Tidradio TD-H3 "Stun" and "Kill" functions?

[WSAA635]

I didn't know I also got a Phaser function with the radio,LOL. Really though, what do "kill" and "stun" do?

[SteveShannon]

35 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

I didn't know I also got a Phaser function with the radio,LOL. Really though, what do "kill" and "stun" do?

They do different things for different brands of radios. Typically the functions must be enabled in order to work. 
Both are holdovers from commercial radios. 
These functions allow someone who knows the code for your radio to send either a stun or kill message. That can be helpful for a company that loses one of their radios.
When your radio receives a stun message it usually is disabled from transmitting until it receives another stun message.
When it receives a kill message it usually stops working altogether and must be returned to the shop that configured it to be resurrected. 

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, WSAA635 said:

So I guess I used the wrong term when I said "scramble". It's actually Simple Voice Inversion which is legal from all accounts that I've read and watched.  It's not hard to break if you know how but most folks won't know how so what they hear sounds like they're hearing Single Side Band.  This could be useful if you're talking to someone and giving your location or a meeting place so that others won't know where you're going. 

No, you used the correct term. For many years, the common method of scrambling has been voice inversion. 

[WRUU653]

8 hours ago, WSAA635 said:

So I guess I used the wrong term when I said "scramble". It's actually Simple Voice Inversion which is legal from all accounts that I've read and watched.  It's not hard to break if you know how but most folks won't know how so what they hear sounds like they're hearing Single Side Band.  This could be useful if you're talking to someone and giving your location or a meeting place so that others won't know where you're going. 

If a radio can’t be certified part 95 that has voice scrambling I don’t see how you can conclude it’s okay to use it. I would be interested in your “accounts read and watched” supporting this idea. Perhaps something has changed I am unaware of?

Here’s what I found.

FCC definition.

Voice obscuring feature. A feature incorporated into a Personal Radio Service telephony transmitter that alters the sound of the user's voice in such a way that the communications are intended to be understandable only to individuals using a similar unit that reverses the process on the receiving end, so that the voice again becomes intelligible.

FCC notes on the changes cited by @Sshannon

c) Voice obscuring radios. Effective September 30, 2019, no person shall manufacture, or import, sell or offer for sale any radio that incorporates one or more voice scrambling or other obscuring features where such radio is intended for use in any of the Personal Radio Services that provide for voice (telephony) communications on shared channels (see § 95.359) regardless of whether the Commission has previously certified that radio.

and finally Midland was fined for just such a thing back in 2009. Here is a few quotes from that report.

“the Commission staff publicly interpreted its rules to advise that voice scrambling constitutes coded messaging and, therefore, is not allowed for GMRS devices.”

”Section 95.183(a)(4) of the Rules prohibits GMRS operators from transmitting coded messages and messages with hidden meanings”

Midlands argument that they used voice inversion was not successful. 

from all I have found it would seem the FCC does not condone this. That’s my interpretation anyway  

[WRUU653]

I don't have this radio to check the numbers (if you do) you can check the FCC ID Search and see if it did in fact get certified and for what. It should be located on the radio under where the battery sits. That said if you read through the Midland info I posted above one of their defenses was that some radios had been certified but that didn't seem to matter to the FCC. I guess things slip past the FCC sometimes. 

[WSAA635]

Ahh, interesting. I don't think I'll need those functions. I can see them on a commercial grade radio but I'm not sure why they'd be needed on a consumer grade radio. Anyway, thanks for the info.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WSAA635 said:

Ahh, interesting. I don't think I'll need those functions. I can see them on a commercial grade radio but I'm not sure why they'd be needed on a consumer grade radio. Anyway, thanks for the info.

Some of these radios are derivatives of commercial radios and simply include some of the features that already existed.  Some even include voice scrambling which we are forbidden to use in GMRS.  One of my ham radios (an Alinco, but I believe a derivative of an Anytone DMR radio) even has AES 256, which is pretty strong security, also forbidden for use in a ham radio.  I guess I'm on my honor. 

