Im new, need help w set up!

[WRUB458]

Hi everyone! I have call sign and license! Situation. I have to stay in contact w family less than 10 miles down road urban area. I cannot use cell phones at work so I bought wouxun kg-905g radios w nagoya 771g and wanting to add home base for added range. Thinking of wouxun kg 1000 or would midland work w it?

[SteveShannon]

You don’t say which model, but the Midland might work nearly as well as the Wouxun .  It’s probably going to depend more on the base antenna and terrain and vegetation in those ten miles.  Have you tried two handheld radios? Is there a repeater that you can use?

[WRUB458]

Hi there and thanks for responding. I was looking at like the midland mxt500 or so vs the wouxun. I was wondering if the radios I have would work with the midland mxt500 if I wanted that one. I have to check on repeaters as I’m new to this. And, what base antenna would be recommended?

[SteveShannon]

25 minutes ago, WRUB458 said:

Hi there and thanks for responding. I was looking at like the midland mxt500 or so vs the wouxun. I was wondering if the radios I have would work with the midland mxt500 if I wanted that one. I have to check on repeaters as I’m new to this. And, what base antenna would be recommended?

Yes, both the Midland Mxt500 or the Wouxun KG1000 will work just fine with the KG905.  Whether they can communicate over that distance is subject to a lot of different variables, like I mentioned earlier.

Because I have no personal experience with base station antennas I cannot make a recommendation, but there are lots of threads here that discuss base station antennas.

It sounds like you have two or more KG905 radios.  If that’s true, have you tried them talking to each other to see what kind of range you get?  

Then, do some research to see what might exist for repeaters.  I’ll post this and then go look at the repeater listing for San Antonio.  Repeaters are usually set atop a hill or elsewhere with their antennas raised up where they can be “seen” from a wide area.  If there’s a repeater in your area that you can reach from your workplace and from your home, that would possibly allow you to communicate without needing a base station or base station antenna.  Of course that doesn’t mean you should not get a base station, but anything that makes communicating more reliable is a good thing.

I’ll add whatever I find about repeaters here: It appears there’s a vibrant community of repeaters (at least five different repeaters) in your area.  Here’s a website the community maintains: http://1510.node.gmrslive.com/supermon/

Best wishes as you learn about this.  

[WRUB458]

Thank you once again. I’ll do testing here with the radios for distance and repeater existence and visibility. I will post my findings. Much appreciated.

[KAF6045]

8 hours ago, WRUB458 said:

Hi everyone! I have call sign and license! Situation. I have to stay in contact w family less than 10 miles down road urban area. I cannot use cell phones at work so I bought wouxun kg-905g radios w nagoya 771g and wanting to add home base for added range. Thinking of wouxun kg 1000 or would midland work w it?

Color me perplexed... But if your work site prohibits cell phones (which ARE a type of RADIO), why would they permit you carry/use a GMRS radio (which is probably sending out even MORE power into the environment than any cell phone -- cell phones automatically reduce power based upon the signal strength they receive from the tower, and tend to operate at less than 1W).

If you meant that there is just no cell phone coverage at the work site, that is a different matter... Not a "cannot use" description which (to me, having spent 26 years in a black program where we couldn't even bring a cell phone [or calculator with memory] into the building) implies an externally imposed restriction. In contrast "cell phones don't work" implies a physical constraint in the environment.

ANY GMRS radio will "work with" any other GMRS radio -- though the high power units (mobiles/bases may not include channels "8"-"14" which are limited to 0.5W ERP NFM (Note, the ERP limit basically means a true base won't have them regardless of what it has for Low Power; any gain antenna would result in exceeding the ERP limit). BASE stations are NOT permitted to use repeaters.

If you haven't yet, I strongly recommend you study https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E

Quote

§ 95.1763 GMRS channels.

The GMRS is allotted 30 channels - 16 main channels and 14 interstitial channels. GMRS stations may transmit on any of the channels as indicated below.

(a) 462 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz.

