gman1971

The NXDN 6.25 is, IMO, nothing but a gimmick. For the non-tech person it looks like a panacea. And at first glance, its pretty obvious that you want to do FDMA and not TDMA, but once you start calculating budgets and figuring out what you need, you quickly realize that double the equipment per frequency is in order, with even tighter filtering, so twice or triple the cost of a TDMA solution. IMO, again, IMO, for a less complex 2-way radio system (vs a cellphone system), I think a TDMA solution makes a much better use of the spectrum (like GSM did). And, again, personally, if I could afford to run TETRA I really would, I really like the TETRA b/c it has 4 timeslots vs just 2 slot of DMR. A TETRA implementation on GMRS would actually make the use of repeaters great, b/c now 4 guys can be talking simultaneously without messing with each other's talks. You can now use a public repeater to selectively call IDs (groups, individuals), rather than keying the repeater (and all that are linked to it) at 3:25 AM in the morning and waking everyone up to hear "WXZX1245, hey honey, I am going home." And lets not forget that, effectively, with a DMR/TETRA GMRS solution in place, most folks would have little need to build their own repeater for a less public (not encrypted) channel. Making good repeaters (like the Madison 700) now a viable option to have a group call with just your family so it doesn't open the squelch for a guy sitting in Indiana, who probably isn't very interested in hearing when you're going home. Maybe he is, but if so, he can run a nice thing called "promiscuous mode" so you can hear all traffic in the linked repeater network, but then, that is HIS choice. For a public GMRS DMR I would also filter ANY and ALL encrypted calls. Don't run encrypted crap, please, thank you. One possible way to do this on DMR would be: Assuming a hierarchy of Repeater -> Call Sign -> Family. Lets begin by assigning a repeater Group Call ID for every repeater, this Repeater Group Call ID will be issued to all the radios that connect to it via direct RF, so for example, for the Madison 700, the Group Call ID could be, say, ID 1000, and consequently all the registered radios that are in the Madison area will be listening to the 1000 Group Call. Then, when a new licensee signs up on the repeater, they get assigned two DMR IDs, first one is a Group Call ID, linked to your callsign, which will be then subsequently used by anyone under your callsign (ie. family) and a Private ID just for any new radio you get. So, now, when the wife gets a radio, all you get is another private DMR ID for that radio, and set the radio to listen to both the Group Call ID under your callsign and the Group Call for the repeater. So, now that GMRS repeater has become a pretty viable family comm service (which is what GMRS was meant to be) And then, b/c DMR allows to have 2 people talking at the same time (even more I think with the higher end Moto stuff) so again, digital makes so much more sense IMO. So you can effectively utilize repeaters like the Madison 700 area to do what GMRS was really meant for, and without bugging everyone and their mother (and especially when the repeater is linked all the way to Indiana from Wisconsin... holy cow, my simple radio call "WQXXXX, hey honey, I am going home" was heard all the way down to Indiana... that doesn't sound very appealing to a lot of people, hence there will be much less "repeater proliferation") That is just for basic GMRS family comms. But then you can create Group Calls for different things, like hobbies, say, there is a buch of GMRS guys who like RC planes and another who really likes "basket weaving", or guns, or Corvettes? No problem, create several group calls, ID 40001, 40002... so on so forth, and if you like RC planes, you just add that group ID to your personal radio, or if you like basket weaving you listen to that ID, so the guys who hate "basket weaving" don't have to listen to the "basket weavers" yap all day long about how awesome it is,etc. Same goes for RC planes, or whatever it is that floats your boat. Again, this is just my opinion, I clearly understand that the current FCC regulations don't allow for any digital modulation at the time of this writing, so don't use digital, but then again, dreaming is for free. G.

In regards to the digital noise: I wouldn't blame the modulation type 'per se', but the radios that are doing the transmissions. The DMR CCR (Cheap China Radios) tidal wave is, based on my observations, the primary responsible for the digital noise mess, on both RECEIVE and TRANSMIT. First, those cheap transmitters make so much noise all over the spectrum that is just not even funny, so you have to keep the power really low, or it spews crap all over the place. Which is, unfortunately, not what a newcomer/beginner will do, they will crank power on their new CCR to 50W, b/c you know, running 50W is going to give them 50 miles of range, or more! haha. After talking (and learning) from a member here, I now run bandpass cavities on all my high power Vertex Standard gear. And I have to say that the adjacent channels emissions, noise, etc, using whatever modulation FM, DMR, all have gone from barely detectable to undetectable at 10 yards on a 7.2 dBd gain antenna at 20 feet above a 2 story house, even when running it at 50W... Then, what I've also found out is that the CCR stuff is the most affected by noise too, regardless of it being DMR, NOAA, etc. The higher end Vertex gear, even without the cavities, was able to cope with the noise fairly well, but CCR radios like the GD77 or the TYT DMR mobile, etc, all those were pretty much desensed out of this world... so be aware that if you run a CCR, expect interference no matter what, and realize that is not THEIR radio what is causing the interference to you, its your own cheapie that simply can't handle the high RF environment. Again, police and firefighters don't run CCR stuff for a reason, b/c receiver selectivity/dynamic range is pretty my critical to any radio these days, something the CCRs are not capable of coping with. G.

