kirk5056

When we choose a GMRS Travel Channel what are some of the criteria we should consider? I have thought of a few, I am sure there are more. When I refer to GMRS I also mean FRS unless noted. This is my second rant of three on the GMRS Travel Channel. In my first rant (yesterday) I gave my thoughts on what a Travel Channel is and how some other radio services have handled the concept. To review, I suggested that a Travel Channel is made up of three components, a Call/Hail component, a Chat/Rag chew component and a Distress component. And we saw that some radio services have all three components on one channel, some have each with a channel alone and some combined them on two channels. These are my thoughts on the criteria, you may disagree. CRITERION: HIGHEST TX POWER It seems to me that we should choose from the highest allowed power channels (GMRS 15-22). This gives the prospective caller the most choices for TX power. CRITERION: BE LIKE CB Since many come to GMRS from CB those people may be expecting GMRS 19 to be like CB 19. Those coming from public safety, military, ham, aviation or marine may not have those same pre-conceived notions. I am not sure that nostalgia should be an important criterion. CRITERION: FCC LINE A There is an international agreement (signed in 1965, so it is nothing new) between the US and Canada that restricts the use of certain frequencies within a certain distance of the Canadian border. The FCC calls this Line A. For GMRS that means we cannot use GMRS 19 and GMRS 21 in those areas. I cannot find any documentation to show why those only GMRS frequencies and not other GMRS channels. Now, only effecting areas near Canada may not seem like much of the US but a look at the FCC website map shows something else. Looking at the FCC map it appears that GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in some major metropolitan areas like Seattle and Everett Washington. Nor can they be used in the major metro areas of Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint and Saginaw Michigan. They cannot be used in the metro areas around Cleveland and Toledo Ohio. Also, cannot be used around Buffalo, Syracuse and Rochester New York. Nor can they be used in about 20-30% of Vermont and New Hampshire. And others Also, looking at FCC’s map it appears that GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in about 80% of the State of Maine and about 60% of the State of Michigan-with their major adventuring areas. Speaking of adventuring areas, GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in New York’s Adirondack Mts or 4 of Michigan’s 5 National Forests. They also cannot be used on 4 of the 5 Great Lakes. They cannot be used in the Boundary Waters canoe area and the rest of the Superior National Forest. They cannot be used in several Indian Reservations nor in Glacier National Park. GMRS 19 & 21 cannot be used in several of Washington State’s National forests, most of Puget Sound and all of Olympic National Park. Nor can GMRS 19 & 21 be used at about 10% of the NFL stadium tailgate parties or about the same percentage of MLB stadiums. I almost forgot, there is also an FCC Line C. It seems to prohibit the use on GMRS 19 & 21 in and around the Alaska capitol of Juneau. They cannot be used in any of the Alaska panhandle and the associated waters, so popular in the adventuring and cruise industries. They are also prohibited from use in several National preserves, the Wrangell-St Elias National Park and most (if not all) of the US part of the Alaska Highway. CRITERION: COMMONLY KNOWN There is a channel that seems to be, by some GMRS operators, to already be the GMRS Travel Channel. The GMRS Travel Channel debate/discussion comes up frequently on the GMRS forums that I read. When it does some people always point out that GMRS 20 is, or at least was, the unofficial Travel Channel. I am sure many, like me, don’t post but also think this to be true. This shows at least some common agreement on the topic already existed. A google search also shows some references. It is listed on the 333 Radio Plan and even the flyer that comes with the Wouxun KG-UV9g PRO and KG-UV9gx from Better Safe Radio labels GMRS 20 (PL 141.3) as the Travel Channel. My un-scientific review of the repeaters listed on this site it appears that many, if not most, repeaters that claim to be a “Travel Repeater” are on repeater channel 20 (rx 462.670, tx 467.670). CRITERION: MOST IMPORTANT The last criterion, that I can think of, and the most important one, is a nod to, and paraphrase of, Spinal Tap’s Nigel Tufnel. If Nigel was discussing the GMRS Travel Channel debate he undoubtedly would say that GMRS 20 IS one better than GMRS 19. Case closed. ? CONCLUSION We are a relatively new radio service so we could have picked any of our 22 rx frequencies. A look at my criteria above seems to me to make one frequency a little more desirable then the others. But choosing one of the two frequencies prohibited for use in a small but significant part of the country seems like a weak choice. “Some people” may disagree. Before the GMRS Travel Channel Committee gave us it’s decision we had two groups. One group had no idea that there was a Travel Channel and another group that thought it might be, or could be, or maybe was GMRS 20. So, to end the confusion between these two groups the GMRS Travel Channel Committee gave us a third group, the GMRS 19 group. Instead of picking one of the existing groups. I believe that the GMRS Travel Channel “Committee” included one of the most influential, well thought of and entertaining people in the GMRS universe. I agree with the “Committee’s” basic premise (someone just has to make a decision) but (mostly because of the FCC’s Lines A & C) I think the “Committee” was in error with it’s choice of GMRS 19. A similar GMRS “committee” recently declared GMRS 16 as the 4x4 channel using the same “has to” idea. That “committee” pointed out that in math 4 X 4 = 16 so GMRS 16 was the logical choice—THIS WAS INSPIRED. I was considering making the GMRS Travel Channel my stand-by channel so that strangers AND friends can find me, while I am still able to monitor the Travel Channel. But, even though I live on the good side of Line A, a lot of my travels and most of my adventuring takes place on the wrong side of Line A so I cannot use GMRS19 as my stand-by at this time. But this is NOT reason for my rants. Please read my next rant where I propose structuring our GMRS Travel Channel (regardless of frequency) in such a way that might encourage more use of it.

