Setting up repeater for GMRS radios compared to base station

[AlphaTango15]

Hello , new to the radio world and learning about setting up either a repeater or base station or both for small group of GMRS radio operators in a mountainous area of Va . Interested in suggestions and discussions regarding pros and cons from experienced operators 

AlphaTango15 

73

[marcspaz]

Howdy...  You want to discuss the pro's and con's of what, exactly?  What are you trying to accomplish?

 

Also, a common thread among folks that are new to GMRS is wanting to install a repeater.  There is significant cost and skill required to do it properly and with proper equipment.  I wouldn't go down that path unless you have those skills or pockets deep enough to hire someone who does.

[WRAK968]

Your first goal should be to figure out how far you need to communicate. Is it just across town, or 20 miles away? Will you be using mobiles or portables as a primary radio? Are you talking between houses or to individuals? Finally are you communicating with just family or are you looking to talk with other operators, or use it for emcomms for groups like C.E.R.T.

Some of those questions determin if you need a repeater, or if simplex operations will be sufficient. They also help you decide what equipment you may need to use.

When considering a repeater you have more questions to be answered:
Do I have a way or means to get the repeater operating properly? Do I have a place to store the repeater? Do I have the funds and skill to install, test, and maintain the repeater? What would I need to achieve my goals with a repeater?

I'll be honest, when I started with building a repeater there wasn't any in the local area. (The LEH repeater is still the only repeater in the area as the Tuckerton unit was taken down) My goal was to increase portable range from the house to talk to mobiles across town, and to be able to direct link the repeater to another repeater at a family members house allowing the family to talk as a group. Since then, I have been striving to increase range, purchasing better equipment and getting the antenna up higher. In all the LEH machine had the following costs:

RKR1225: $550

DB duplexer: $325

Feedline: $75

Lightning arrestor: $35

antenna: $175

Antenna mount: $45

Antenna mast: $75

Back-up battery: $75

Pi & RIM: $150

Cabinet: $75

Test equipment: $400 (Includes SWR meter, dummy load, exc)

In total this came out to nearly $2000 to meet my goals, and that doesn't include things like duplexer tuning, programming software (Which I had to buy a dedicated computer for) or the time needed to inspect, diagnose, and repair problems which come up.

[AlphaTango15]

Howdy...  You want to discuss the pro's and con's of what, exactly?  What are you trying to accomplish?

 

Also, a common thread among folks that are new to GMRS is wanting to install a repeater.  There is significant cost and skill required to do it properly and with proper equipment.  I wouldn't go down that path unless you have those skills or pockets deep enough to hire someone who does.

 

Your first goal should be to figure out how far you need to communicate. Is it just across town, or 20 miles away? Will you be using mobiles or portables as a primary radio? Are you talking between houses or to individuals? Finally are you communicating with just family or are you looking to talk with other operators, or use it for emcomms for groups like C.E.R.T.

 

Some of those questions determin if you need a repeater, or if simplex operations will be sufficient. They also help you decide what equipment you may need to use.

 

When considering a repeater you have more questions to be answered:

Do I have a way or means to get the repeater operating properly? Do I have a place to store the repeater? Do I have the funds and skill to install, test, and maintain the repeater? What would I need to achieve my goals with a repeater?

 

I'll be honest, when I started with building a repeater there wasn't any in the local area. (The LEH repeater is still the only repeater in the area as the Tuckerton unit was taken down) My goal was to increase portable range from the house to talk to mobiles across town, and to be able to direct link the repeater to another repeater at a family members house allowing the family to talk as a group. Since then, I have been striving to increase range, purchasing better equipment and getting the antenna up higher. In all the LEH machine had the following costs:

 

RKR1225: $550

DB duplexer: $325

Feedline: $75

Lightning arrestor: $35

antenna: $175

Antenna mount: $45

Antenna mast: $75

Back-up battery: $75

Pi & RIM: $150

Cabinet: $75

Test equipment: $400 (Includes SWR meter, dummy load, exc)

 

In total this came out to nearly $2000 to meet my goals, and that doesn't include things like duplexer tuning, programming software (Which I had to buy a dedicated computer for) or the time needed to inspect, diagnose, and repair problems which come up.

Wow , that's more than I was hoping it would be and yes you made some good points . We are a group of people in a small mountain community trying to set comms for varied emergency situations . We all have GMRS , Btechs and simplex is limited without trekking up to certain higher peaks etc in our area . What are your thoughts on trying to improve with a good base station and antenna system 

[AlphaTango15]

Howdy...  You want to discuss the pro's and con's of what, exactly?  What are you trying to accomplish?

