fundamentals of radio before having an opinion about the rules that govern it.  A little understanding goes a long way.

As for power, a couple more watts won't mean a thing.  This is where that radio education and common sense come into play.  Consider the fact that you need to double the power twice to cause a 1 S-unit (6dB) improvement in signal at the receiver.  Where do you draw the line between battery life and talk range?  You really want your battery to die within a half hour of casual use for an extra quarter mile?

Thanks for the perspective! I'm pretty new to this field, and don't have the benefit of coming into it via a HAM or CB background.

I am still curious though about why these radios are made with such a specific, and admittedly, trivial difference in wattage cap, especially considering the 50 watt ceiling for GMRS in base station/mobile.

I don't need or want a 10 watt walkie per se, but why have the two tiers at all?

Is there a technical element of the HAM frequencies that benefit from a 5 watt differential in hand held equipment?

Is there an FCC statement in the minutiae I just am not familiar with?

 

[WRYT601]

34 minutes ago, WSHT233 said:

Thanks for the perspective! I'm pretty new to this field, and don't have the benefit of coming into it via a HAM or CB background.

I am still curious though about why these radios are made with such a specific, and admittedly, trivial difference in wattage cap, especially considering the 50 watt ceiling for GMRS in base station/mobile.

I don't need or want a 10 watt walkie per se, but why have the two tiers at all?

Is there a technical element of the HAM frequencies that benefit from a 5 watt differential in hand held equipment?

Is there an FCC statement in the minutiae I just am not familiar with?

 

Most of the higher wattage claims are just a selling point.  There's no shortage of people who make purchasing decisions based on watts alone and the industry exploits that. 

As for ham gear, it is common to run external amplifiers where input wattage matters from amp to amp.  I don't know if it is still a thing, but I remember a time when GMRS radios couldn't have removable antennas to prevent amplifier usage.  Now, with the increased power limit, I don't see that reason being valid anymore and I think the same options should be offered to GMRS radios.  However, there still remains the battery vs benefit equation to consider and it really comes down to personal choice.  How many people do you know that set their handhelds to low power?  Probably none.  Even if they are only a half mile apart, those things are always on max. 

My recommendation is to keep the handhelds low power so you can depend on your battery longer since mobile 50w units are readily available for long hauls (relatively speaking).  

One final note on the subject.  I once gutted a baofeng so I could run my VNA cable up inside the radio to evaluate the antenna when holding the radio and I can say with absolute certainty that the input impedance varies significantly as the radio is moved around.  If you pump 15 watts into a mismatch, one of two things will happen.  The radio will detect it and fold back the power to protect itself (defeating the point of more power), or you will smoke the final.  At 15w into 50ohm, you have sqrt(15*50)= 27 Vrms.  Into a bad mismatch, the voltage coming back into the radio can cause that number to double, and the final amplifier must take it.  I don't think the final in a HT would really care for 60Vrms coming back into it.  If you want to run watts, you want an antenna (external) with a predictable feed point impedance (something you can't have with a handheld alone).

[WSHT233]

1 hour ago, WRYT601 said:

Most of the higher wattage claims are just a selling point.  There's no shortage of people who make purchasing decisions based on watts alone and the industry exploits that. 

As for ham gear, it is common to run external amplifiers where input wattage matters from amp to amp.  I don't know if it is still a thing, but I remember a time when GMRS radios couldn't have removable antennas to prevent amplifier usage.  Now, with the increased power limit, I don't see that reason being valid anymore and I think the same options should be offered to GMRS radios.  However, there still remains the battery vs benefit equation to consider and it really comes down to personal choice.  How many people do you know that set their handhelds to low power?  Probably none.  Even if they are only a half mile apart, those things are always on max. 

My recommendation is to keep the handhelds low power so you can depend on your battery longer since mobile 50w units are readily available for long hauls (relatively speaking).  

