Handheld power restriction, 5 watts vs. 10?

[HHD1]

1 minute ago, Northcutt114 said:

There's a youtube video out there somewhere of a guy testing it on a meter. It registers roughly 5w on all channels he tests it on. Did he get a dud or is Baofeng being deceptive? Hard to say on either case, but I'm not gambling $40 to find out.

Let us know if you pull the trigger.

 

I find it strange that there's no model number listed.  So, I'm skeptical. Plus, I'm not too sure I'd like to fire off 40 watts that close to my melon anyway.

[HHD1]

2 minutes ago, Northcutt114 said:

https://www.twowayradio.us/product/iradio-uv-99-20w/

 

There's also this one, that claims 20w. 

I like how they put the word "Really" next to the 20W.  Cuz now... I'm convinced.  

[Northcutt114]

4 minutes ago, HHD1 said:

I like how they put the word "Really" next to the 20W.  Cuz now... I'm convinced.  

And the fact that they misspelled "mutli" doesn't help either...neither does the fact that it's a knockoff website designed to look like twowayradios.com.

But yeah, 20w. Really.

 

[Northcutt114]

 

[Northcutt114]

 

[HHD1]

14 minutes ago, HHD1 said:

I find it strange that there's no model number listed.  So, I'm skeptical. Plus, I'm not too sure I'd like to fire off 40 watts that close to my melon anyway.

oops I misread.  It's only 20 watts.  My skull is thick enough for that...

[Northcutt114]

4 minutes ago, HHD1 said:

oops I misread.  It's only 20 watts.

Spoiler alert: it's not.

 

[RoadApple]

2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

There’s no reason to think that a greater than 5 watt handheld would have certification withheld. 

Steve, more often than not you are correct so I will defer to your expertise.  But I'm still a skeptic.  

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, RoadApple said:

Steve, more often than not you are correct so I will defer to your expertise.  But I'm still a skeptic.  

Thank you.  The whole certification process looks like it’s limited only by the manufacturer’s honesty anyway!

A five watt handheld really has just as much practical range as anything that a person could fit into a similar sized chassis anyway. Adding more power will only deplete the battery faster.

 

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, RoadApple said:

Steve, more often than not you are correct so I will defer to your expertise.  But I'm still a skeptic.  

I hope your deference is not misplaced. I applaud your skepticism. 

[WRTT751]

If you actually study the material for a ham license, you will learn how and why the FCC came up with 5 watts for handheld radios. There are specific questions in the test pool regarding this subject. You can find how much RF power your body can absorb safely with a little research. I was under the belief that ham radio handhelds are also limited to 5 watts by FCC regulation, but I could be mistaken and I don't feel like googling. I just believe in the science I studied for the ham license, and accept I don't want 10 watts in my face.

It has been postulated that unscrupulous manufacturers do a little bait and switch with FCC testing and radio licenses. They submit a radio for testing that confirms to 5 watts, get the radio licensed, then add a couple watts, add "Plus" to the model name, and squeak by with no oversight. I am beginning to see GMRS handheld radios at 8 watts.

I would guess that because GMRS is limited to 5 watts and .5 watts for 1/2 of the channels by FCC regulation, it's just not worth it to make handhelds to use more power on the remaining channels and keep the FCC limits for the lower channels. Let's hope there is never a market for any GMRS or FRS radio that exceeds FCC limits on those lower channels - leave those channels for families and kids playing walkie talkie. On VHF and UHF, ARS doesn't have wattage limits like that, so there is a market for more power on all available frequencies.

As most people have said, 10 watts isn't going to get much more distance than 5 watts, it is not "double the power", but you may be a little clearer for repeaters and stations on the edge of 5 watts for your location and conditions. I doubt you will hit any repeater you don't currently hit.

I do have a couple 10 watt handhelds for ARS, but I put those in medium power for actual HT use, which is rare. I use them either attached to a roof antenna in my basement shack, or attached to a hood mounted mobile antenna in my vehicle.

[Lscott]

17 minutes ago, WRTT751 said:

If you actually study the material for a ham license, you will learn how and why the FCC came up with 5 watts for handheld radios. There are specific questions in the test pool regarding this subject. You can find how much RF power your body can absorb safely with a little research. I was under the belief that ham radio handhelds are also limited to 5 watts by FCC regulation, but I could be mistaken and I don't feel like googling. I just believe in the science I studied for the ham license, and accept I don't want 10 watts in my face.