What is a radio “Travel Channel” and how do other radio services use the concept? These are my thoughts. I am not an expert, I am not a ham (sad or otherwise) but I might be “some people”. Some of you will disagree with my thoughts, some will point out that I am wrong on some issues (I invite that, my goal is to raise the knowledge base of GMRS operators not pretend to know it all). I may leave out important things, I don’t do it on purpose. When I refer to GMRS I also mean FRS unless I say otherwise since they both share the same frequencies. In my un-scientific review of the GMRS forums (that I know of) the three main recurring topics are: 1) I bought my new GMRS radio and now no one will talk to me or I don’t hear anyone talking. 2) I turn off my PL filters to scan GMRS so that I can hear EVERYTHING on those channels and now I am hearing too much (kids, highway flaggers or businesses) so I want them to stop using the channels. 3) Is there a GMRS Travel Channel (or road channel or calling/hailing channel)? I think GMRS was designed to solve particular communication issues among small groups of people that already know each other. But, I think finding an answer to Topic 3, a well thought out, commonly recognized national Travel Channel, could act like a magnet: drawing in people that WANT to be heard by strangers and repelling those that do not. But first I need to give my definition of some terms (that some will disagree with). TRAVEL CHANNEL I see a travel channel is comprised of three components. CALLING/HAILING The first is the most obvious and that is the channel used to call, hail, make initial contact with strangers. This could be to call that Jeep that just crossed the trail or contact a local for information. This includes those that hope a stranger will call, so they listen on this channel. CHAT/RAG CHEW CHANNEL You may think that this should be the same channel as above but you will see that some other radios services separate them. This is where information is passed, conversations take place and stories told. On CB 19 I think of it as just noise. DISTRESS CHANNEL This is the channel that could be used to call for rescue or more likely (due to GMRS short ranges) a channel to help rescuers zero in on the person in distress. I think that is what the Wyoming 307 radio plan is all about, assisting rescuers find the caller, not making the initial distress call. We will see that some of the other radio services have these 3 components on one channel, some have each on its own channel and some use a combination. CHANNEL What makes a channel different from a frequency? Some people confuse frequency and channel. Some confuse the radio or programing software memory location as channel. My definition of a “channel” is a combination of frequency, PL filter and a label. I know much more goes into a channel (TX power, band width etc) but for this rant it is all I will use. FREQUENCY Two-way channels have 2 frequencies (RX/TX- sometimes the same, some with an off set). Monitor-only channels have 1, but I will refer to frequency as singular most of the time. PL FILTER I am talking about CTCSS/DCS codes but I am using “PL” for short hand (get over it). I am calling them “filters” and not “codes” because filter is actually closer to how they work. LABEL Giving a frequency a label is what, in my mind, really makes it a channel. Most newer GMRS radios allow some type of label on a screen, even bubble pack radios have a label (618 is a label). Some labels are just common knowledge (CB 19, marine band channels), some are labeled on flight/mission plans, or on harbor or airport maps/charts, or just on a slip of paper Scotch taped to the radio or mic (that is how we did it early in my public safety career). When frequency is combined with PL filters our 30 (22/8) frequencies can become over 3,000 discrete channels, so assigning a label becomes very import when referring to any one of them. “Discrete” is used here according to Merriam-Webster dictionary meaning of: “constituting a separate entry: individually distinct”. NOT PRIVATE and certainly NOT SECURE. Just meaning a channel where you may not be bothered by unwanted noise and transmissions, most of the time. RADIO SERVICES CELL PHONE While not technically a radio “service” they do use radio waves. For this rant cell phones suck as a call/hail device to reach strangers. Once contact is made there is nothing better for chat. IF you have cell service there is no better way to call for help. 911 works almost everywhere and you can “stay on the line” to zero in the help. SATELLITE PHONE This is similar to cell phone with better coverage. But expensive. SATELLITE DISTRESS DEVICES (inReach, Spot etc) Also not really a radio service but does use radio. These are totally worthless for contacting strangers (or even friends) around you. They are very limited for chat, usually only text with pre-arranged computer equipped people. But they seem to be very good at calling for help (I must admit very little personal knowledge). I plan to buy one for my next out west adventure. MILITARY The military does not seem to have any national or generally recognized call/hail pre-set channels or distress pre-set channels. They do have those channels but they are geographic or mission designated. RAILROAD The railroads have many frequencies, both analog and digital, and they seem to be shared by all of the companies. But any call/hail or distress pre-set channels seem to be geographic, route specific or company specific. BUSNESS RADIOS On the business radio service frequencies are usually allocated by license to geographic areas. Communication between businesses is rare without a new license allowing it. So any call/hail or distress channels are within each license. Businesses make up their own labels. PUBLIC SAFETY Like business radios public safety is limited to local or regional licenses. Some states have statewide licenses for interop or mutual aid. For public safety