"Illegal" radios

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, NWHov said:

That also adds to my confusion about  "FCC" compliancy.  My UV-5RM came unlocked with the (7) 467 MHz (FRS) frequencies.  Why bother since it would be non compliant to use them on a radio with a removable antenna?  I can even change the power settings to comply to the .5 watts but that would still be a modification.

You’re misunderstanding the regulations. All of the FRS frequencies are also GMRS frequencies and may be used by GMRS radios as long as the regulations regarding power, bandwidth, and station type are obeyed. 
There’s nothing wrong with following the rules.

[NWHov]

Just now, WRYS709 said:

Like Mr Natural says: “Get the right tool for the job!”

Radioddity and Baofeng offer many budget priced certified radios for GMRS, FRS and MURS, as needed. 

My son has the Radioddity GM-30 which is most likely FCC certified for GMRS.  It has the factory locked GMRS frequencies which include those 467 MHz (FRS channel 8-14) frequencies.  But the antenna is still removable rendering it non-compliant to transmit on those frequencies.  I feel like I'm being egged on to run with scissors in my hand.

[WRYS709]

5 minutes ago, NWHov said:

My son has the Radioddity GM-30 which is most likely FCC certified for GMRS.  It has the factory locked GMRS frequencies which include those 467 MHz (FRS channel 8-14) frequencies.  But the antenna is still removable rendering it non-compliant to transmit on those frequencies.  I feel like I'm being egged on to run with scissors in my hand.

The GM-30 is certified for GMRS and so it satisfies FCC rules for GMRS. 

Yes if you get a specific tool and loosen the nut, the antenna can be removed; but this does not break certification. 

GMRS radios can have removable antennas. You are confusing FRS radio specs. 

GMRS HTs can transmit on Channels 8-14. 

[SteveShannon]

14 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Part 95.1761 seems to say if you had a radio certified for Part 90, for example, it would also be OK so long as it's programmed to comply with the rules for power, frequency, and bandwidth on GMRS. This is one where you can go down the rabbit hole over if that's the case.

Several years ago I had asked about old Part 90 VHF radios on MURS. Since some of those were certified before MURS was created so they could be grandfathered in, again so long as they were programmed to meet the frequency, power and bandwidth specifications.

For Ham gear there is no transmitter part certification so on the face of it such gear couldn't be used even in the gray zone of the rules.

 

I think it’s really saying that a radio may be made that’s certified for multiple services as long as it’s properly certified for each of those services and not capable of transmitting on non-certified services such as ham. So a radio could be certified for parts 90 and 95e and used for both by a properly licensed person. 

[UncleYoda]

6 minutes ago, NWHov said:

My son has the Radioddity GM-30 which is most likely FCC certified for GMRS.  It has the factory locked GMRS frequencies which include those 467 MHz (FRS channel 8-14) frequencies.  But the antenna is still removable rendering it non-compliant to transmit on those frequencies.  I feel like I'm being egged on to run with scissors in my hand.

GM-30 is a GMRS certified version (TYT UV-88 was HAM version of same radio).

Ch 8-14 467MHz channels are part of GMRS too, same power limit.

[WRYS709]

Just now, UncleYoda said:

GM-30 is a GMRS certified version (TYT UV-88 was HAM version of same radio).

Ch 8-14 467MHz channels are part of GMRS too, same power limit.

Although it looks similar, the TYT UV-88 is not the same radio as the Radioddity GM-30. 

Channels 8-14 are not the same power limit as other GMRS or even FRS channels. Thay are specifically limited to .5 watt. 

[NWHov]

10 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

You’re misunderstanding the regulations. All of the FRS frequencies are also GMRS frequencies and may be used by GMRS radios as long as the regulations regarding power, bandwidth, and station type are obeyed. 
There’s nothing wrong with following the rules.

You are correct about my misunderstand of the regulations.  So if I have an FRS radio (station type) it must meet § 95.587 FRS (FCC subpart B ) requirements?  But if I have a GMRS radio (station type) I can use those (FRS/ 467 MHz frequencies) under GMRS (FCC subpart A) requirements which allow for that radio with removable antenna?

 

[WRUE951]

44 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Part 95.1761 seems to say if you had a radio certified for Part 90, for example, it would also be OK so long as it's programmed to comply with the rules for power, frequency, and bandwidth on GMRS. This is one where you can go down the rabbit hole over if that's the case.

