WRKC935

Again, where are you placing the surge suppressor's? They typically are inside the structure, either directly mounted to or wired to a ground bar located right at the entry point. Surge suppressors are a serviceable item, so they need to be exposed to be replaced after they fire and short. Not wrapped in putty and tape outside. Where do you come up with this crap?

Even though this is about as far from the truth as I can imagine, I am gonna give you to benefit of the doubt to explain this, WITH links to real documentation proving what you are saying is true. Even if I know it's BS and in truth NOT EVEN possible. I mean seriously, just give me a part number for the Burndy lug that's a single .25 (1/4 inch) hole that I can connect to an MTR repeater ground screw. Let along the one for a 10-32 screw hole that would be on a radio. Never mind getting the 500 bent into shape to connect to the radio. I have to see this. Do you have pictures? Are you using the 500 cable as the method to mount the radios on a desk?

Remember that I personally work in the commercial two-way field. Ham's and GMRS folks have the ability to disconnect their gear. Police and fire don't. And again, a public safety dispatch site really can't. They need stuff up and operational all the time. The stuff I am talking about is what gets done with their setups and what keeps them on the air. If you disconnect your antenna line from your radio then it's no different than leaving it connected IF everything is properly grounded and bonded. Because the lines, tower, and equipment is all still grounded. Something I forgot to mention with grounding and bonding. And the reason you bond the coax cables to the tower at the top, every 100 feet down and then at the bottom where the cable turns out of the tower and goes to the building is the magnetic pulse that happens if the tower does get hit. Due to the extreme currents that are present during the event (strike) there is a significant magnetic field that surrounds the tower. We all know that a wire will have a field around it as current passes through it. It's how motors work. Now crank that from a 6 volt battery to lightning. EVERY conductor that's around that structure taking the hit is exposed to that field. And remember that we pass coils of wire in magnetic fields to generate power. Again, little DC generator hooked to a light bulb with a couple small magnets will light a light bulb when we spin the generator with our fingers. Turn that up to lightning power and magnetic fields. So we BOND the coax shield, since it's a conductor back to the tower to equalize that induced current and voltage and shunt it back to the tower and ultimately to ground. There is a LOT of science to bonding and grounding of towers and antenna systems. There are some of use that have went down that rabbit hole and have a reasonable understanding of this. And I will say this, keeping it simple. Cars get hit by lightning, even though they are on rubber tires. And the reason is that 6 inches of rubber ain't enough to keep an arc that's thousands or tens of thousands of feet in length from hitting a car with 4 inches of rubber. And they get hit because they aren't grounded. You ever get a bite from a car getting in or out? It's a thing. But a glass jar isn't gonna keep that genie in the bottle any more than 4 inches of rubber is gonna keep your car from being hit. IT has to be grounded properly or you are INVITING a strike.

RG400 is silver plated conductors, double shield and Teflon dielectric. It's what Motorola specifically uses for all their commercial radio jumpers up to 800 Mhz. If you are not familiar with putting connectors on cables, it's a better move to just buy premade jumpers that are pretested and verified to be good. The bit of extra money is worth the piece of mind you get in knowing they will work and are assembled correctly. For 50 or 100 watts, its fine, the losses are not that significant in the 24 inches of cable that going to a different cable would really make a difference in system performance. And the cable is flexible enough that you don't have to fight it like you would LMR400 or any other .429 diameter RG8 class cable. If you REALLY can't be convinced that it's the right stuff however and want that extra diameter, the go with RG393 jumpers. Same construction as RG400 / RG142 (142 is a solid center conductor) but it's the .429 diameter. Your looking at about 15 bucks a FOOT for 393 if it brand name like Belden. And if you ARE going to build your own cables, buy brand name connectors and not the crap on Amazon. There are good connectors on Amazon, but there is some really cheap stuff too that for a repeater, I just wouldn't bother. Remember that repeaters are a fixed station. Meaning once you install it at a location, it's just gonna be there. They don't get moved around like from place to place. Better 'stuff' being used to build it means less screwing with it and less problems down the road.