(b) 462 MHz interstitial channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable and base stations may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5625, 462.5875, 462.6125, 462.6375, 462.6625, 462.6875, and 462.7125 MHz.

(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

(d) 467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5625, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.

Quote

§ 95.1767 GMRS transmitting power limits.

This section contains transmitting power limits for GMRS stations. The maximum transmitting power depends on which channels are being used and the type of station.

(a) 462/467 MHz main channels. The limits in this paragraph apply to stations transmitting on any of the 462 MHz main channels or any of the 467 MHz main channels. Each GMRS transmitter type must be capable of operating within the allowable power range. GMRS licensees are responsible for ensuring that their GMRS stations operate in compliance with these limits.

(1) The transmitter output power of mobile, repeater and base stations must not exceed 50 Watts.

(2) The transmitter output power of fixed stations must not exceed 15 Watts.

(b) 462 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of mobile, hand-held portable and base stations transmitting on the 462 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 5 Watts.

(c) 467 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS transmitter type capable of transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not exceed 0.5 Watt.

Unfortunately, there are hand-helds that CAN exceed the ERP for the interstitial channels -- by connecting a gain antenna to the unit; but seems to be "ignored" by FCC certification (perhaps on the basis that most will just be using highly inefficient rubber ducks).

Also note that true BASE stations are NOT allowed to use repeaters! (In ancient days, base stations weren't even permitted to talk to other base stations!), They are simplex only!

In the 2017 reorganization of GMRS and FRS, they essentially set down a standard for channel numbering.

"1"-"7" are the 462MHz interstitials
"8"-"14" are the 467MHz interstitials
"15"-"22" are the 462MHz main channels (simplex)
"23"-"30" (alternatively "RP15"-"RP22", or variants thereof with an "R") are repeater (duplex) channels -- the radio transmits on 467MHz and receives on 462MHz (the repeater swaps that -- listening on 467 and transmitting on 462).

 

However

Putting up a 50W base likely wouldn't help your situtation -- if the (nominal) 5W hand-helds can't reach that distance, a base with minimal antenna system isn't going to help. The antenna is the key for distance -- using a 6dB (or even more, a 9dB) gain antenna, mounted as high is feasible (take into account zoning restrictions -- in my town AMATEUR antennas may be mounted at 70 feet, but ALL OTHER antennas are limited to 35 feet; about the height of standard "telephone"/power poles. [antenna ratings are somewhat confusing as to whether they are in dBi or dBd (isotropic -- an imaginary point source radiating in a perfect sphere vs dipole -- a half-wave wire radiating in a doughnut shape. A 6dBi would be about 3dBd. 3dBd would have an ERP about twice that of a simple dipole antenna; 5W into a 3dBd antenna would seem like 10W into a pure dipole... And would receive similarly).

Once you have the antenna reliably receiving the hand-held (at 5W) you should be able to use it with a 5-10W rig to reach the remote hand-held.

 

[OffRoaderX]

13 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

But if your work site prohibits cell phones (which ARE a type of RADIO), why would they permit you carry/use a GMRS radio

In my last job cell phones were prohibited because virtually all cellphones were also cameras and audio recorders..  There was no prohibition on radios.

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

Color me perplexed... But if your work site prohibits cell phones (which ARE a type of RADIO), why would they permit you carry/use a GMRS radio (which is probably sending out even MORE power into the environment than any cell phone -- cell phones automatically reduce power based upon the signal strength they receive from the tower, and tend to operate at less than 1W).

If you meant that there is just no cell phone coverage at the work site, that is a different matter... Not a "cannot use" description which (to me, having spent 26 years in a black program where we couldn't even bring a cell phone [or calculator with memory] into the building) implies an externally imposed restriction. In contrast "cell phones don't work" implies a physical constraint in the environment.

ANY GMRS radio will "work with" any other GMRS radio -- though the high power units (mobiles/bases may not include channels "8"-"14" which are limited to 0.5W ERP NFM (Note, the ERP limit basically means a true base won't have them regardless of what it has for Low Power; any gain antenna would result in exceeding the ERP limit). BASE stations are NOT permitted to use repeaters.