I am using “channel” as interchangeable with trunked “talk groups”. At one time 155.370 was common but rarely used now. I do hear it being used in northern Indiana still. Most agencies use their dispatch channel for calling/distress and have Tac or car-to-car discrete channels for longer or more detailed info. So, there is not a real national pre-set channel. BUT since 9-11, National Interoperability Field Operations Guide (NIFOG) has been developed. NIFOG has discrete channels on VHF lo, VHF hi, UHF and 700 and 800. On each of those bands there is a call discrete channel with 2-8 associated “Tac” channels, I assume, for more chat type traffic. NATIONAL INTERAGENCY FIRE CENTER (NIFC) This is sort of a subset of public safety but also uses aviation channels. NIFC has many labeled discrete channels but they are incident assigned not really a general use group. CB (Citizens band) CB has both Call/Hail and Chat/Ragchew on the same channel (CB 19) and has its distress channel on another (CB 9). I know some people change channels to chat but not enough for me. I find it hard to listen to CB 19 due to the noise and language. BUT there is no better source of real time information in a traffic jam/situation. I have a $800 police scanner on my dash but when I come upon a traffic problem I go to CB 19. No where else can I get real-time info on which lane to use, what is actually happening and maybe even an alternate route. MURS These lonely little frequencies stuck in the middle of the business band are rarely used and don’t really have any discrete channel labels other than each business user. But MURS 3 (third when listed numerically) is listed on the 333 Radio Plan (SHTF) as are channels from many of the radio services including ours. I have seen this 333 Radio Plan dismissed or mischaracterized as having to do with something called the 3 percenters? The threes actually come from the plan, during SHTF, to turn on your radio at the top of each third hour, for three minutes on your radio’s channel 3. It seems like it is worth knowing about. They list our “travel channel” GMRS 20 with 141.3 PL filter and FRS 3 and GMRS 17. In fact, threes are use a lot in wilderness survival, SAR and prepping. One use is the survival “Rule of 3”: you can live 3 minutes with out air, 3 hours without shelter (could be as little as a hat/gloves or a tent), 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. Threes also show up in emergency signaling. The mother of all emergency signals is SOS, which is just a series 3 dots and 3 dashes (I have no idea of the order so if I had to use it I would just dot-dot-dot, dash-dash-dash, dot-dot-dot, dash-dash-dash, dot-dot-dot until someone figures it out). Also, with a lamp or mirror you should flash three times, there is three horn, whistle, gunshots. Three bon fires, three colored panels on the ground, three pyramids and on and on. I know none of this has anything to do with radio services but next time you are out adventuring and detect a series of three anythings, you may want to investigate. I am not suggesting that we (GMRS) adopt this but we should be aware. HAM Ham operators are by far the most knowledgeable, professional and educated about radio operations, science and devices. I come from public safety where we, as a group, have no idea how radios work, or why. We just push the button and talk. Ham does have some discrete channels labeled for calling and they seem to then rag chew on that same channel. Hams are boring to listen to. In disasters and disaster planning they set up some very good distress channels but they are don’t seem to be nationally recognized. AVIATION This service, along with marine, has the best Call/Hail, Chat and Distress channels, in my opinion. Hailing is done on one of two discrete channels. They call them UHF Guard and VHF Guard (or Military Guard and Civilian Guard). I believe that aircraft are required to monitor one of these channels. You will recognize these channels as the ones used in movies and TV when a fighter jet comes up to a civilian aircraft and orders it to land or tries to wake up the pilot. This and distress calls are all that is allowed on these 2 channels. I have heard plane-to-plane directing the plane being called to change to another frequency. There are a few listed as air-air (fixed wing and helo). Mayday calls can be made on these guard channels and (maybe more frequently) on local tower channels or regional center channels. By the way Mayday calls are also given in threes. Mayday is something we can consider but it can ONLY be used when life or craft are in danger. On aviation and marine radios, PanPan repeated three times, is used for non-threat to life or craft emergencies. Mayday is now being used by some fire departments. MARINE This service is, in my opinion, the best at handling the Travel Channel issue as I have defined it. No traffic is allowed on the discrete hail channel except for hailing and distress. You cannot even do radio checks on this channel. AND it is enforced by the US Coast Guard. Vessels are required to “set a radio watch” on this channel. This leaves this channel available for destress calls. They have boat-to-boat and bridge-to-bridge (navigation bridge, not road bridge) discrete channels labeled. CONCLUSION Why is any of this important? Well, if we are going to have a “Travel Channel” it should be with the knowledge of how others before us have handled the concept. We (GMRS) are probably the newest radio service and as such we can learn from earlier mistakes and successes. No need to re-invent the wheel or use an imperfect wheel. I know the un-official GMRS Travel Channel Committee has met. And while I disagree with the Committee’s findings I whole heartedly agree with the beginning premise. That is SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORN AND JUST DECLARE A TRAVEL CHANNEL. I am just hoping, after I present more ideas in my next 2 rants that the Committee might reconsider.