Yes, there is always going to be a difference. You bond because coax connectors are NOT high current rated. The circular mills of the shield conductor is also not sufficient to minimize the resistance of the conductor. This is why you don't use split bolts and crap to do your grounding. It's all CadWeld or 15 ton compression lugs / connections.

Another, and a bit more in depth explanation / fact with lightning grounding and bonding. And the reason you ground EVERYTHING. Wires are NOT a perfect conductor. No matter the wire size or length, copper wire does have a resistance. Meaning that a voltage applied at one end of the wire will NOT be the same as the voltage at the other end of it depending on the voltage and current in the wire. More over, and this was mentioned before. The ground, no matter the number of rods, plates, screens or whatever you bond together in your grounding field. That connection to the ground is NOT perfect either. So, when a strike happens, a direct strike. The voltage (potential) of the equipment with reference to earth ground (0 volts) rises with the strike and then falls. Now this can be thousands or possibly tens of thousands of volts. So, that being said. If you DON'T bond everything together and the tower takes a strike. The radio is connected to the tower. The power supply is connected to your safety ground for the utility feed. Between them is a potential voltage of thousands to tens of thousands of volts. The radio and the power supply are sitting next to each other and the radio case voltage is 50KV, and the power supply case potential is 0 volts. Guess what happens. Bang. Flash. Smoke. If everything is bonded, it all goes to 50KV or whatever voltage, and then back to zero. And you are protected from that spike. Because it all went up and down. It's the difference in potential that causes issues. And a crappy ground field and good bonding practices are far SAFER than a great grounding system and half the gear not being connected to it, and in truth, its worse than nothing at all because it really creates the possibility of the difference in potential in the radio room. Now, no one has discussed the reason we ground to begin with. And the primary function is NOT to handle a strike. That's a secondary function. The primary function of a grounding system is to keep everything connected to it at ground potential and at 0 volts with reference to ground. The CB guys will tell you about their coaxes popping while they are in a glass jar and disconnected from the radio. This is the MOST DANGEROUS situation of all. Reason being is that antenna is going far above ground potential by thousands of volts until the air breaks down as an insulator and it arc's off. Lightning will always take the path of least resistance. To understand that, you need to understand the whole 'potential' thing. The short version is that lightning will strike the place that has the highest charge on it. If your antenna has several thousand volts on it and the tree next to it don't and the ground don't then boom, the antenna gets the hit. The higher in the air something is and the higher the potential that thing has, is gonna be the point that the strike happens. So then we introduce grounding and bonding to the mix. When you ground the tower, feed line, antenna, obstruction light, and all the rest of it. All of it's at the same potential as the ground that it's sitting on / in. All that static build up, which is what causes the coax to arc off in the storm, is run to ground and that keeps the potential low. For the radiating elements on a non-grounded antenna like a long wire or a dipole for HF work, a surge suppressor is used. And they have multiple things internally that help keep the potential low. First is a resistor that has enough resistance to NOT effect the SWR or impedance of the antenna system. Now the second part is a gas discharge tube. These tubes are rated to 'fire' or short when a voltage above a certain point is reached. This is where the power or wattage rating comes from on these. Because we know the resistance / impedance of the circuit (50 ohms) the voltage across that 50 ohm load will result in some power level. So the firing voltage is some percentage above that voltage. It's why hams running mismatched antenna's will fire their surge suppressors when running reasonably low power levels but the antenna instead of being 50 ohms is 700 ohms or something like that and they are using an antenna tuner to lie to the radio and show it a 50 ohm impedance. The impedance doesn't change in the antenna and cable past the tuner, it's still high. THe tuner is what matches it. BUT, 100 watts is 100 watts. IF that's what you are putting into the antenna when it's operated in it's bandwidth and presents a 50 ohm impedance then the voltage is X. But if the antenna is 700 ohms and the power is still 100 watt's the voltage is NOT X any more, it's far higher. And that surge suppressor will fire at that point. But back to the point of keeping everything, but mostly the tower, at ground potential is this. If the top of the tower is the same potential as the ground around the tower, then the lightning will go find a tree somewhere to hit. Or it will hit the ground because the top of the tower doesn't look any better to lightning than the ground around it. Don't bleed off that static charge and that tower will take hits. And a tower that's been hit a couple times will get to the point it looks REALLY good. Reason is that the ground rods will encase themselves in glass or whatever dirt is around them as the get hit. The more often they get hit, the more buildup happens. In sandy soil, they will encase themselves in glass. And at that point you have no more ground. The whole system will need to be dug up and replaced. I have seen this.