One final note on the subject.  I once gutted a baofeng so I could run my VNA cable up inside the radio to evaluate the antenna when holding the radio and I can say with absolute certainty that the input impedance varies significantly as the radio is moved around.  If you pump 15 watts into a mismatch, one of two things will happen.  The radio will detect it and fold back the power to protect itself (defeating the point of more power), or you will smoke the final.  At 15w into 50ohm, you have sqrt(15*50)= 27 Vrms.  Into a bad mismatch, the voltage coming back into the radio can cause that number to double, and the final amplifier must take it.  I don't think the final in a HT would really care for 60Vrms coming back into it.  If you want to run watts, you want an antenna (external) with a predictable feed point impedance (something you can't have with a handheld alone).

That actually ties into my next inquiry - are inline UHF amplifiers a thing?

Is it viable to add a booster module between your handheld radio and gain antenna if you want to kludge together a higher performing base station without getting a dedicated base/mobile radio?

I get the appeal of a console style permanent/local station, but in my specific case, I'm wondering if you could make a weird little interface that could accommodate any hand held radio and turn it into an ad hoc base?

[WRYT601]

Sure is.  There are a lot of UHF amplifiers out there.  Just make sure you choose one for that frequency range and input wattage.  

The most important part about UHF is the coax.  Coax cable is extremely lossy at UHF.  It is not hard to lose over half your output power in your coax.  For long runs, heliax is a common low-loss choice (just expensive and requires a special crimper).  Most coax datasheets will show the loss per 100 feet at various frequencies.

[Lscott]

11 hours ago, WSHT233 said:

Is it viable to add a booster module between your handheld radio and gain antenna if you want to kludge together a higher performing base station without getting a dedicated base/mobile radio?

Yes. 

First point is the FCC certification requirement. Just like for the radios Part 95 certification is required. For UHF amplifiers used on GMRS that's almost non existent. If you don't care about the certification bit there are a few out there that are usable. When using the amplifier you're also responsible to follow the ERP, effective radiated power, based on the frequency/channel as outlined in the FCC rules.

Second point. Even at the minimum output power, usually 1 watt, on many, if not most, HT's when run through the external amplifier could exceed the legal limit. For example on channels 1-7 the limit is 5 watts. The user would then need some method to bypass the amplifier, or turn it off. Likely not very convenient.  

Third point. Many HT's have a difficult time handling high strength RF signals. This is why some HT's seem to work OK using the included rubber duck antenna, but suffer from de-sense when connected to a high gain roof mounted antenna. Purpose built base/mobile radios typically do better in that area. Some of the mobile CCR's, cheap Chinese radios, have been found to suffer the same fate. That's one of the corners cut to lower the cost.

[RoadApple]

19 hours ago, WSHT233 said:

Can anyone offer insight into the rationale of GMRS HH radios being limited in TX power to 5 Watts, vs. the same radio approved for Ham allowed 10?

You raise an interesting question. There are a great many things in life that appear somewhat arbitrary and arguably many of the FCC rules are no exception.  While the technical aspects of an HT's signal range or battery life are relevant to TX power, to your point, it is still difficult to understand why those considerations would necessarily be more or less relevant to one group vs another (GMRS vs. Ham) with both services being in the same general section of UHF spectrum. 

If there is a definitive answer, I don't know what it is.   However, I'm sure there is no shortage of opinions or theories.  My humble guess, for what it is worth, is that the HT TX power difference is simply rooted in the influence and lobbying power of one group vs. the other during the FCC rule making process with one service being classified as non-commercial allocation (70cm Ham: 420Mhz - 450Mhz) and the other service classified as consumer-oriented (GMRS: 462/467Mhz).

[SteveShannon]

20 hours ago, WSHT233 said:

Can anyone offer insight into the rationale of GMRS HH radios being limited in TX power to 5 Watts, vs. the same radio approved for Ham allowed 10?

 

There is no regulation limiting the power output to less than 50 watts for handheld GMRS radios, except for the interstitial channels.