If you haven't yet, I strongly recommend you study https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E

Unfortunately, there are hand-helds that CAN exceed the ERP for the interstitial channels -- by connecting a gain antenna to the unit; but seems to be "ignored" by FCC certification (perhaps on the basis that most will just be using highly inefficient rubber ducks).

Also note that true BASE stations are NOT allowed to use repeaters! (In ancient days, base stations weren't even permitted to talk to other base stations!), They are simplex only!

In the 2017 reorganization of GMRS and FRS, they essentially set down a standard for channel numbering.

"1"-"7" are the 462MHz interstitials
"8"-"14" are the 467MHz interstitials
"15"-"22" are the 462MHz main channels (simplex)
"23"-"30" (alternatively "RP15"-"RP22", or variants thereof with an "R") are repeater (duplex) channels -- the radio transmits on 467MHz and receives on 462MHz (the repeater swaps that -- listening on 467 and transmitting on 462).

 

However

Putting up a 50W base likely wouldn't help your situtation -- if the (nominal) 5W hand-helds can't reach that distance, a base with minimal antenna system isn't going to help. The antenna is the key for distance -- using a 6dB (or even more, a 9dB) gain antenna, mounted as high is feasible (take into account zoning restrictions -- in my town AMATEUR antennas may be mounted at 70 feet, but ALL OTHER antennas are limited to 35 feet; about the height of standard "telephone"/power poles. [antenna ratings are somewhat confusing as to whether they are in dBi or dBd (isotropic -- an imaginary point source radiating in a perfect sphere vs dipole -- a half-wave wire radiating in a doughnut shape. A 6dBi would be about 3dBd. 3dBd would have an ERP about twice that of a simple dipole antenna; 5W into a 3dBd antenna would seem like 10W into a pure dipole... And would receive similarly).

Once you have the antenna reliably receiving the hand-held (at 5W) you should be able to use it with a 5-10W rig to reach the remote hand-held.

 

An overly technical wandering data dump like this does nothing to help the guy.
Also, some jobs prohibit cell phones in order to minimize internet surfing, prevent photography, or control wifi devices. Although I’m curious what the situation is, the OP has no obligation to explain the reasons to me or you. 

[WRUB458]

I cannot use wifi or any device w Bluetooth capabilities. Thank you Shannon! However, I do like as much info as possible that I can absorb even though I’m new to it all. With that said, base can be a less powered unit but with a 6db or 9db antenna to make stronger?…which one recommended….better yet ….what do you suggest for base? I’m leaning toward Wouxun!

[OffRoaderX]

3 hours ago, Sshannon said:

An overly technical wandering data dump like this does nothing to help the guy

But it sure was impressive! Weren't you impressed by how smart he thinks he made himself look? I know I sure am!  Too bad we can't "pin" replies like this to the top of the list for everyone to enjoy.

...Weird that he has a ham-radio callsign for his user-name... Just sayin...

[KAF6045]

53 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

But it sure was impressive! Weren't you impressed by how smart he thinks he made himself look? I know I sure am!  Too bad we can't "pin" replies like this to the top of the list for everyone to enjoy.

...Weird that he has a ham-radio callsign for his user-name... Just sayin...

If that is referring to me... KAF6045 IS a GMRS call sign... Back in the 90s that (3alpha x 4digit) WAS the call sign format being issued by the FCC (same format as the CB calls of the 70s -- when I held KRO3607, if memory serves).

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=203948

My amateur call is AF6VN Amateur-Extra. There are, to my knowledge NO amateur callsigns that end in digits. They use one digit in the middle to identify which callsign zone the call was originally issued in (it used to be when one moved to a different zone, they had to get a new callsign; FCC dropped that requirement some decades ago, so my "6"/California is a "lie", I'm now living in "8" zone.

[axorlov]

2 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

But it sure was impressive! Weren't you impressed by how smart he thinks he made himself look? I know I sure am!  Too bad we can't "pin" replies like this to the top of the list for everyone to enjoy.