Can you please elaborate this licensing thing?

All good questions, all of which I don't know the answers. But as a thought, (please don't burn me for the heresy hahahaha) why not make ALL channels narrowband 12.5, and split all the GMRS into 2 channels each? Should give more channels, potentially allow some sort of trunking?, and as a standard make the upper part of each wideband digital ONLY and the lower part of the old wideband channel ANALOG only. Again, just as a thought. Instead of 22 channels (excluding FRS and including GMRS repeater input) we would have 44 GMRS channels to chose from, so we could run more stuff and double the amount of pairs for repeater usage. But I am aware that it will be a massive change in regulations... so perhaps is not possible to implement. G.

DMR, for good or for evil, is here to stay. Personally, I don't think interfering with people's communications, whether legal or illegal (not up to you to decide, but for a judge), is a sound tactic either; two wrongs don't make it right. If someone is using DMR and its bothering you to the point of turning your face purple, then by all means, head out to the FCC online complaint website and file away, but by interfering with someone's communications you're also breaking the law. As for the DMR stuff, I've personally played around with it and I have to admit, its like the dark side of the force... it lures you... wide FM only sounds better when you have an amazing setup, but with a crappier setup you still get crystal clear audio until pretty much the end of the reception, then having the option to call groups, or individuals, send SMS, have 2 talkpaths on a single channel, or the option to do single-frequency repeaters...etc... the power of the dark side is strong... very strong.... I wouldn't mind a revision to the rules, but in the meantime, FM is what we have, now, if we like DMR that much, we should collect enough signatures from licensed operators to get the FCC to revise the laws and pass new ones that allows DMR/MotoTRBO on GMRS. G.

Marc pretty much nailed it on the head. I would also add Anytone While its certainly better in terms of front end filtering, these still use direct conversion stuff which suffers quite a bit when the RF space gets crowded. Hytera Yep, they are supposed to be competition to Motorola, they are supposed to be "good", but its fairly clear that they had some shenanigans with Motorola, including stealing Motorola patents, which they were forced to remove by court, and (my personal opinion) most likely they stole Motorola technology too. I simply won't support a company that steals, or is suspicious of stealing, tech from another company, then cutting prices b/c of the free hitchhike in tech they got from the technology theft. To reiterate, I would only consider purchasing any of the ones in Marc's list for non mission critical roles. Again, buy these radios with the knowledge of what you're buying. I own a bunch of BF-888s for house intercom, range is about 1/5th of a mile before you can barely understand the other person. For high power application, make sure you get FCC type certified equipment... nowadays there is plenty of surplus commercial gear that will work wonderfully, Motorola, Kenwood, iCom, Vertex, etc. Why? b/c if your neighbor TV starts to develop glitches, and he (or she) traces it back to you b/c your cheapie is spewing 50 watts of all kinds of dirty harmonics and messing with his Superbowl game, etc, he/she could easily file an online FCC complain now, and while 1 complain might not spark FCC wrath right away, two or three in quick succession certainly will, and then, when the FCC comes down on you it probably won't be pretty. Again, in radios the motto of "you buy cheap, you buy twice" also applies. If these BTechs were that great, police and firefighters will use them, but they don't. As a final note, considering the amount of money you will end up spending on a decent GMRS setup, saving 50 bucks on your first radio is nothing. A decent GMRS setup (with radio range measured in miles, rather than in inches), with radios, feedline, connectors, filters, duplexers, antennas, etc, will end up costing you almost a thousand dollars. G.

You're preaching to the choir WRAF213, , it boils down to the: don't buy cheap radios that aren't even type accepted. Radioddity radios use TYT cheapie stuff, which is horrible for desensing... so I would avoid anything made by TYT, Retevis and the other clones... they are all pretty much radios with zero front end filtering. With that said, what I meant to say in my previous post is that, for example, my MARS/CAP modded Kenwood TM-V71a radio (not a cheapie), the advertised receiver specs are only guaranteed on the ham frequency ranges, once you go out of that range, then you have to look at the service manual to realize that the specs are a lot worse than what you thought you were getting. G.

