(1) Range for base + handheld / (2) base antenna placement

[Guest R James]

I'm a complete newbie to this world, so apologies for the extremely basic nature of these questions.

 

By way of background, I'm looking for a communication tool for my family and me should cell service go down.

A way for us to keep in touch while one of us runs errands, etc.

 

After hours of research, I don't think I'm up for going the ham radio route.

I really don't have time for another hobby....

 

GMRS looks very attractive to me for a lot of the reasons discussed here.

 

Now to my questions.

 

(1) range is important to me. I'm realistic and don't expect to reach out of state. But I would like a 10 mile radius or so of communication.

And here's where the base comes in. I understand that the hand units are quite limited in range. But are those limits assuming hand unit to hand unit communication? Would a powerful base unit be able to communicate with hand units within the range of the base but out of the range of the handheld?

 

(2) I'd like the flexibility of using a mobile unit as my base. I have my eyes on the midland micromobiles. We're I to do that, how would I go about placing an antenna? Can I set it up when needed? Outside a second floor window? In the middle of the back yard?

 

Again, as stated, I really don't know what I'm doing here. Any and all guidance would be most welcome.

 

Thank you

[Radioguy7268]

A base radio is hard pressed to give a reliable 10 mile range to portables unless you get some pretty decent antenna height, and use a pretty good base radio (I don't consider Midland radios to be a good example of quality radio equipment - but that's just my opinion.)

 

More power helps you to transmit OUT. It doesn't help you to receive back IN. A portable has a pretty limited antenna and power output. Antenna height at the base will help to overcome those 2 limitations. Without knowing your surrounding terrain or general area of operation, it's hard to say exactly, but I would say you need to get at least above the treeline in your local area to have any decent shot at 10 miles.

 

All those factors above are why people usually look for Repeaters - as a well placed and well-designed Repeater can easily give a  5 to 10 mile reliable operating radius for handheld portables - and sometimes even further.

[Logan5]

I have a 55' tower and with an HT connected to the feedline and antenna as my base to an HT with a 14" whip antenna, can effectively communicate in excess of 10 miles. a higher power base radio will not make as much difference as the height of the antenna and the quality of feedline. On the HT end however an automobile ground plane antenna, even a MagMount will increase this distance even more.

[Logan5]

However a Mag mount will rust your bonnet and cause metal rot.

[Guest R James]

Thank you for all the advice.

 

Are there antennas particularly good for whipping out / setting up as the need arises?

I'm not looking to permanently affix an antenna to my house.

I'd love the ability to set something up on the fly when and where I need it

[sifert]

Thank you for all the advice.

 

Are there antennas particularly good for whipping out / setting up as the need arises?

I'm not looking to permanently affix an antenna to my house.

I'd love the ability to set something up on the fly when and where I need it

 

I just got this Slim Jim antenna for my go bag, and the clarity it delivers even to a Btech UV-82C is so astonishing, that it could easily be used as a permanent for a decent base radio. I ordered it with the 16' cable so I could tie paracord to it and throw it over a high tree branch. If someone else has a better idea for an on-the-fly antenna, I'm all ears!

[axorlov]

I have a 55' tower and with an HT connected to the feedline and antenna as my base to an HT with a 14" whip antenna, can effectively communicate in excess of 10 miles. a higher power base radio will not make as much difference as the height of the antenna and the quality of feedline. On the HT end however an automobile ground plane antenna, even a MagMount will increase this distance even more.

Another data point:

I have antenna approx 25' off the ground (10 feet mast on top of single-story house). In flat suburbia reliable communication range between base (TK-880H) and HT is around 5 miles. Anything in excess of 5 miles drops to nothing very quickly. Same base station can talk to mobile (also TK-880H), with antenna on a flat roof of SUV, to 8 miles reliably. And I can't check distance longer than 8 miles because I'm in the valley. Get some altitude and 20 miles between HT and base becomes easy (Mt Diablo to Livermore, for locals).