...Weird that he has a ham-radio callsign for his user-name... Just sayin...

I'm curious, if there is a single mirror in the house of this youtube princess. Not that I need to know...

[axorlov]

14 hours ago, WRUB458 said:

Hi everyone! I have call sign and license! Situation. I have to stay in contact w family less than 10 miles down road urban area. I cannot use cell phones at work so I bought wouxun kg-905g radios w nagoya 771g and wanting to add home base for added range. Thinking of wouxun kg 1000 or would midland work w it?

10 miles is not really far, but can be easy or difficult, depending on terrain. That was already pointed out by others. You very likely will need an elevated antenna on one side. In your house with your family, likely. The higher antenna is, the better.

[TXFitz]

6 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

 BASE stations are NOT permitted to use repeaters.

 

Is this accurate?  Why would a base station at my house using a mobile radio not be allowed to use a repeater?

[WRUB458]

Axorlov, any suggestions of a great 6db antenna to use with Wouxun kg 1000?

[OffRoaderX]

2 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

If that is referring to me... KAF6045 IS a GMRS call sign... Back in the 90s that (3alpha x 4digit) WAS the call sign format being issued by the FCC (same format as the CB calls of the 70s -- when I held KRO3607, if memory serves).

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=203948

My amateur call is AF6VN Amateur-Extra. There are, to my knowledge NO amateur callsigns that end in digits. They use one digit in the middle to identify which callsign zone the call was originally issued in (it used to be when one moved to a different zone, they had to get a new callsign; FCC dropped that requirement some decades ago, so my "6"/California is a "lie", I'm now living in "8" zone.

Oh, trust me, I get it.

[axorlov]

1 hour ago, WRUB458 said:

Axorlov, any suggestions of a great 6db antenna to use with Wouxun kg 1000?

If I was you, I'd start cheap, experimenting on the way. I had a years of good performance of Browning BR-6140 on 20' mast over single-story house (about 30' height over the ground). My setup also included 40' of LMR-400 and 40W radio, Kenwood TK-880H. I live in a center of a mostly flat valley circled by the mountains, and this setup allowed me to talk reliably to another mobile TK-880H in the car, and less reliably (local dip, buildings, etc) to handheld. The max distance on a flat area was 8 miles or so. Of course, when you start to climb up on the valley rim, you'd have crystal clear communication with handheld as well. BR-6140 is a unity gain, not 6dB.

I now have Diamond X50-NA (at 27' over the ground), which is a ham antenna, and have worse SWR than BR-6140 on GMRS frequencies. It works about the same, though. Diamond X50 is a unity gain too.

The repeaters is always a good option, because you would not need to invest on base station, antenna, etc. However, repeater it is somebody else's radio, not controlled by you.

[wrci350]

7 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Also note that true BASE stations are NOT allowed to use repeaters! (In ancient days, base stations weren't even permitted to talk to other base stations!), They are simplex only!

OK that's totally false.  Care to show us where in 95E it says that?  Oh wait, it doesn't.

What it DOES say is this (in 95.1763):

(b) 462 MHz interstitial channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable and base stations may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5625, 462.5875, 462.6125, 462.6375, 462.6625, 462.6875, and 462.7125 MHz.

(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

And in 95.303:

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

A GMRS "BASE" station (which is almost certainly a mobile radio connected to a power supply and an external antenna) is a control station.

[OffRoaderX]

3 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

OK that's totally false.  Care to show us where in 95E it says that?  Oh wait, it doesn't.

I too, am awaiting that.

[axorlov]

Fixed stations are only allowed to talk only to other fixed stations. Base station, which is different from fixed station, can talk to repeaters. I'm not going to dig up the 95.<paragraph>, because we had been though this before many times.

[wrci350]

1 minute ago, axorlov said:

Fixed stations are only allowed to talk only to other fixed stations. Base station can talk to repeaters. I'm not going to dig up the 95.<paragraph>, because we had been though this before many times.

Yup.  And fixed station <> base station.  

