Lscott

I never claimed it was. The dPMR service in the EU seems to be working out OK so apparently it's very possible to do, share the spectrum. In fact they have TWO digital voice modes, dPMR and DMR. Further on 11M people have used AM and SSB for years and now FM is added to the mix. I don't see any huge crying over that either. I have to agree with those with how annoying a mode like TDMA, which is how DMR operates, with the machine gun like pulsing. I do know that the TDMA nature of the signal is known to cause false opening of the squelch, when using CTSS, on analog radios. It happens on the CCR tri-bander I have in the office I use as a cheap scanner from time to time. The two modes I mentioned in the paper are FDMA, no pulsing noise. I also am NOT advocating using digital voice on repeaters. I would keep those analog only. Analogue and Digital PMR446 Information Sheet.pdf The-effect-on-dPMR-446-of-the-new-digital-license-v3-2019.pdf

Looks like that's were we should start, get the FCC to enforce the rules. The whole point with enabling digital voice, in some limited manner, on GMRS has nothing to do with experimentation or making it a "Ham Lite" type service. It's more about improving the quality of service. As it exists now the general GMRS user really only "practically" use channels 1-7 and 15-22 due to the above restrictions on channels 8-14. The proposal I made in that paper would take the nearly useless narrow band low power interstitial channels and put them to better use. The topic of this thread was more "repeater" channels. While not exactly adding more channels by allowing using digital voice on 8-14 and at a reasonable power, 5 watts in simplex mode, we effectively gain 5 more channels without asking the FCC for more spectrum, which likely won't ever happen. Better than nothing and a kick in the butt from the FCC.

Sounds like to me the battle is already lost. What your complaint is really all about is no FCC enforcement. Not really about digital voice, although you pick on it as an example. We also have reports by others of illegal use of GMRS by businesses with no licenses etc. This topic deserves a whole thread on its own. But that’s not what this one is about.

Two decent strength analog FM signals do a really good job of wiping each other out too. Did you bother to read the file I posted the other day on this thread?

I wouldn’t make a blanket statement like that. This is why the topic doesn’t get a serious discussion. There is a way to partially accommodate a digital voice mode if one is willing to consider reasonable options. Read the attached document, particularly the last few paragraphs. GMRS Digital Voice - 20231127.pdf

Could be true. But I swear some of the operators might be brain dead.

The problem with people asking for opinions is where they get good advise then go out and buy the cheapest P.O.S. on the market. Makes one wonder why they bothered to ask.

That's cool! I could use a new calendar for my office. One like the above would be nice.

Might be true of new models. However I own a bunch of older Kenwood radios the have Part 95 certification, and some of those are digital voice capable. My carry radio for GMRS and Ham UHF is the Kenwood TK-3170. A few others here use it as well. https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/263-tk-3170jpg/ TK-3170 Grant.pdf

Good old phone spoofing memories.

dPMR and the ultra narrow version of NXDN are similar except they use a different CAI, common air interface, protocol. In fact there was a European version of a Kenwood NXDN radio that could be converted to dPMR per the brochure. NX-220E-320E.pdf

They don't use GMRS in Germany. If anything its PMR446. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446

A while ago. You can still smell it. A few will still try to kick the bones around for a bit

It's going to take some careful thought to figure out how to do it. IMHO for the moment we should just forget running digital voice on repeaters. I think the major gain is digital voice on simplex. The logic there if you need a repeater the analog FM types seem to do a very good job of providing good coverage. The digital voice modes would primarily benefit HT to HT, or HT to mobile/base communications. Also remember UHF spectrum is limited. The FCC mandated most services move to narrow band in an attempt to free up more spectrum. Asking the FCC to allocate more spectrum to GMRS is very likely dead on arrival. We would be lucky to keep what we have now. https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/6478-digital-direct-mode-simplex-on-462-mhz-gmrs-channels/?do=findComment&comment=66329&_rid=1908

That's one of the key areas that has to be examined and the potential interference issues resolved. I covered that in the attached opinion paper in my prior post in this tread.

IMHO the argument for digital voice on GMRS has nothing to do with trying to make it a "Ham Lite" type hobby service or experimenting. I believe it it would improve the quality of the service, better with less noise communication. That is the primary reason why somebody would want to use the service, they have a communication need, the clearer the better, while digital voice provides that out closer to the range limits compared to analog FM. The key to the whole thing is how to go about it without creating a major disruption to the existing user base.

The programming example is for a dPMR radio. NXDN programming isn’t too bad.

So do I! When I was first messing with DMR my initial reaction was WTF?

You're one of the examples of those that have no interest digital voice modes, at least DMR, on GMRS. That's perfectly fine. Any implementation has to take those kind of interests into consideration. Undoubtedly, and from other posts, you aren't the only one. NXDN is not very complex to use. It can be used without talk-groups, unlike DMR. That deceases the complexity for the user. The attached images are screen shots of the programming software for the example Kenwood dPMR radio in that file. As you can see it's very simple. One is for the analog channels while the other is for the digital ones.

The issue you'll have the owners of those radios will soon realize the channels will become crowded with digital users rendering them almost impossible for analog FM use. That could happen quickly. Digital TV is a case in point. Also once people see no new analog FM radios are being sold they will most likely hang on to them much longer than otherwise might be the case. There are those who hate the sound quality of various digital voice modes and have zero desire to use any of them. If a large enough group objects to digital voice all over the channels, with their objection filed with the FCC, that's going to be a problem that needs a solution. I did a quick update to my opinion paper on how it could be done and some suggestions on how to deal with some of the potential objections by existing users. GMRS Digital Voice - 20231127.pdf

Before even petitioning the FCC there needs to be some general concuss about how to do it. Without that the FCC mostly would just deny it at the outset. So far can't really get to that point yet. DMR might not even be the mode to use. I haven't really read any good debate if there are better digital voice modes that could potentially be used. I believe there are. I posted an opinion paper I wrote outlining my thoughts. If anyone is interested doing some searching on the forum should turn up references to it. From various posts on the Internet digital voice is being used in pockets around the country. I don't expect that to change without some huge FCC enforcement action, which at this point in time doesn't seem to be high on their agenda. What's more likely to happen is the practice will continue and grow. Once it gets out of hand the FCC can do what it's done before, throw in the towel and make it legal. They did it with the combo GMRS/FRS radio mistake. Buggered around with the rules such that what people were already doing illegally is now legal.

That annex is huge. I think the relevant section starts on page 92 of the linked document. Most of that annex after that is just the specific test conditions for each mode. https://fasma.org/wp-content/uploads/TSB-88.1-D-Wireless-Communications-Systems-Performance-in-Noise-and-Interference-Limited-Situations-Part-1-Recommended-Methods-for-Technology-Independent-Performance-Modeling-Includes-Access-to-Additional-Content.pdf

When the rules changed to allow license free FRS radios to run 2 watts isn't going to help matters considering business are free to use them.

The problem with digital voice modes is there are so many of them. I have radios for D-Star, DMR, NXDN and P25 Phase 1. Nothing yet for YSF, or dPMR which is mainly an EU license free service like FRS here but digital. Haven’t seen it in North America yet. If that wasn’t enough there is a new one, M17. https://m17project.org