To explain it really simple. If you have a ground rod on one end of your house for your service and another one at the other end of the house with your radio gear and they are not bonded together. If you have a strike, even a ground strike at one end of the house, a tree near the house, or whatever at that end. The lightning will COME IN the one ground, go through your equipment via the safety ground (bottom pin on power cord) across the equipment / power supply, into the radio then back out to the coax or ground wire, then out to the ground rod it's all hooked to. That is the difference of potential that is talked about. The ground is NOT a perfect conductor. And it's not unreasonable to see 50 Kv or more across 10 feet of ground during a strike. I install public safety radio sites, including ones that are co-located dispatch centers with radio towers. Key part of this is the dispatchers wear headsets that as far as lightning goes, a direct path exists between the top of that tower and their headsets. You BOND everything. The headset jack gets bonded, the furniture, the equipment, the racks the equipment is in, the radios, the wiring between the radios and the console electronics, the coaxes entering the building with a surge suppressor, then outside the building, at the base of the tower, every 100 foot up the tower and then right at the connection point to the antenna. The tower gets bonded to all this. Then there are ground rods on every leg of the tower. Those are bonded together, called a tower ground loop. Then the building has a ring around it with ground rods every ten feet again in a loop. Those rings are bonded together, there are lines that go out into the property with more ground rods that are every 10 feet. All the connections are done with CadWeld or 15 ton compression connections with a hydraulic press. All that is bonded to the service entrance ground. Then in the building, everything that is metal that is a fixture gets grounded. Meaning file cabinets, conduits, desks, window and door frames. Anything that not immediately movable. Of course, air handlers, plumbing, and the like are also bonded back to the ground along with the building frame if it's conductive. A lot of people will question the required wire gauge, stating that a number 2 wire could never hold the current of a direct strike. And that's only partly true. Lightning is very fast. Wire will carry a very high amount of current for a very short amount of time. Anyone that's ever shorted something across a battery will recognize that whatever it was didn't instantly turn to plasma and vanish. It takes some time for the wire to heat up and then catch fire. And longer for it to burn in half. It's that fact that allows a number 2 conductor to take the abuse of being hit across and not just being vaporized. Yes, there are instances that heavier wire is needed. Like the ground rings, runs longer than 50 feet and situations where a multipoint grounding bar is located where a number of devices are connected to a single point with number 6 wires. But a number 6 wire, at least with the R56 install standard, is the minimum required wire gauge for any ground and if it's connected to a ground bar with other devices or grounded objects, then the wire going from that ground bar back the the master / main ground bar needs to be a number 2. OH, and what you are referring to as a 'house ground' is the electrical service ground. And at a tower site it IS bonded to the site grounding system. Google the R56 standard and read over the site grounding requirements for a tower site.

ASL (All Star Link) is right there too. ANd it's the ASL code that myGMRS was using. It's what Freedom Nation is still using. And the DVSwitch phone app will connect to a node directly with no server in between if you know what you are doing. I personally don't bother with any of that and just use MotoBridge since I have direct wireline connection to all my repeaters with it. In addition I have numerous other radios that I have full control of IE, zone and channel selection, front panel button access and control. All the good stuff. But, ASL, or even the old image we were using for myGMRS can be modified to be connected to with the DVSwitch app. My guess is it was never talked about by the admins because it would have been one more thing to provide assistance and support on if they were to have mentioned it would work. I have seen it work, I have made it work. I am NOT going to help anyone else with it. They can figure it out on their own just like I did or give up in disgust.