IMHO most of the recent upgrades in GMRS has been more because of our youtube/forum influencers than any FCC action. I upgraded to the KG-UV9gx and found everything I loved in the pro model and the upgrades were GREAT.

It seems to me that Ham licenses are personal licenses and GMRS are group licenses (whole families) so using ham as a guide line is not really applicable. When I was in public safety (group licenses) each user/radio did not use the FCC call sign. FCC call signs were given (sub-audible) automatically or by the dispatchers. That seems to be more applicable to GMRS.

I agree that the FCC talks about "stations" but I see no station licenses. I would read that to mean that the PERSON'S ID is also IDing which ever radio (or radios in repeater mode) that person is operating. When I do range testing on several radios I do not re-ID with each radio I use. I announce my ID once per frequency then move around the radios I am testing. But I am not an expert.....

I am not a expert but..... It seems to me that the FCC ID belongs to the person not the radio. So if the person TXing IDs then the ID requirement is met. So regardless of how many individual radios the TX goes through as long as that person IDs the should satisfy the requirement.

I would like to see more usernames and fewer call signs. For continuity I can not remember who wrote what when it is call signs (not my memory type).

Or we could go back to using Channel 20!

Some of what you are warning about is true but rare. FM capture requires proximity and over-talking current other-PL traffic is very rare requiring both proximity AND simultaneous TXing. MOST of the time you will hear no non-group traffic and not bother any other groups, if they also are using PL filters.

If you are trying to hear everything on the GMRS frequencies then dont be surprised when you DO hear everything on the GMRS frequencies. IMHO the beauty of GMRS is the you and your group can set up your own CHANNEL by picking a frequency, adding a PL filter and greatly decreasing the chance of hearing others while meeting your comm needs. There is NO privacy ("they" can still hear you) but you can miss the other stuff most of the time.

Full re-set did not change the delay. Email sent to Better Safe Radio. Thanks

I have the Wouxun KG UV9g and I have noticed at power on it takes 10-25 seconds before I hear any transmissions. Is this normal? The delay is there regardless of PL filters, VOX off, keys locked or unlocked, priority on or off, back light on or off. There is a delay with the continuous NOAA WX channels. There is NO delay on the commercial FM radio, but is does take a few seconds to tune in a station. And there is not a delay on TX, but I can not hear a response until the 10-25 second delay is over. The delay is there regardless of whether is is a cold power up, or a "warmed up" re-power up. Any ideas?