 

Also, a common thread among folks that are new to GMRS is wanting to install a repeater.  There is significant cost and skill required to do it properly and with proper equipment.  I wouldn't go down that path unless you have those skills or pockets deep enough to hire someone who does.

 

Howdy...  You want to discuss the pro's and con's of what, exactly?  What are you trying to accomplish?

 

Also, a common thread among folks that are new to GMRS is wanting to install a repeater.  There is significant cost and skill required to do it properly and with proper equipment.  I wouldn't go down that path unless you have those skills or pockets deep enough to hire someone who does.

Thanks for the input 

[marcspaz]

What are your thoughts on trying to improve with a good base station and antenna system 

 

As I mentioned, elevation is your friend.  Be it a repeater or a simplex radio, the higher the antenna is, the more distance you are going to cover. 

 

As I look at the topo maps, there is a bit of a problem in your area.  You have a lot of terrain deviation in a very sort distance.  From the center of town, due to all the terrain obstructions, you would need a 200 foot tall tower for 5 miles of unobstructed radio path (10 mile radius) sort of.  You are 100% SOL heading west.  You would need the antenna to be a half mile in the air to get over the hills, down into the valley on the west side.

 

Your only real solution would be to actually put a repeater up around 36.930917 -80.626221, running off 100% solar power, with an antenna on a 100 foot mast.  Just a quick look, that would likely cover a 20+ mile radius.  Though I would hike or drive up there with some mobiles or portables and do a ground level test, before I spend any money. A 100 foot tower that can take 90+ mph winds will cost you $13,000+, not including installation.

[AlphaTango15]

What is any ones take on a good base station and antenna system to improve comms between simplex users in our group ?

[AlphaTango15]

As I mentioned, elevation is your friend.  Be it a repeater or a simplex radio, the higher the antenna is, the more distance you are going to cover. 

 

As I look at the topo maps, there is a bit of a problem in your area.  You have a lot of terrain deviation in a very sort distance.  From the center of town, due to all the terrain obstructions, you would need a 200 foot tall tower for 5 miles of unobstructed radio path (10 mile radius) sort of.  You are 100% SOL heading west.  You would need the antenna to be a half mile in the air to get over the hills, down into the valley on the west side.

 

Your only real solution would be to actually put a repeater up around 36.930917 -80.626221, running off 100% solar power, with an antenna on a 100 foot mast.  Just a quick look, that would likely cover a 20+ mile radius.  Though I would hike or drive up there with some mobiles or portables and do a ground level test, before I spend any money. A 100 foot tower that can take 90+ mph winds will cost you $13,000+, not including installation.

[AlphaTango15]

 

As I mentioned, elevation is your friend.  Be it a repeater or a simplex radio, the higher the antenna is, the more distance you are going to cover. 

 

As I look at the topo maps, there is a bit of a problem in your area.  You have a lot of terrain deviation in a very sort distance.  From the center of town, due to all the terrain obstructions, you would need a 200 foot tall tower for 5 miles of unobstructed radio path (10 mile radius) sort of.  You are 100% SOL heading west.  You would need the antenna to be a half mile in the air to get over the hills, down into the valley on the west side.

 

Your only real solution would be to actually put a repeater up around 36.930917 -80.626221, running off 100% solar power, with an antenna on a 100 foot mast.  Just a quick look, that would likely cover a 20+ mile radius.  Though I would hike or drive up there with some mobiles or portables and do a ground level test, before I spend any money. A 100 foot tower that can take 90+ mph winds will cost you $13,000+, not including installation.

 

[AlphaTango15]

When we did some ground test off of ridges in our area we got clear comms well over 15 - 20 minutes driving distance ; I'm guessing about 7-10 miles , that was from NW towards SW mostly directional and some clear comms from home base to NNW areas 

[marcspaz]

When we did some ground test off of ridges in our area we got clear comms well over 15 - 20 minutes driving distance ; I'm guessing about 7-10 miles , that was from NW towards SW mostly directional and some clear comms from home base to NNW areas 

 

That's great to hear!  That is exactly the type of first step I would take.

 

For what its worth, if a 10 or 20 foot pole mast will do the trick for everywhere you want to cover from a ridge line, a 100ah battery and a complete 120 watt solar system will cost about $550.  If you can save the money on a tower and get permission for land use, you may be able to get coverage for around $3500-$4000 and run the system automatic/remote indefinitely.

 

Good luck.  I wasn't too optimistic at first, but I am getting excite and rooting for you!

[berkinet]

... a100ah battery and a complete 120 watt solar system will cost about $550. If you can save the money on a tower and get permission for land use, you may be able to get coverage for around $3500-$4000 and run the system automatic/remote indefinitely. ...