[gman1971]

Sorry Logan5, but your case is not typical. You either live in a very flat place, at the top of a hill, or atop a mount, or even atop a mountain, b/c using 5W UHF where I live (near Madison WI), with my antenna placed atop a 40 feet mast, using Heliax 1/2" feedline doesn't reach reliably more than 5 miles out to HT, and that is spotty at best... even when pushing 50W GMRS out using Vertex Standard EVX-5400 mobile, through the same 40 feet antenna, it barely reaches 10 miles to another EVX-5400 mobile using a vehicle mounted NMO antenna (no magmount crap)... but to HT?... Sorry, but not typical to get 10 miles out of 5W.

 

Using BTECH crap, TYT crap, or in general anything CCR crap, or anything that isn't commercial grade gear will result in disappointment. I've alredy been through the CCR road, and while they do have their uses, reliable comms at long range isn't one of them, and I am talking about all these cheapies with flashy screens and 10 million channels with fancy colored buttons and slick shapes... etc. In the end, my Vertex Standard EVX-5300 G7, with a single digit 8 segment LCD display and a total of 8 channels draws rings around all of these cheapies in terms of what matters: radio reception performance.

 

G.

 

 

I have a 55' tower and with an HT connected to the feedline and antenna as my base to an HT with a 14" whip antenna, can effectively communicate in excess of 10 miles. a higher power base radio will not make as much difference as the height of the antenna and the quality of feedline. On the HT end however an automobile ground plane antenna, even a MagMount will increase this distance even more.

[Guest Guest]

Gman and others,

 

I've heard of BTECH but not TYT or CCR. What brands are they?

Any thoughts in the quality of Midland?

 

I'm leaning towards the 40 watt micromobile as my base and a pair of Midland gxt1000 handsets.

 

Thank you.

[gman1971]

If you want decent radios something like this is what i would look for:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vertex-Standard-VX-131-G4-2-UHF-1channel-2-watt-Job-Site-portable-radios-2/283839353868?hash=item421624d40c:g:1QEAAOSw2aJei2~a

[RickW]

TYT is a brand. The term CCR is an acronym for Cheap Chinese Radios and is used as a criticism for the lower cost products coming from Asia. A number of the folks here do not consider them to be of adequate quality. I have Midland MXT400's and use one for base and one for my vehicle. I also have two MXT115's in several other vehicles. For HT's, I have two BTech GMRS V1's and two Wouxun KG-805G's. Each radio has trade offs, but they all seem to work fairly well. I have compared them to my ham equipment, (such as the ICOM IC-7000) and the receive sensitivity seems comparable. The BTechs had some quality control problems and the replacement also has a defect but I am just going to live with it since it does not seem to degrade the GMRS function. (It is just that the FM radio function will not work and I actually find this useful).

 

The big issue with the Midlands, and something that I completely overlooked when I bought them, is that they can only transmit and receive the same set of CTCSS (PL) tones or the same DTSS tones. You can not have one analog PL tone for TX and a digital DTSS tone for RX. What ever tone you set, it is always on for both TX and RX. Of course, if you are primarily using the equipment for simplex, then this is not really a problem. Midland sells some decent HT's but they do not seem to work at all with repeaters so the company is a bit behind the times in supporting GMRS.

[Guest R James]

Thank you for that explanation.

Yes, I'm thinking primarily simplex ... direct from base to HT.

 

I'd like to eventually experiment with repeaters and such, but, realistically, may never get that far.

[gman1971]

Well, I wouldn't use ham grade gear as the standard to measure the CCRs up against either, when in reality most ham gear is also pretty subpar when compared to commercial or military grade gear. Receiver performance, in particular intermod rejection and selectivity is where most CCRs and ham gear tends to fall flat.

