Looking for a repeater.

[WRUS537]

I am looking for a repeater, just something to use around my area so we do not tie up the "public" repeater.

[SteveShannon]

43 minutes ago, WRUS537 said:

I am looking for a repeater, just something to use around my area so we do not tie up the "public" repeater.

It might help if you describe your area, such as terrain, opportunity for an antenna, and coverage wanted.  Is it something a Retevis RT-97 would work well for or do you need a more professional repeater?

[WRUS537]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It might help if you describe your area, such as terrain, opportunity for an antenna, and coverage wanted.  Is it something a Retevis RT-97 would work well for or do you need a more professional repeater?

It pretty flat but trees. I have a 25ft antenna, looking for about 5 miles. My base reaches the portables, but I would like the portables to reach each other with out the base relaying the messages. I looked at the Retevis rt97, If I read it right it will not do tones.

[SteveShannon]

4 minutes ago, WRUS537 said:

It pretty flat but trees. I have a 25ft antenna, looking for about 5 miles. My base reaches the portables, but I would like the portables to reach each other with out the base relaying the messages. I looked at the Retevis rt97, If I read it right it will not do tones.

Do you mean the RT97 won’t do tones for tone squelch, like CTCSS or DCS?  It does both.

Here’s the manual: https://www.retevis.com/Download/mannual/RT97_English_Manual.pdf

The RT97 cannot easily be set up to automatically send a call sign, either in voice or Morse code.  The RT97s has a port that might support it though.

[WRUS537]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Do you mean the RT97 won’t do tones for tone squelch, like CTCSS or DCS?  It does both.

Here’s the manual: https://www.retevis.com/Download/mannual/RT97_English_Manual.pdf

The RT97 cannot easily be set up to automatically send a call sign, either in voice or Morse code.  The RT97s has a port that might support it though.

Ok, I thought it was saying no tone, From what I have read I do not think I need it to send a call sign if it is private. So that might work.

[KAF6045]

1 hour ago, WRUS537 said:

Ok, I thought it was saying no tone, From what I have read I do not think I need it to send a call sign if it is private. So that might work.

If ALL the users are operating using YOUR call sign (which essentially means all users fall into the "immediate family" category), and are IDing using your call sign, then a private repeater doesn't need its own ID system. When you ID your transmission, you also ID the repeater.

If any users are operating under their own call sign, you will need a repeater specific ID system; those other user's ID do NOT ID the repeater licensee, and hence lead to confusion as to what call sign/license is responsible for it.

Allowing other licensees to use the repeater means it is not a "private" repeater, but what the Amateur community would call a "closed" repeater (usable by a selected list of users).

[SteveShannon]

Simply put, that can be complied with manually by simply identifying the repeater at the end of a conversation or every fifteen minutes during long conversations. 

[WRUS537]

36 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Simply put, that can be complied with manually by simply identifying the repeater at the end of a conversation or every fifteen minutes during long conversations. 

 

59 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

If ALL the users are operating using YOUR call sign (which essentially means all users fall into the "immediate family" category), and are IDing using your call sign, then a private repeater doesn't need its own ID system. When you ID your transmission, you also ID the repeater.

If any users are operating under their own call sign, you will need a repeater specific ID system; those other user's ID do NOT ID the repeater licensee, and hence lead to confusion as to what call sign/license is responsible for it.

Allowing other licensees to use the repeater means it is not a "private" repeater, but what the Amateur community would call a "closed" repeater (usable by a selected list of users).

It would be just the family under my call sign

[WRKC935]

If it's JUST your family then you are legal as long as they are identifying.

But it has to be private use, meaning your family is the ONLY users on the repeater. 

If ANYONE not covered by your license is on the air, then the repeater needs to ID in some manner.

 

[Photoman5k]

4 hours ago, WRUS537 said:

Ok, I thought it was saying no tone, From what I have read I do not think I need it to send a call sign if it is private. So that might work.