[Lscott]

The links might be a good place to start researching.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/1.1310

https://fcc.report/FCC-ID/CCKPC0205/4218697.pdf

https://practicalantennas.com/measurements/exposure/

[tweiss3]

20 hours ago, WSHT233 said:

Can anyone offer insight into the rationale of GMRS HH radios being limited in TX power to 5 Watts, vs. the same radio approved for Ham allowed 10?

 

Could be a number of things. Could be that they want to align more with industry standard to blend in and get the Part 95 certification. Could be that the hardware is identical, but power dives off that far from the ham frequencies because it is out of the design frequencies and starts becoming really inefficient. Could be that the ham version never really put out 10W as claimed.

[RoadApple]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

There is no regulation limiting the power output to less than 50 watts for handheld GMRS radios, except for the interstitial channels.

Agreed, but I guess this gets us back to the OP's question.  Like I said, my guess is that the difference is rooted in influence and lobbying with the FCC.  Manufactures often have both Ham and GMRS versions of the same radio, but the GMRS radios require Part 95 certification.  Since GMRS radios are regarded as "consumer devices", I doubt any manufacturer presenting a >5W HT would be awarded Part 95 certification, even though there is no explicit FCC rule against it.  Hams are trusted to self-monitor operations while consumers are not trusted much at all.     Just my humble opinion....

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, RoadApple said:

Agreed, but I guess this gets us back to the OP's question.  Like I said, my guess is that the difference is rooted in influence and lobbying with the FCC.  Manufactures often have both Ham and GMRS versions of the same radio, but the GMRS radios require Part 95 certification.  Since GMRS radios are regarded as "consumer devices", I doubt any manufacturer presenting a >5W HT would be awarded Part 95 certification, even though there is no explicit FCC rule against it.  Hams are trusted to self-monitor operations while consumers are not trusted much at all.     Just my humble opinion....

There’s no reason to think that a greater than 5 watt handheld would have certification withheld. When someone wrote to the FCC asking what the limit was for a GMRS handheld on either of the main groups of channels they answered that handhelds fall under portables which fall under mobiles unless otherwise specified. 

[Northcutt114]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/177637432112?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=177637432112&targetid=2450249296795&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1015243&poi=&campaignid=21214315381&mkgroupid=188184246123&rlsatarget=pla-2450249296795&abcId=9407526&merchantid=771489909&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21214315381&gclid=CjwKCAiAmp3LBhAkEiwAJM2JUDq4ZMAU9FAKVvrVfQHhgOAQPbJDCMeAuGvZzhbLbhaN8pIhljXvmxoCGsMQAvD_BwE

 

I mean, this Baofeng claims 20w. 

Caveat emptor and whatnot.

[HHD1]

7 minutes ago, Northcutt114 said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/177637432112?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=177637432112&targetid=2450249296795&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1015243&poi=&campaignid=21214315381&mkgroupid=188184246123&rlsatarget=pla-2450249296795&abcId=9407526&merchantid=771489909&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21214315381&gclid=CjwKCAiAmp3LBhAkEiwAJM2JUDq4ZMAU9FAKVvrVfQHhgOAQPbJDCMeAuGvZzhbLbhaN8pIhljXvmxoCGsMQAvD_BwE

 

I mean, this Baofeng claims 20w. 

Caveat emptor and whatnot.

oooooh, I haven't seen that one yet....

[Northcutt114]

Just now, HHD1 said:

oooooh, I haven't seen that one yet....

There's a youtube video out there somewhere of a guy testing it on a meter. It registers roughly 5w on all channels he tests it on. Did he get a dud or is Baofeng being deceptive? Hard to say on either case, but I'm not gambling $40 to find out.

Let us know if you pull the trigger.

 

[Northcutt114]

https://www.twowayradio.us/product/iradio-uv-99-20w/

 

There's also this one, that claims 20w.