 

The receiver sensitivity is a meaningless figure without taking into account selectivity. The TM-V71a has 0.16 uV sensitivity @ 12 SINAD in VHF/ UHF, which beats the 0.18uV of the IC-7000, and the 0.25uV of the Vertex Standard EVX-5400... but suffers heavily from intermod. When the TM-V71a is tuned to VHF frequencies, the NOAA weather station sitting 2 1/2 miles from home breaks through randomly regardless of whatever frequency you have the radio tuned to. On the other hand, the EVX-5400 hooked to the same antenna, in the same frequency never hears the NOAA station. That is an example of poor receiver performance. The TM-V71a can barely hear anything beyond 10 miles due to the receiver being saturated by the nearby RF noise, but the EVX-5400 almost full quiets from 10 miles away when talking to home from the same 5W portable... The CCRs, in particular all the TYT brands, those will simply desense down to zero when connected to my base antenna so reception range goes to zero.

 

Now, perhaps If you live in a lower RF congested area then, perhaps, a CCR would be fine; but the again, owning a radio that only works in certain conditions is not a good radio to own IMO. If you need urban performance in crowded RF environments, then most of these Cheap Chinese Radios will disappoint.

 

With that said, cheapies CCRs have their uses. For example, the Baofeng BF-1801 (Clone of the TYT  MD-760) works great as a floor intercom radio... just don't expect that radio to make miracles in terms of range.

 

Considering a lot of the Kenwood/Icom/Motorola commercial grade radios are sold for quite a bargain on eBay, I really don't see any reason to own a subpar radio...

 

Buying cheap in radio gear is the surest way to buying twice.

 

G.

 

 

 

TYT is a brand. The term CCR is an acronym for Cheap Chinese Radios and is used as a criticism for the lower cost products coming from Asia. A number of the folks here do not consider them to be of adequate quality. I have Midland MXT400's and use one for base and one for my vehicle. I also have two MXT115's in several other vehicles. For HT's, I have two BTech GMRS V1's and two Wouxun KG-805G's. Each radio has trade offs, but they all seem to work fairly well. I have compared them to my ham equipment, (such as the ICOM IC-7000) and the receive sensitivity seems comparable. The BTechs had some quality control problems and the replacement also has a defect but I am just going to live with it since it does not seem to degrade the GMRS function. (It is just that the FM radio function will not work and I actually find this useful).

 

The big issue with the Midlands, and something that I completely overlooked when I bought them, is that they can only transmit and receive the same set of CTCSS (PL) tones or the same DTSS tones. You can not have one analog PL tone for TX and a digital DTSS tone for RX. What ever tone you set, it is always on for both TX and RX. Of course, if you are primarily using the equipment for simplex, then this is not really a problem. Midland sells some decent HT's but they do not seem to work at all with repeaters so the company is a bit behind the times in supporting GMRS.

[Soladaddy]

Well Ft. Lauderdale is flat as a pancake so 55ft HAAT is above the tree line and over most anything in a residential 'hood.  If I could get 50ft up I'd be over the same obstacles as I'm in Florida as well. That said my lil mast is at 25 ft and VHF has much better range than UHF. Just need an extra 25ft that the HOA won't see.

 

Sorry Logan5, but your case is not typical. You either live in a very flat place, at the top of a hill, or atop a mount, or even atop a mountain, b/c using 5W UHF where I live (near Madison WI), with my antenna placed atop a 40 feet mast, using Heliax 1/2" feedline doesn't reach reliably more than 5 miles out to HT, and that is spotty at best... even when pushing 50W GMRS out using Vertex Standard EVX-5400 mobile, through the same 40 feet antenna, it barely reaches 10 miles to another EVX-5400 mobile using a vehicle mounted NMO antenna (no magmount crap)... but to HT?... Sorry, but not typical to get 10 miles out of 5W.

 

Using BTECH crap, TYT crap, or in general anything CCR crap, or anything that isn't commercial grade gear will result in disappointment. I've alredy been through the CCR road, and while they do have their uses, reliable comms at long range isn't one of them, and I am talking about all these cheapies with flashy screens and 10 million channels with fancy colored buttons and slick shapes... etc. In the end, my Vertex Standard EVX-5300 G7, with a single digit 8 segment LCD display and a total of 8 channels draws rings around all of these cheapies in terms of what matters: radio reception performance.

 

G.