[WSAA635]

Encryption is a no no on GMRS but the scramble feature is fine from all that I've read. I've watched a few YouTubes that explain the feature and even Randy talked about it and how it made the voice sound like SSB if you don't have de-scramble code set on your receiving radio.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WSAA635 said:

Encryption is a no no on GMRS but the scramble feature is fine from all that I've read. I've watched a few YouTubes that explain the feature and even Randy talked about it and how it made the voice sound like SSB if you don't have de-scramble code set on your receiving radio.

GMRS is subject to the restrictions listed for all the personal radio services. This is the rule that addresses scrambling:

95.381 Voice obscuring features.

A grant of equipment certification will not be issued for any transmitter type that incorporates one or more voice scrambling or other obscuring features for any of the Personal Radio Services that provide for voice (telephony) communications on shared channels (see § 95.359), if the application for such grant is filed on or after December 27, 2017. 

 

[Lscott]

46 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

GMRS is subject to the restrictions listed for all the personal radio services. This is the rule that addresses scrambling:

95.381 Voice obscuring features.

A grant of equipment certification will not be issued for any transmitter type that incorporates one or more voice scrambling or other obscuring features for any of the Personal Radio Services that provide for voice (telephony) communications on shared channels (see § 95.359), if the application for such grant is filed on or after December 27, 2017. 

 

This is getting a bit off topic and into the weeds a bit. But the rule specifically mentions equipment certification. Anything after the cutoff date will not get certified if it has any kind of voice obscuring features. However it’s silent about equipment that was certified before that date and no mention the feature must not be used in that case. So, it’s very possible voice scrambling in OK, BUT only on radios certified before Dec 27, 2017.

So, my favorite Kenwood radio, TK-3170, I use for GMRS, which by the way is certified Part 95 in 2004, has analog voice scrambling so it could be legal to use that feature. Interesting thought.

[WSAA635]

So I guess I used the wrong term when I said "scramble". It's actually Simple Voice Inversion which is legal from all accounts that I've read and watched.  It's not hard to break if you know how but most folks won't know how so what they hear sounds like they're hearing Single Side Band.  This could be useful if you're talking to someone and giving your location or a meeting place so that others won't know where you're going. 

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

If a radio can’t be certified part 95 that has voice scrambling I don’t see how you can conclude it’s okay to use it. I would be interested in your “accounts read and watched” supporting this idea. Perhaps something has changed I am unaware of?

Here’s what I found.

FCC definition.

Voice obscuring feature. A feature incorporated into a Personal Radio Service telephony transmitter that alters the sound of the user's voice in such a way that the communications are intended to be understandable only to individuals using a similar unit that reverses the process on the receiving end, so that the voice again becomes intelligible.

FCC notes on the changes cited by @Sshannon

c) Voice obscuring radios. Effective September 30, 2019, no person shall manufacture, or import, sell or offer for sale any radio that incorporates one or more voice scrambling or other obscuring features where such radio is intended for use in any of the Personal Radio Services that provide for voice (telephony) communications on shared channels (see § 95.359) regardless of whether the Commission has previously certified that radio.

and finally Midland was fined for just such a thing back in 2009. Here is a few quotes from that report.

“the Commission staff publicly interpreted its rules to advise that voice scrambling constitutes coded messaging and, therefore, is not allowed for GMRS devices.”

”Section 95.183(a)(4) of the Rules prohibits GMRS operators from transmitting coded messages and messages with hidden meanings”

Midlands argument that they used voice inversion was not successful. 

from all I have found it would seem the FCC does not condone this. That’s my interpretation anyway  

Nicely done, Gil! 

[WSAA635]

So this info begs the question "How did the Tidradio TD-H3 get it's FCC Cert.?"  It IS an FCC Certified radio and it has this feature. Did the FCC drop the ball or do they just not really care about that rule or maybe they don't know about it.

[SteveShannon]

39 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

So this info begs the question "How did the Tidradio TD-H3 get it's FCC Cert.?"  It IS an FCC Certified radio and it has this feature. Did the FCC drop the ball or do they just not really care about that rule or maybe they don't know about it.

As the priests always tell me “It’s a mystery.”