[KAF6045]

12 hours ago, wrci350 said:

Control station. A station at a fixed location that communicates with mobile stations and other control stations through repeater stations, and may also be used to control the operation of repeater stations.

A GMRS "BASE" station (which is almost certainly a mobile radio connected to a power supply and an external antenna) is a control station.

There is a difference between transmitting VIA the repeater, and controlling the repeater (remote enable/disable if it is misbehaving, etc.). A control station allows one to sit at home rather than have to be in the repeater-shack monitoring the use and operation of the repeaterl  With DTMF signalling, the repeater controller (circuit, not operator) could accept commands through the primary repeater input frequency, and these commands could tell the controller to stop transmitting/repeating until commanded otherwise (useful if someone is abusing the repeater or is unlicensed). DTMF signals should not be propagated to the output -- mainly to keep the control commands from being captured by unauthorized persons.

Quote

95.343 Station operator responsibility and requirements.

Each Personal Radio Services station must have an operator whenever the station is transmitting. The operator of a Personal Radio Services station is responsible for proper operation of the station in compliance with all applicable rules in this part.

(a) Unless the station is operating under automatic control, the operator of a Personal Radio Services station must be located at a control point and monitoring communications while the station is transmitting.

The operator is NOT just anyone with an HT pressing PTT. That person is in control of their HT, but not of the repeater.

Just an aside, fixed stations -- different from base stations -- are limited to 15W power.

Quote

§ 95.1767 GMRS transmitting power limits.

This section contains transmitting power limits for GMRS stations. The maximum transmitting power depends on which channels are being used and the type of station.

(a) 462/467 MHz main channels. The limits in this paragraph apply to stations transmitting on any of the 462 MHz main channels or any of the 467 MHz main channels. Each GMRS transmitter type must be capable of operating within the allowable power range. GMRS licensees are responsible for ensuring that their GMRS stations operate in compliance with these limits.

(1) The transmitter output power of mobile, repeater and base stations must not exceed 50 Watts.

(2) The transmitter output power of fixed stations must not exceed 15 Watts.

Some other definitions from in subpart A):

Quote

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations.

Mobile station. A station, intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified locations, that communicates directly with base stations and other mobile stations, and with control stations and other mobile stations through repeater stations.

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only.

Repeater station. A station in a fixed location used to extend the communications range of mobile stations, hand-held portable units and control stations by receiving their signals on one channel (the input channel) and simultaneously retransmitting these signals on another channel (the output channel), typically with higher transmitting power from a favorable antenna location (typically high above the surrounding terrain).

There is no mention of a base station "communicating" through a repeater -- only direct (simplex). Also note that there is no mention of a mobile communicating with a base through a repeater.

[SteveShannon]

When you use a transceiver at a fixed location to communicate to a mobile radio through a repeater, it is functioning as a control station. Please note that it “May also” be used to control the repeater.  It’s not a requirement that a control station be able to fully control every function of the repeater and communicating through a repeater could be considered a level of control because you are causing the repeater to relay your transmissions.

If you use that same transceiver to communicate directly to a mobile radio, it is functioning as a base station.

The difference is in usage.  Referring to a radio as a base station doesn’t prohibit it from being used to communicate through a repeater. 

[WRUB458]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

When you use a transceiver at a fixed location to communicate to a mobile radio through a repeater, it is functioning as a control station. Please note that it “May also” be used to control the repeater.  It’s not a requirement that a control station be able to fully control every function of the repeater and communicating through a repeater could be considered a level of control because you are causing the repeater to relay your transmissions.

If you use that same transceiver to communicate directly to a mobile radio, it is functioning as a base station.

The difference is in usage.  Referring to a radio as a base station doesn’t prohibit it from being used to communicate through a repeater. 

“If you use that same transceiver to communicate directly to a mobile radio, it is functioning as a base station.

The difference is in usage.  Referring to a radio as a base station doesn’t prohibit it from being used to communicate through a repeater.” 
 

You make things clearer for me and I appreciate that! Thank you 

[WRUB458]

Do you guys know if any other decent stores to buy these mobile radios from besides buy two way radios and mygmrs?