[russwbrill]

 

[berkinet]

Here a list of goodies you'll need for your base setup:

 

Radio https://mid.factoryoutletstore.com/details/457351/midland-mxt400.html?category_id=35162&catalogitemid=421430

 

If you want to save some money, there are GMRS Certified radios available on the used market that are both a lot less expensive than the Midland products, and a lot better.  Search through this forum and you will find many recommendations.

[gman1971]

Yeah, like berkinet said. Get used Kenwood, Icom or Vertex Standard from eBay... much better radios.

 

G.

[Guest R James]

Again, thank you. All very helpful !

[Extreme]

Here a list of goodies you'll need for your base setup:

 

Radio https://mid.factoryoutletstore.com/details/457351/midland-mxt400.html?category_id=35162&catalogitemid=421430

 

Power Supply https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/asr-ss-30m

 

Antenna https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-003375

 

Coax https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-400maxdn100

 

Coax adapter cable https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-8xdx003

 

N to SO-239 Connector https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-1035-1-2

 

N to N double female connector https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-1013-1-2

 

Antenna mast & mounts https://www.channelmaster.com/Antenna_Masts_and_Mounts_s/373.htm

 

That should get you started with your project... Good Luck!!!

 

73,

Russ

 

Great outline.

 

I give up.. what's "73"?  Ham stuff no doubt.

[Jones]

73 is a Morse code leftover meaning "Best Regards".

 

It is made by tapping out the numbers 7 and 3 run together:

 

_ _ . . . . . . _ _

 

Dah Dah di di di di di di Dah Dah

[russwbrill]

 

[Extreme]

As a noob a few months ago I was heading to Midland then found this forum and ended up with a Kenwood TK-880-1 V2 mobile and a Kenwood TK-3170 HT from used-radios.com.  They programmed them both for me to my specs but then I bought the correct cable and downloaded free programming software for both and have done my own programming and setup as well.  All this was with a ton of help from the forum.  A search here for those topics will reveal the how-to so shouldn't have to be repeated.  But the folks on here are outstanding to get you on the path.

 

I also bought a Wouxun 805-G and programmed that from the keypad but had a bit of difficulty with the cable and software on that one.  Finally got it figured out with the recommended ebay cable.

 

So, I would go the same route again, with used commercial gear.  Glad I didn't spend double the cash on the Midland.

 

Edit/Add:  Kenwood 880 is available some places in the 'H' (high power) 40w model.  The standard 880 is 25w but if you dig deep in the forum you'll learn that your antenna and it's placement are much more of a factor than TX power.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Gary - WRAF233

[russwbrill]

 

[Guest R James]

Hi Gary,

 

Well you got a little deeper into the weeds than most run of the mill users want to... Remember, to most, radio is a Tool not a hobby, they just want it to work right out of the box... They don't want to learn software to program it, most just want a simple and effective communications device, that's it..

 

Midland has the right idea in my opinion, they just need to add some additional features for advanced users to make it more than just a Simplex Radio(s). One thing I think their upper end radios should have is Custom Memories. There's no reason a $200 radio shouldn't have 1000 Custom (Banks of 20) Memories that would let a user save custom settings for their favorite GMRS Channels. And, the database that mygmrs.com has should be downloadable into the radio after the user edits it for their local and traveled areas of the country...

 

Anyone have any more features they'd like to see???

 

73,

Russ

That's exactly my stuation. I'm not looking for a new hobby.

I'm looking for an emergency communication tool.

Ideally, the equipment I pick up would allow me to spread my wings should I ever take a greater interest in gmrs radio.

But that's just gravy, icing on the cake, etc.

[Extreme]

Pre-programmed used commercial radios (plug'n play) are available for us run-of-the-mill folks.

 

I got mine from used-radios.com and I'll bet some ebay sellers will program as well.  UR gave me excellent customer service, programmed the radios to my specs (GMRS repeater tones and button assignments included), and provide a 90 day warranty, which they honored when programming wasn't perfect, with a 5 day turnaround.  Yes, I paid more than most ebay radios.