Well, define 'abandoned'. There are a number of towers that are owned by someone, all over the US that are not currently active, but are not by what I believe you are inferring, abandoned. Many are indeed owned by the major vertical real estate companies like Crown Castle or American Tower. Some are owned but private individuals or businesses that are not in the vertical real estate business, but do own the property a tower sits on. You are no doubt asking because you want to put up a repeater and think if you can find an abandoned tower, that you can just roll up in there and get to work putting up a repeater on it and no one will care. Well, good luck with that. First issue is there isn't a piece of property anywhere in the US that's not owned or claimed by someone else already. And if there is a tower on it, someone put that tower there. As a person that manages and maintains a tower. Like a real tower, not a 20 foot pipe on the end of my house, but a 240 foot microwave tower sitting on 1.3 acre's of land with a building. Here's what you face, IF you can find an abandoned tower or one that someone will allow you to have full access to. First is an electric bill. Because you simply are NOT going to find some rich benefactor that will not only allow you access to their tower, but pay your power bill as well. Second is the building condition. If it's truly abandoned, and unused, then it's not being maintained. So the roof will leak, the door may or may not even close. You may face it being full of animals, birds and lots of poop. Bird poop will give you an incurable disease. Don't remember what it's called, but look it up, it's a thing. So getting the building ready to put a repeater in might require a hazmat suit and respirator to just be in and out of the thing. And mold.... yeah, gonna be plenty of that too. Now, getting the power turned back on may well require permits, and civil engineering plans with PE stamps to obtain the permits. We had to do that too. More money. If the crack heads have been there stealing wire, then you are rewiring the building. Again, been there and done that. More money. Then there is the tower. What shape is it really in? Is it a guyed tower, or free standing? Is it rusted or in reasonable shape? Guyed towers will hide dangers. The anchor heads will rust just below the ground and you will not see that if you don't dig them up. Simply attempting to climb a tower with that issue may cause the tower to fall, with you on it. Then there is the base pier, the grouting and all that other stuff that since you are asking this question, you know nothing about. You don't posses the knowledge to even judge the structural integrity of the tower to begin with. This can create TWO issues. First is simple. If you are on the tower and it falls, you die. Second issue is you have someone else on the tower and it falls, they die, and you get sued by both the tower owner in front of 12 people that have equally no clue about a tower but know YOU were allowed to access it and it's down and someone died. And not only will the family of the dead guy be suing you, but so will the tower site owner to claim you were at fault, and responsible, but also to protect himself from that family from coming after him. Just depends on who gets to the court house first with the lawyers to file the suit. A friend told me once ' I can't afford free" and free towers typically very few can afford, and they don't figure that out until they have made some level of commitment to do something with a site that they have no business being involved with. But I will tell you this. There are NO FREE ABANDONED towers anywhere that you are gonna just walk into and put up a repeater at without significant cost. And remember that we haven't talked about repeaters, cable, antenna's or any of that yet.

Repeater to repeater yes. Repeater to a phone app, not so much. Motorola's WAVE will do it but only for MOTOTRBO repeaters running in digital. There are other commercial solutions, I can think of several, none are cheap. I was referencing phone linking. But, the systems that link phones to repeaters are the same systems that link repeaters to other repeaters in analog.

There are a number of other ways to link your phone or another node to your repeater. It's just not as easy as downloading a program, installing it and configuring it with some basic information. All the repeater linking that was done on GMRS, or at least a vast majority of it was done with Asterisk which is an IP PBX with an add in that allowed it to pass E&M and PTT. E&M in a phone system existed from day one. Before dialing a phone was even a thing. E&M is Ear and Mouth. Or for radio people TX audio and RX audio. Then you add a bit of 'telemetry' in the form of COR (carrier operated relay) and PTT. All that software needs is a destination address and that destination address to allow connections. With the system that was hosted by MyGMRS, there was a server that applied updates to the nodes to maintain the list of active nodes. But if you go into that list on the node and manually update it, then it will work fine without the database server feeding it. There are a few systems still out there that are GMRS related that are running the same node software and allow you to connect via certain phone app's that were designed for ham radio AllStarLink and other RoIP (Radio over IP) systems that are using Asterisk as there back end. Now setting that stuff up and getting it working is more involved than just getting a radio interface from Amazon and connecting it to a Windows machine where there is a web server out there managing all the linking and simply allowing you to find your node in a list and connect to it. You will now have to work at it to get it to happen but it's certainly possible if you put your mind to it and want to learn some Linux and Asterisk configuration along the way. And it can absolutely be done in a full stand alone manner that only requires a phone with internet access and a computer or Pi connected to the Internet with some fiddling with your router / firewall to allow the traffic in from the web. If you have carrier grade Internet access, then it becomes a bit more complicated, but still not anything that there isn't a solution for.