I thought I understood this, but I guess not. I want to put a 1/2 wave whip on my Jeep window frame NMO mount (no ground plane). A ham friend gave me a 1/4 wave VHF antenna that I thought I could just cut down to 1/2 wave UHF. As I cut I get no meaningful changes on the SWR meter. I DO get a 1.05 SWR using a Midland "ghost" antenna but I dont know how much it will need for a ground plane. I was hoping to cut down the new antenna and do a range test with the ghost. Does SWR only work on 1/4 wave or does the reading translate to 1/2 wave?

I have a hard time listening to CB (especially 19) because of the noise and language. BUT when I encounter a traffic problem there is no better source of real time information on what is happening, which lane to be in, or how the find an alternate route. And I have a $700 police scanner on my dash!

Once upon a time--someone made a FRS radio with the actual radio inside the softball sized mag mount antenna and controls on a remote mic. I owned one and it was, at best, cumbersome. But it did work.

I disagree with the assumption that PL filters "reduces your ability to successfully make contact". If I lived in an area that had a distress channel I would dedicate a radio to that channel, but only if there was a PL filter so I would not have to listen to kids calling their teddy bear. If my dedicated radio made ANY noise (with the filter in place) then I would have a high likely hood of it being an actual distress call.

Keep 20! Every time this topic comes up many people cite 20 as THE travel channel all ready. Why reinvent the wheel. If we keep PL filter of 141.3 then few will even hear the channel unless they choose to. I would rather have a few choosing to MONITOR the channel then a lot of people randomly LISTENING to it (and trying to use their ears to filter out non-travel traffic). If you think simplex Travel channel users will bother your repeater then use a different out put PL filter, they are not using your input freq. BTW I live in Michigan, if we go with 19 then I cant use it in most of my state. I like the idea of just declaring channel 20 the "hailing/distress channel" it might be working for the "off road channel" (which I really like).

I dont pretend to understand FCC rules (not laws ) but I do have an occasional grasp on common sense. I cant see how anyone could be held accountable for content on their repeater unless they monitored it 24/7, with a 5 second delay AND a kill button. It seems to me that just following the ID rules (at start, 15 minutes, at end) on either simplex or repeater is the way responsibility is assigned.

1) I think "307" was picked only because it is also the phone area code for Wyoming (easy to remember) 2) Using a PL filter allows us to monitor a distress channel (freq + PL) without having to listen to everything else on that frequency. Short of outlawing the use of one of our very limited frequencies for any use other that distress, using a PL filter is a good way to encourage more people to monitor for distress calls.

"Limited to only 1/2 watt; why would any GMRS operator want to use Channels 8-15" I use those low power channels in high GMRS use environments such as NASCAR tracks, large camp grounds and amusement parks. Even with "PL" filters other users on the same freq can cause distortion or interference. But on those low power channels all LEGAL users are also limited to 1/2 watt so are less likely to over power my communications. My group rarely gets very far from each other so range is not all that important. For the same reason, most of my daily comms are on channels 1-7 to avoid the 50 watt units and repeaters.

Why do so many people come to my beloved GMRS and then try to find ways around the rules? Even if YOU dont like them or YOU think you are so special you need not follow them, those rules are what makes GMRS the best option for the two-way radio community that uses it. Maybe you need to be on ham, where they seem to accept out of the box ideas. Or maybe you need to join the yahoos on CB 6, where rules dont apply. But, I feel, GMRS is well crafted for what it does. I know you will never get caught but you could just accept our rules and be a good radio citizen.

If the FCC "Line A" is real (it seems to be) AND if applies to GMRS (as some report) then Channel 19 is not available to the whole US. I am not sure why but many have reported that Line A effects GMRS 19 and 21.

Channel 7 is limited to 5 watt (although it is my daily channel). Using channel 20 would allow higher wattage, if needed. I like the idea of using the "travel PL" filter (141.3) for hailing (initial contact) then moving to another PL filter or even a different channel for the chit/chat.

They seem to have a GMRS license. But, no matter where you go you may find someone using a GMRS frequency that you want to use. We are required, by license, to share. NO ONE has a "right" to a frequency. So, yes, play nice.

I believe that university was grandfathered on that frequency. They have been using it since the 80s (that I know of) when it was a licensed frequency. I read that previously licensed businesses can keep the license as long as then dont make any changes.