Public or private it doesn't need to send a callsign. The repeater is not required to ID.

[SteveShannon]

22 minutes ago, Photoman5k said:

Public or private it doesn't need to send a callsign. The repeater is not required to ID.

That’s simply incorrect.  Here’s the regulation:

§ 95.1751  GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

(a) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to  transmit station identification if:

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the  individual license under which it operates; and,

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

[Photoman5k]

It's been discussed way more times then i can count on this site alone and the consensus is that they do not have to ID. If they did have to ID don't you think a crapload of repeater owners would have already been ticketed/fined/ whatever by the FCC for not IDing? And we would have heard about it from them? I think so. Your interpretation of those regs is different than other peoples interpretations of those regs. I trust the explanation/interpretation given by someone else who runs multiple repeaters that are part of this very linked system as it would be in his best interest to have a very good understanding of the issue or not.

[Photoman5k]

42 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

That’s simply incorrect.  Here’s the regulation:

§ 95.1751  GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

(a) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to  transmit station identification if:

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the  individual license under which it operates; and,

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

See that very last line? re-read it. As long as the person using the station(repeater) properly IDs there is no requirement for the repeater to ID. Thank you have a nice day.

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, Photoman5k said:

See that very last line? re-read it. As long as the person using the station(repeater) properly IDs there is no requirement for the repeater to ID. Thank you have a nice day.

That last line (condition 2) is logically and legally “anded” to condition 1. Both must be true in order to avoid transmitting the ID of the repeater.

So, the only regulatory compliant way to not ID the repeater is if the only people using it are covered by the license of the repeater owner and they are all correctly identifying themselves using the repeater owner’s ID, which would be the same as the station ID of the repeater. 

[Photoman5k]

You show me where the FCC took action against a GMRS repeater owner for not IDing and I'll believe your interpretation of this is correct. Untill then I'll go with the interpretation of the many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many repeater owners/operators who don't ID their repeaters and have never had action taken against them by the FCC. 

[SteveShannon]

I agree that the FCC probably isn’t interested in taking action against repeater owners who bother nobody. It’s like driving 57 in a 55 zone. It’s one of those rules that would be nearly impossible to prosecute and honestly not worth their time unless something outrageous is going on, in which case it’ll be just another charge, but I know how to read regulations  and that “and” makes a difference. 
 

 

[KAF6045]

5 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I agree that the FCC probably isn’t interested in taking action against repeater owners who bother nobody. It’s like driving 57 in a 55 zone. It’s one of those rules that would be nearly impossible to prosecute and honestly not worth their time unless something outrageous is going on, in which case it’ll be just another charge, but I know how to read regulations  and that “and” makes a difference.

There is also the minor problem that the FCC would have to be monitoring both the input and output of the repeater to determine if it 1) IS a repeater (ie: traffic going in on 467.xxx, and coming back on 462.xxx), 2) if it is open or private (if multiple calls ID on the 467.xxx, or all users have the same call). After all, users might be using simplex and just happen to also have the same tones as the repeater is using.

Unlike Amateur, and pretty much all land-mobile/business systems, GMRS operates both simplex and repeaters ON THE SAME FREQUENCIES. Land-mobile is mostly a repeater/dispatch and remote/mobile stations -- remote to remote (police car-to-car, for example -- used to free up the dispatch/repeater)  is typically a dedicated frequency. Amateur has "band plans" which are negotiated by the ARRL and Amateur groups (not FCC) to allocate segments of the Amateur bands solely to repeater usage, while other segments are for simplex.

 

Nonetheless, for subparagraph (c) to apply, BOTH (c)(1) AND (c)(2) must be TRUE. It would be best to follow that criteria.

While there have been no reported prosecutions (well, for the FCC: Notice of Apparent Liability with associated fines), there is always that "first time" -- just as stringent police office might pull over and ticket someone doing 57 in a 55 zone (though they tend to be more strict in 25 and/or 35mph "school zones", allowing NO excess speed margin).