Folks need to get past this idea of 'more channels / frequencies' on GMRS. Out of everything that someone might want to change about GMRS, that's the one that's least likely to happen. The biggest issue is GMRS in is the LMR allocation for frequencies. We have commercial two-way above and below us. There are no more frequencies to be allocated to the service. And adding repeater pairs from the FRS frequencies really ain't gonna fly either because the interference issues that will be created by the bubble pack radios on those frequencies. Not to mention it would make all the current part 95 radios that aren't able to be flashed to add those repeater channels and make them obsolete. Which is what happened when CB was modified to have 40 channels from the original 23. While I don't like the idea of DMR or other digital modulation schemes being used on GMRS due to the issues that will create, it's a better and more reasonable option than getting more frequency allocation. They are NOT going to kick commercial users off their frequencies to give us more channels.

Absolutely. It's not as easy as doing a google search for a call sign. There is a bit of footwork involved and it's not possible in every state. But the biggest hole is the social media sites. People tend to have their personal info (name and location) on sites like Facebook and will then go on vacation and start posting pictures and videos of sandy beaches and sunsets for everyone to see while clearly being from Ohio, Indiana or any state without sandy beaches and drinks in coconuts. Point I am trying to make is that while, just like you stated, a simple Google search of a call sign will indeed get you the address and name of that person. Criminals have a number of ways to get that info. And they aren't going to be sitting in a room with a bunch of scanners listening to GMRS looking for someone to announce they are leaving town. The one that I always had an issue with was law enforcement running SSN and drives licenses over the air. Complete with car make, model and year. It's not hard to figure out that if someone is driving a newer Cadillac that you now have their DR number, address, name, DOB that they are a better target for identity theft than a guy in a 84 Reliant K-car.

Going back to the original post. While it's true that using you call sign does in fact identify you, so do your license plates. And while I don't believe that most conversations are going to open you up to a situation that could be either dangerous or result in being robbed while you aren't home, a bit of operational security is always a good idea. Things like not discussing a vacation trip you are PLANNING to take with others prior to your departure and return. I would never tell anyone over the air that I was going on vacation for any amount of time, unless I am planning on staying home. I don't discuss any departure or arrival times for even going to work. Not that I don't trust the people I talk to on the radio, but I am NOT just talking to them. Anyone with a radio or scanner can hear what's being said, and can act on that information. I do have a tendency to discuss the security camera's at the house, and the fact that there are multiple DVR's and I get alerts on my phone when a camera is tripped due to motion. I don't discuss actual camera locations, overlaps of coverage or weaknesses. Any discussions are typically about adding additional camera's. Which is a deterrent alone. But 'opsec' which is operational security said in a real cool way, is really nothing more than sitting and considering what you can and can't say / advertise about your day to day life. And the dumb stuff like getting the mail and newspaper delivery stopped when out of town falls into that opsec stuff. And it's a good idea to have that conversation with your wife and kids. We can't block anyone and everyone from knowing our vacations and travel plans. The work place makes it really hard to keep all that quiet. The bosses will want to know what's happening, and while you can avoid saying much, saying too little can be detrimental as well. And telling them outright that you aren't going to discuss your travel plans will only put them on edge. Mostly because it's not 'normal' to not brag about taking a cruise or going to Disney or similar far away attraction. But don't concern yourself with the idea that criminals are sitting around a GMRS radio waiting on someone to announce they are going away on vacation to go rob their house.