Several years ago I had asked about old Part 90 VHF radios on MURS. Since some of those were certified before MURS was created so they could be grandfathered in, again so long as they were programmed to meet the frequency, power and bandwidth specifications.

For Ham gear there is no transmitter part certification so on the face of it such gear couldn't be used even in the gray zone of the rules.

 

so, if one programs a commercial business radio, meeting Part 80 & Part 90, to GMRS  Channels to their perspective power & frequency specs and locks the radio in the CPM programing so no radio adjustments can alter these settings, then you have a legal GMRS radio.. But once you program other XTMT frequencies outside the GMRS Band, you radio is now illegal  for GMRS use.  This is why many HAMS use Business class radios for repeaters.. As long as these Part 80 & 90 class radios are programed strictly for GMRS to spec, they are legal to use. 

[SteveShannon]

13 minutes ago, NWHov said:

You are correct about my misunderstand of the regulations.  So if I have an FRS radio (station type) it must meet § 95.587 FRS (FCC subpart B ) requirements?  But if I have a GMRS radio (station type) I can use those (FRS/ 467 MHz frequencies) under GMRS (FCC subpart A) requirements which allow for that radio with removable antenna?

 

Correct, except GMRS is subpart E.

Also, a GMRS radio which transmits data  are required to have a non-removable antenna and may not transmit the data through a repeater. 

[WRYS709]

19 minutes ago, NWHov said:

You are correct about my misunderstand of the regulations.  So if I have an FRS radio (station type) it must meet § 95.587 FRS (FCC subpart B ) requirements?  But if I have a GMRS radio (station type) I can use those (FRS/ 467 MHz frequencies) under GMRS (FCC subpart A) requirements which allow for that radio with removable antenna?

 

If you’re specifically interested in Channels 8-14; only certified HTs can transmit on these channels. Not mobiles, for example. 

[NWHov]

2 minutes ago, WRYS709 said:

If you’re specifically interested in Channels 8-14; only certified HTs can transmit on these channels. Not mobiles, for example. 

Ok.  No specific interest.  I actually have a set of Midland LXT-600 (FRS) radios.  They are pretty useless.  Used them once when moving as a travel channel between me driving the truck and wife following in car.  I could still see my wife in mirrors behind me and the static was so scratchy she became unreadable until she was the vehicle right behind me.  That's why I became more interested in GMRS.

[WRYS709]

3 minutes ago, NWHov said:

Ok.  No specific interest.  I actually have a set of Midland LXT-600 (FRS) radios.  They are pretty useless.  Used them once when moving as a travel channel between me driving the truck and wife following in car.  I could still see my wife in mirrors behind me and the static was so scratchy she became unreadable until she was the vehicle right behind me.  That's why I became more interested in GMRS.

5 watts vs 2 and optionally external antennas on your vehicles will make a big difference. 

And of course your GMRS license extends to other certain family members. 

I often read many complaints about Midland radios on this forum and they seem to be overpriced 

[WRYS709]

Also check out the Radioddity DB20-G a/k/a Anytone AT-779UV mini-mobile: 20 watts, mic controls, cigarette lighter plug, $99-$109

Add a $20 mag-mount antenna and Amazon cup-holder mount and it easily installs/uninstalls in your vehicles. 

[UncleYoda]

1 hour ago, NWHov said:

... under GMRS (FCC subpart A) requirements which allow for that radio with removable antenna?

A was the old GMRS section; it's Subpart E now.  Yes on the antenna, but the requirement is radiated power (ERP), which includes gain from the antenna.  So stick with sorry original stubby "rubber duck" antenna for that.

[NWHov]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

Do you have an Amazon page link for the model and vendor you have?  (I don't use eBay anymore.)

On the power issue, that's questionable; low power is likely more than 0.5W, but it also varies by frequency.  I think 220 was the lowest. (There's a post on here somewhere that gives their test results.)

Here is the Amazon link. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0D7PYT1XS/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A3ND7E64AZOQU8&psc=1

It does call it a HAM radio in the title, but farther down in the description it says "Connectivity Protocol - GMRS".  If interested, I attached the .img file to upload to CHIRP to see what the frequencies plan looked like when I first opened it up out of the box.  

Frequencies originally programmed on Baofeng radio.img

[UncleYoda]

Yes, I see what it says.  Chinese vendors (never heard of that one like many others) don't understand English very well or the FCC regs.  Just get some more GM-30s from Radioddity.  [I don't need the Chirp file because they obviously messed it up.]