It has been postulated that unscrupulous manufacturers do a little bait and switch with FCC testing and radio licenses. They submit a radio for testing that confirms to 5 watts, get the radio licensed, then add a couple watts, add "Plus" to the model name, and squeak by with no oversight. I am beginning to see GMRS handheld radios at 8 watts.

I would guess that because GMRS is limited to 5 watts and .5 watts for 1/2 of the channels by FCC regulation, it's just not worth it to make handhelds to use more power on the remaining channels and keep the FCC limits for the lower channels. Let's hope there is never a market for any GMRS or FRS radio that exceeds FCC limits on those lower channels - leave those channels for families and kids playing walkie talkie. On VHF and UHF, ARS doesn't have wattage limits like that, so there is a market for more power on all available frequencies.

As most people have said, 10 watts isn't going to get much more distance than 5 watts, it is not "double the power", but you may be a little clearer for repeaters and stations on the edge of 5 watts for your location and conditions. I doubt you will hit any repeater you don't currently hit.

I do have a couple 10 watt handhelds for ARS, but I put those in medium power for actual HT use, which is rare. I use them either attached to a roof antenna in my basement shack, or attached to a hood mounted mobile antenna in my vehicle.

For a long time Ham and commercial UHF radios on the 400 to 500 MHz range were typically rated at 4 watts while on VHF it was common to see 5 watts. Now you can regularly find new commercial grade UHF radios in the above range rated at 5 watts. 

I think a major factor was really the power amp stage where the gain, efficiency, on UHF was lower than on VHF. With better devices available I guess it's easier to get 5 watts.

 

[Bogieboy01]

Some of the boofwangs are actually pretty close to what they say... like my ar5rm... rated 10w, , pushes 9.6w on uhf, 9.1 on vhf, also does approx 8.6w on gmrs, all tested into a dummy load, which in .y opinion is more than good enough for "out of band transmit"

[WSEZ903]

Just my two cents from the peanut gallery.

Instead of dumping a lot of money into a crappy cheap radio.  Just save a bit longer and buy a better radio, something commercial grade.  Better radio over all.  How are you going to power and AMP out and about?  How much more distance are you actually going to gain.  The lower channels were designed to be low power so if multiple people are on them, they are not creating interference.  Think of a theme park.

[Radioguy7268]

The 2 issues at play with portable radio power is SAR (Specific Absorption Ratio) - a topic which gets a whole lot deeper the more you study it - along with acceptable battery life for an actually portable package. 

Sure, you can have a 40 watt flamethrower portable, but the 5 lb battery pack comes with it's own backpack, along with a mag mount antenna helmet with a personal pizza pan counterpoise... or just go with the upgraded 10dB Yagi option and remember to make sure the antenna is facing your intended target. 

The real limits are practicality and acceptable levels of non-ionizing radiation.  Judging by some of the folks I've seen at most hamfests, the cautionary tales about too much RF too close to your head probably aren't far off base.

 

[RoadApple]

17 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

The 2 issues at play with portable radio power is SAR (Specific Absorption Ratio) - a topic which gets a whole lot deeper the more you study it - along with acceptable battery life for an actually portable package. 

Sure, you can have a 40 watt flamethrower portable, but the 5 lb battery pack comes with it's own backpack, along with a mag mount antenna helmet with a personal pizza pan counterpoise... or just go with the upgraded 10dB Yagi option and remember to make sure the antenna is facing your intended target. 

The real limits are practicality and acceptable levels of non-ionizing radiation.  Judging by some of the folks I've seen at most hamfests, the cautionary tales about too much RF too close to your head probably aren't far off base.

 

Just don't turn your head when transmitting...

[Lscott]

18 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

The 2 issues at play with portable radio power is SAR (Specific Absorption Ratio) - a topic which gets a whole lot deeper the more you study it - along with acceptable battery life for an actually portable package. 

The issue that's usually NOT discussed is the power dissipation of the radio. Many hand held radios have a power stage that's lucky if it runs better than 50 some percent efficient. So a 10 watt rated radio draws 20 watts from the battery pack, which will die quickly at that rate, with 10 watts getting dumped into the radio's internals. There are Hams who have destroyed their HT's by running at just 5 watts and moderate to high duty cycles from heat build up. Then if the radio doesn't cook up those small palm sized radios end up turning into hand warmers, some times uncomfortably so. Oh, battery packs hate heat too, and being clipped on the back side of the case means it soaks it up, which will shorten the life.  If the radio is hanging on your belt with a speaker mic attached you likely won't notice the problem until it's too late.