I would agree on that price estimate as a worst case estimate. However, you might be able to get the cost down by quite a bit depending on:

- Whether you have local people with radio skills and experience.

- You use used commercial (Part90) equipment.

- Electricity is available at a good site location.

 

If you do have reliable commercial power available, I would suggest avoiding solar and investing in extra battery capacity instead.

 

On the other hand. You will need some safe, protected place to install the equipment. If nothing is already available (cabin, shack, etc.) you will need to budget for something. A solid weatherproof toolbox might be a good start.

 

All-in-all, I’d say you need to consider the best combination of coverage and facilities together when looking for your site. For example, a location with power and shelter, but a bit less coverage, might be the best option. So, one more thing to do before you drive/climb up that ridge is to identify the absolute minimal coverage area your project will require. And, keep in mind: perfect is the enemy of good.

[Lscott]

 

As I look at the topo maps, there is a bit of a problem in your area. 

What source are you using for the topo maps to get the elevation data?

[tweiss3]

USGS: https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#4/39.98/-99.93

[marcspaz]

What source are you using for the topo maps to get the elevation data?

 

I have a business account with Esri to use ArcGIS.  About $4k a year, but they will even create custom maps for us, which is awesome.

[Lscott]

I have a business account with Esri to use ArcGIS.  About $4k a year, but they will even create custom maps for us, which is awesome.

That’s a wee bit outside of my threshold of financial pain. I guess I’ll have to do some more poking around on the USGS site and see if there is anything remotely like the service you have.

[tweiss3]

That’s a wee bit outside of my threshold of financial pain. I guess I’ll have to do some more poking around on the USGS site and see if there is anything remotely like the service you have.

 

Does your county have a GIS system in place? USGS will get you in the ball park for free, but if your county has a GIS system, you can make your map with county flown topo. Either will work without actually having your area surveyed. I do an incredible amount of drainage design with county information.

[berkinet]

There are several ways to get elevation information from Google Maps. At the simplest you can just turn on terrain mapping with elevations and you get something like a topo map. But there are other schemes that will give you the elevation from any arbitrary point on the map. Just google something like: get elevation from google map

 

I would have posted a couple of direct links but I’m on my phone and not the desktop so, I’ll let you do the work.

[Lscott]

USGS: https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/topoview/viewer/#4/39.98/-99.93

Thanks. I’ll have to look at that. I’ve got a friend who is looking for a cheap tower to put up. Something like an old TV type with a multi-band stick antenna. It would good to know what his likely range will look like based on the surrounding terrain.

[Lscott]

Does your county have a GIS system in place? USGS will get you in the ball park for free, but if your county has a GIS system, you can make your map with county flown topo. Either will work without actually having your area surveyed. I do an incredible amount of drainage design with county information.

I’m not sure. The few minutes I poked around on the USGS site all I found were the small 7.5x7.5 topo maps that looked like a postage stamps scattered across the Detroit Metro area. I need to spent a bit more time looking around there to see if there is something that covers several counties that can be downloaded.

[gortex2]

I may of missed this but what area in VA are you talking. I have multiple GMRS repeaters sitting looking for locations. You can PM me for details if your interested.

[Lscott]

I have a business account with Esri to use ArcGIS.  About $4k a year, but they will even create custom maps for us, which is awesome.

Have you use this software before?

 

http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/?Welcome...

[marcspaz]

I may of missed this but what area in VA are you talking. I have multiple GMRS repeaters sitting looking for locations. You can PM me for details if your interested.

 

He is in the south west corner of the state, near the NC/VA line, west of Martinsville.

 

 

 

Have you use this software before?

 

http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/?Welcome...

I don't recognize the URL and the page won't load o my PC or phone. So, I can't really say for sure.

[Lscott]

I don't recognize the URL and the page won't load o my PC or phone. So, I can't really say for sure.

You might want to try it again. The website is in the Netherlands. I tried earlier today, no luck. Tried again just a few minutes ago and now it seems to be working. All I did was click on the link in the post using Firefox on my laptop.

 

http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/?Welcome...

[marcspaz]

You might want to try it again. The website is in the Netherlands. I tried earlier today, no luck. Tried again just a few minutes ago and now it seems to be working. All I did was click on the link in the post using Firefox on my laptop.

 

http://radiomobile.pe1mew.nl/?Welcome...

Still a no go for me. Not sure why. I didnt realize the URL was outside the US. Most of my contracts are US DOD and Federal Law Enforcement. We're not allowed to use foreign resources (with extremely limited exceptions). Likely I never have.