Maybe YOU should read what you wrote. I never implied that 30Mhz and below would NOT reflect. I did say that about anything over 100 would NOT reflect off the ionosphere however. Which is basically what this post says. And is correct. You said that VHF maritime radio would reflect, you never mentioned HF marine radio. If you ever operated Sporadic-E you know that it opens for a few minutes at the longest and then fades. It's not a consistent method of communications. Yes, this is an exception to the normal rule that frequencies above 100 Mhz pass through the ionosphere. Just like there were 10 meter (29Mhz) downlinks on some ham satellites. Of course they worked better when the sun spot cycle was in a null and the MUF for DX never got above the 15 meter band.

OK, Marine VHF is at 160Mhz. I said that hams use 145 Mhz which talks right through the Ionosphere to satellites. No reflection. Try to be nice, Nope. Ain't your BUD, so here it is straight. Anything ABOVE 100 Mhz for certain and most anything above 30 Mhz will NOT reflect off the Ionosphere. Which is what you said, which is incorrect. SO VHF TV on any of the upper channels and mostly on the lower VHF channels doesn't skip, reflect, DX or whatever you were referencing. Marine VHF also doesn't do that. Hence the reason that HF comms were required on ships over a certain tonnage by maritime regulation. And the reason that we had MORSE CODE requirements in ham radio for the amount of tie we did. Now that GPS and satellite systems are in place and required on ships, the HF radio requirement is gone. And BTW. When TV went digital, it quit being VHF all together. There are no VHF (below 300Mhz) TV channel allocations any more. https://www.antennasdirect.com/hdtv-station-list.html Look at the list and it will show the station channels are NOT where the claim to be and instead have moved to the UHF band and only claim to be on the original analog channel position. Bud

Not sure that's right. Part of analog VHF TV was below 100Mhz, but went as high as 210 Mhz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_channel_frequencies But, satellite communications are done, at least with ham radio, at 145Mhz. Now, there isn't much satellite happening below that, and the reason is the reflection. But low powered handheld radios with modest gain antenna's are used with great success at 145Mhz. So there isn't much 'skip' happening on the upper portions of VHF. TV signals are NOT a good measure of coverage distance, reason being is thousand foot towers and 100KW plus ERP's. You can't sit and have a discussion of GMRS or ANY type of non-broadcast radio and compare it to TV or even AM /FM radio. The antenna heights and power levels are so much greater with commercial radio and TV stations that it's not even apples and oranges. Its apples and steak, or beer, NOTHING is similar when it comes to coverage. And broadcast anything is just that, broadcast. It's all one way. Now if you operate simplex (without a repeater) it's at least one way at a time RF, unlike a repeater that's listening to something and transmitting it somewhere else.

You shouldn't feel that way at all. There are some here that seem to relish in making derogatory or incendiary comments for no apparent reason. They fail to remember that folks that are new to radio may still be learning about radio technology and inquire about things that folks with 30 plus years of experience just take for granted. So again, welcome to radio and try to enjoy it's benefits, but like everything else, remember you might run into some individuals that aren't as friendly about it as others.

I am with the original poster. As a repeater owner, part of it is either listing the repeater as open and shutting off the requests, or checking the requests. The system does email repeater owners at their registered email address when a request comes in. So it's not like they aren't seeing it. If they have the function enabled for requests, then it would seem they want the requests. So they need to answer them in a timely manner. If they want the repeater listed but be private, to help eliminate interference, then it needs to be listed as such. But putting a repeater up, listing it on the site and then not bothering to answer requests is crap. If you don't have the time to do it, turn off the function or remove the listing. It's not rocket science. I understand that it cuts into your time. I had mine listed with requests for a while and after answering 200 something requests, I set the request function to off. It clearly states that requests are NOT needed and the PL for the repeater is accessible for any member of this board. It is open to all licensed GMRS users.