Yes, I concur, ditch the modified ham gear, man. FYI, the specs on those ham radios are only guaranteed for the ham frequencies, not for out of band frequencies, such as GMRS... so chances are you have a subpar radio on GMRS. G.

Yep, Marc is right. Unfortunately my experience with more power is even bleaker than Marc's experience, b/c for me, going from 5 to 50 on GMRS netted zero additional miles, yep, you heard that right: nada, zip, zero.... which pretty much proves what Marc's post stated: "If your in a bad spot, it won't matter how much power you're running." May I ask what is it that you're trying to do? A Base to Mobile? Base to Portable? Mobile to Portable? Portable to Portable? Also, for whatever is worth, as a former Baofeng addict, always running on Baofeng budgets, etc, always mesmerized by their fancy color screens and pretty LEDs, etc; I had to get out of that trend of thought and buy higher quality (with no color screens, nor fancy and useless bells and whistles) commercial grade Vertex Standard radios, which draw rings around the BTech stuff where it matters: in the RF performance department... with tighter receivers (key factor) that won't desense in high RF environments, which nowadays is pretty much anywhere near a city larger than 500 souls population.... G.

Very cool. Thank you. G.

I also recommend moving away from UHF connectors. I've started this transition and while it is painful at first, not having to deal with degrading connections in harsh weather is a huge plus in my book. I used delectric grease STUF on the UHF connectors, but it is always an extra (messy) step and when you take them apart you usually have to clean them and reapply. So I really advice to get N connectors if you can. G.

Sweet.... I think you'll be very happy with those radios, and if you ever decide to venture into DMR you'll find that those radios are absolutely AMAZING compared to the CCRs... G.

CCR = Crippled Communication Range.

No, is not just Motorola, I tried two different cables, and none of my EVX radios worked with those. I had communication errors and all kinds of headaches, on 2 different machines. After 2 hours of mucking with these, they went back to oriental chasm whence they came. The FIF-12 cable can be found in Wiscom.com for ~100 bucks IIRC. If you are going to buy/use quality radios, cheaping out on the cable is like buying a Ferrari and purchasing narrow steel rims and tires b/c these OEM tires are too expensive to replace... G.

Yep, if they break you won't have a big dollar burning hole on your pocket. G.

50 bucks for SILVER connectiors!!!???? man, what do they think I am made out of? GOLD? ( no pun intended)

I am pretty certain that Vertex radios can be made wideband by using the NON-USA programming software. I've done it to my EVX mobiles without any issues. and YES, other cables will certainly not work. I did try, but didn't work, almost ruined the radio so I returned these and got the OEM FIF-12, never had an issue with that. G.

It sounds like the same "wild goose chases" I went through when I was all about Baofengs and 20 dollar budgets "can you hear me now?" Again, nothing wrong with that; its just don't hold your expectations too high with the lower end stuff. Otherwise police and military would be operating 20 dollar Baofengs instead of the APX8000 radios and whatnot. G.

Yes, agreed 100%. I run used EVX radios and I haven't had any issues. Obviously asking questions beforehand helps a long way, sometimes the radios are new, but they were opened for a customer that ended up going a different route. Many times is upgrade, upgrading to digital, etc... newer radio, different brand. In general the commercial gear if hasn't been sunk in the ocean should work very well even used. G.

For Heliax LDF4-50 1/2" cable? B/c I also have a ton for LMR400 cable, but finding those for Heliax is more difficult. G.

Which proves the point, that those things are a hit or miss, b/c the QC is just not there. Again, I started with those and I have a dozen or so of these BF-888S at home set as intercom. The point I am trying to make here is to be VERY AWARE of what you're getting, understand its limitations and make an educated purchase. G.

This, a-men.

I used the Baofengs for quite a while before going the Vertex Standard route... and again, so long you're aware of the limitations, it doesn't really matter so long it works. G.

Yes, I learn that lesson about connectors the hard way, next antenna and all after that one will be N connectors... its sealed, and its much easier to get high quality silver plated or tri-metal N connectors than it is for the UHF 239/259 stuff.... G.

Thank you RCM, however, the Vertex Standard mobiles I have ATM are working great so at this point I think I am all caught up on GMRS radios. (while keeps thinking about ham ticket, finding ways to buy MORE radios ) hahaha.