[WRYS709]

Additionally the GM-30 is now supported by Chirp

https://chirpmyradio.com/issues/9237

 

[nokones]

2 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

so, if one programs a commercial business radio, meeting Part 80 & Part 90, to GMRS  Channels to their perspective power & frequency specs and locks the radio in the CPM programing so no radio adjustments can alter these settings, then you have a legal GMRS radio.. But once you program other XTMT frequencies outside the GMRS Band, you radio is now illegal  for GMRS use.  This is why many HAMS use Business class radios for repeaters.. As long as these Part 80 & 90 class radios are programed strictly for GMRS to spec, they are legal to use. 

Pursuant to Part 95.335(a) - "non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated". This means a Part 90 certified radio programmed with Part 90 and Part 95 freqs may be operated/used as long as the radio operates within the power, bandwidth, freq accuracy, and emissions specs of the Part 95 rules for the freq being transmitted by the Part 90 radio.

Just in case you do not know, Land Mobile Radio Service (LMR) is Part 90.

[UncleYoda]

You didn't quote the whole text of (a), which does make a difference.

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or
transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions
applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific
service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735.

735 is for Remote Control Radio Service.

1735 is GMRS but it's blank (reserved).  I'd say that means no exceptions, unless it's hiding somewhere else.

[NWHov]

2 hours ago, WRYS709 said:

Additionally the GM-30 is now supported by Chirp

https://chirpmyradio.com/issues/9237

 

I am thinking to go lugit and get the GM-30 plus.  Some of the recent reviews dog it because it is not supported by CHIRP.  I opened your link and can not figure it out.  Is there a CHIRP update that supports the the GM-30 or did someone just figure out a different profile that works?

[WRYS709]

7 minutes ago, NWHov said:

I am thinking to go lugit and get the GM-30 plus.  Some of the recent reviews dog it because it is not supported by CHIRP.  I opened your link and can not figure it out.  Is there a CHIRP update that supports the the GM-30 or did someone just figure out a different profile that works?

Do you have the older GM 30 or the newer GM-30Plus?

[amaff]

3 hours ago, NWHov said:

It does call it a HAM radio in the title, but farther down in the description it says "Connectivity Protocol - GMRS". 

It also has a Special Feature, so you've got that going for you!

[NWHov]

1 hour ago, WRYS709 said:

Do you have the older GM 30 or the newer GM-30Plus?

The older GM-30.

[nokones]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

You didn't quote the whole text of (a), which does make a difference.

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or
transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions
applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific
service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735.

735 is for Remote Control Radio Service.

1735 is GMRS but it's blank (reserved).  I'd say that means no exceptions, unless it's hiding somewhere else.

Those "certain exceptions" are the power levels, bandwidth, allocated frequencies, frequency accuracy and stability, and emission types as listed in each Subpart for applicable frequency being operated. Those rules/regulations are the certain exceptions.

In other words, you can operate your Part 90 type-accepted radios on 462.5625 MHz with certain exceptions. Those certain exceptions are: if you do not posses a GMRS license, you are regulated to narrowband emissions and at 2 watts ERP pursuant to Part 95, Subpart B; and if you do posses a GMRS license than you may use either narrowband or wideband emissions and not exceed 5 watts ERP pursuant to Part 95, Subpart E.  And if you operate on 154.600 MHz, you will be regulated to the aforementioned exceptions in Part 95, Subpart J. There, those are your "certain exceptions"

Yes, there are references to Rules 95.735 & 95.1735 in Part 95.335(a) however, they are only references, and not the context of the subject rule, did you notice the "e.g."? Do you know what the "e.g." means when used?

Part 95.1735 was an old rule that more than likely existed prior to the 2017 rewritten/reorganization of Part 95 rules. Obviously, the reference of 95.1735 has been overlooked in 95.335(a) in the editing process since it no longer exist.

You said, there are "No Exceptions". Where does it say "No Exceptions", it says under certain exceptions and those certain exceptions are stated in each subpart in respect to the frequency being used pursuant to the respective subpart. 

[UncleYoda]

There aren't any exceptions specified in GMRS Subpart E for LMR/Part 90.  The things you list do not authorize other services; they are just limitations on GMRS.  The examples given are references for 2 selected services, not all services in Part 95, that's why it's e.g.  There's nothing I can do to make anyone understand what the wording means - you either get it right or you don't.