Couple things to point out. dBi and dBd are two different values. dBi is going to be 2.5dB less than dBd. Because the dBd "d" stands for dipole. Which has 2.5dB of gain above a isotropic radiator. Which is the 'i' in dBi. I don't own the Comet that others have talked about. The circles I run in and company I keep gets me DB-408's and DB-420's for my stuff. Those of course are the 2K dollar antenna's you mentioned. But a guy in Columbus put one up on his repeater and it was a night and day difference between the 6dBi antenna he got with the repeater and that one. It probably added 5 to 10 miles of range or better to his repeater, all other things being the same. No change in mount height. Now, be aware that you can have too much gain if you have a lot of height. The realized gain in an antenna is accomplished in moving the radiation pattern. Think about it like a 100 watt lightbulb. If the light is going all directions, at all angles, no specific direction or angle gets any more light then another. To create gain, an antenna take the unused light radiating up and down and points in to the horizon. The more this is done, the higher the gain. When you get the gain high enough, there isn't much radiation down. So with a bunch of height, you overshoot the signal where you want it to go. Mind you it requires a LOT of height. But if you are on a mountain, and get a super high gain antenna, the valley below will NOT see much if any signal. Just be aware of that.

Yep, understood. Went back and read your rules. Obviously I am NOT welcome.

And I am trying to start arguments. Right.

Never said there was a club. Situation was just a repeater that someone was charging access fee's for. Point is that if you are putting the money in your pocket and spending it on yourself, then you are profiting. If there is a 'club' that is established as you are indicating, and what I said applies, then it's embezzlement, because you are taking CLUB money and spending it on yourself. Either way YOU are profiting. Don't forget that a club needs to keep books for their money too. And all that stuff you mentioned has receipts that go into a ledger. And if the yearly income minus the years receipts don't equal the bank account then the money went somewhere. And if you are the only one handling the money, then it's on YOU to explain it. If you can't, then it's still a problem, legally. We're not discussing forensic accounting here. This is as simple as balancing a checkbook. I realize they don't teach that in school anymore. But it's not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

There you go again, trying to talk as if you know,,, when clearly it seems you DON'T. We OWN THE SITE. The tower, property, building, all of it. So ALL costs are the responsibility of the owner / business. Yes, it's now an LLC. That I donate a LOT of time to which pays my way to have access. I wired it, installed the generators, battery plants, provided thousands of feet of cable. Every repeater at the site in use outside the two county owned repeaters. That I support via the business I work for. There are no 'free' tower sites any more. At least not around here. Everything and every place that at one time was accessible because the engineer for the station, or the owners of the site were friendly to ham radio have all sold off or have put their sites under commercial tower management and they all want over a 1000 a month in rent. A civil engineering study done before you can even get a contract written and require one of their 'approved' tower contractors to do the work or installing the antenna and line. And of course since the new TIA-222 standard just went to I from H, most towers don't pass and you are responsible to have the tower reinforced to meet the standard with your additional loading. Cell companies don't care, A tower serves hundreds or possibly thousands of users. They are making lots of money and they see it as a business expense. When it's hobby radio, ham, GMRS or whatever, the numbers keep them off the towers.

Now, remember that this is coming from a guy that has an open repeater that covers 7 counties and REFUSES to take money because it's too much of a PITA to do so. YOU sir have NO idea what running a repeater actually costs. Outside of the 20 bucks a month your electric bill went up with your garage repeater that has a 5 mile range. Tower SITE.... 48K purchase price. Another 30K in electrical, roof, materials. 300 bucks a month in electric bill 200 a month in property taxes. A 300 dollar LIGHT BULB that has to be changed every 2 years. We change it ourselves or that would be a 3300 dollar light bulb. 300 for the bulb, 3000 to climb up and change it. Although at some point we will need to invest in a powered rope ascender that will 'pull' one of us up the tower when we are too old to physically climb the 230 foot ladder to access the light. Think battery drill powered winch. SO, paying 25 bucks a year, or even 10 bucks a month to access a repeater that has coverage in 7 counties is a STEAL as opposed to just the electric bill.