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Improving SWR by using a lossy cable


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I have a covered deck off my house right beside the radio room. The crossbeams are 8' off the floor and the peak of the roof is 6' above the crossbeam. I got the idea to put an antenna on one of the crossbeams so that during storms, I can unplug from the "outdoor" 36' antenna and use the "indoor" deck antenna to reduce the likelihood of lightning damage. I was using a mag-mount mobile antenna on a 16" pizza plate and running the 16' RG58 coax through the corner of the door frame into the house and it worked great. Using a Comet 2x4SR NMO antenna, I got excellent SWRs and good tx/rx on GMRS, 2 meters, 70 centimeters, and (somewhat surprisingly) 1.25 meters. 

This week, I decided to do a more permanent installation. I built a 36" x 36" platform which I covered with aluminum and mounted on one of the crossbeams. I installed an NMO connector and ran 25' of KMR400 coax to my window pass-through panel. When I hooked up the NanoVNA, to my dismay, SWR on GMRS was 3.0+, 1.25m was 2.75+, and MURS was 3.0+. SWRs on 2m and 70cm were ~1.2:1. It's probably worth noting that these are the two bands the antenna is actually designed to operate in. I screwed the antenna back onto the mag-mount, placed the mount in the center of the platform, and retested. All the SWRs were back well below 2.0:1. The ground plane remained the same, so the only things which might account for the difference were the connector and the coaxial cable. 

It's known that a lossy cable will often result in a lower measured SWR because any RF energy lost in the cable won't be reflected back to the radio. However, a lossy cable will also result in a reduction in RF output from the antenna, so we typically avoid using it, if possible, but that doesn't mean you can't or even shouldn't use it, depending upon the circumstances. My concern about high SWRs is the possibility of the reflected power damaging the radio. We could argue all day about how likely that is to happen, but I don't want to risk it.

I won't bore you with the details of the various cable combinations I tested, but I found that with 25' of RG8X from the antenna to the window pass-through and 6' of RG8X from the pass-through connector to the radio, all the SWRs were below 2.0:1. The SWR on 467 MHz improved even more using RG58, but "good enough" is a valid concept and I stuck with the RG8X. 

So what about loss of signal strength? Well, a little context is important here. The 2m and 70cm repeaters I'd most want to reach during severe weather -- the ones which host the local ham severe weather nets -- can be reached from my yard with a 5 watt HT. The two GMRS repeaters nearest me can be reliably reached from my yard with 10 watts. My base radio is capable of up to 50 watts, but I usually run it on ~12 watts (measured). My backup unit (should I decide to use it) outputs a measured 20-27 watts depending upon the frequency. The reported gain of the Comet 2x4SR antenna is 6.2 dBi (4.05 dBd) on UHF and 3.8 dBi (1.65 dBd) on VHF. Using an SWR of 2.0:1 (worst-case scenario, since they're all actually at least a little better than that), 20 watts of RF output, and 31' of RG8X, plugging the numbers into a coax loss calculator gives me an effective radiated power of 42.1 watts on 467 MHz and 24.3 watts on 146 MHz; more than enough power for what I want to accomplish.

This is kind of long, but the point is that intentionally using a lossy cable made it feasible to use a single antenna to cover all the bands I'm interested in. The RG8X is lossy, but running the numbers shows that it won't drop the ERP below what I actually need. Caveat: Yes, I know getting a good SWR doesn't mean the antenna will actually function well on a given frequency. I had this antenna on my car for several months and I know it performs well on GMRS, 70cm, 1.25m, and 2m because I verified it in real-world use. Using a lossy cable to improve SWR won't make the antenna tx/rx effectively in a frequency band where it didn't work before, but it will make it possible to use it without concern for my radio.

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Posted
1 hour ago, WRTC928 said:

I have a covered deck off my house right beside the radio room. The crossbeams are 8' off the floor and the peak of the roof is 6' above the crossbeam. I got the idea to put an antenna on one of the crossbeams so that during storms, I can unplug from the "outdoor" 36' antenna and use the "indoor" deck antenna to reduce the likelihood of lightning damage. I was using a mag-mount mobile antenna on a 16" pizza plate and running the 16' RG58 coax through the corner of the door frame into the house and it worked great. Using a Comet 2x4SR NMO antenna, I got excellent SWRs and good tx/rx on GMRS, 2 meters, 70 centimeters, and (somewhat surprisingly) 1.25 meters. 

This week, I decided to do a more permanent installation. I built a 36" x 36" platform which I covered with aluminum and mounted on one of the crossbeams. I installed an NMO connector and ran 25' of KMR400 coax to my window pass-through panel. When I hooked up the NanoVNA, to my dismay, SWR on GMRS was 3.0+, 1.25m was 2.75+, and MURS was 3.0+. SWRs on 2m and 70cm were ~1.2:1. It's probably worth noting that these are the two bands the antenna is actually designed to operate in. I screwed the antenna back onto the mag-mount, placed the mount in the center of the platform, and retested. All the SWRs were back well below 2.0:1. The ground plane remained the same, so the only things which might account for the difference were the connector and the coaxial cable. 

It's known that a lossy cable will often result in a lower measured SWR because any RF energy lost in the cable won't be reflected back to the radio. However, a lossy cable will also result in a reduction in RF output from the antenna, so we typically avoid using it, if possible, but that doesn't mean you can't or even shouldn't use it, depending upon the circumstances. My concern about high SWRs is the possibility of the reflected power damaging the radio. We could argue all day about how likely that is to happen, but I don't want to risk it.

I won't bore you with the details of the various cable combinations I tested, but I found that with 25' of RG8X from the antenna to the window pass-through and 6' of RG8X from the pass-through connector to the radio, all the SWRs were below 2.0:1. The SWR on 467 MHz improved even more using RG58, but "good enough" is a valid concept and I stuck with the RG8X. 

So what about loss of signal strength? Well, a little context is important here. The 2m and 70cm repeaters I'd most want to reach during severe weather -- the ones which host the local ham severe weather nets -- can be reached from my yard with a 5 watt HT. The two GMRS repeaters nearest me can be reliably reached from my yard with 10 watts. My base radio is capable of up to 50 watts, but I usually run it on ~12 watts (measured). My backup unit (should I decide to use it) outputs a measured 20-27 watts depending upon the frequency. The reported gain of the Comet 2x4SR antenna is 6.2 dBi (4.05 dBd) on UHF and 3.8 dBi (1.65 dBd) on VHF. Using an SWR of 2.0:1 (worst-case scenario, since they're all actually at least a little better than that), 20 watts of RF output, and 31' of RG8X, plugging the numbers into a coax loss calculator gives me an effective radiated power of 42.1 watts on 467 MHz and 24.3 watts on 146 MHz; more than enough power for what I want to accomplish.

This is kind of long, but the point is that intentionally using a lossy cable made it feasible to use a single antenna to cover all the bands I'm interested in. The RG8X is lossy, but running the numbers shows that it won't drop the ERP below what I actually need. Caveat: Yes, I know getting a good SWR doesn't mean the antenna will actually function well on a given frequency. I had this antenna on my car for several months and I know it performs well on GMRS, 70cm, 1.25m, and 2m because I verified it in real-world use. Using a lossy cable to improve SWR won't make the antenna tx/rx effectively in a frequency band where it didn't work before, but it will make it possible to use it without concern for my radio.

RG8 is not a good choice for UHF..   Dual band antennas are a pain.  I've never gotten one tuned out of the package and they are no fun to tune.   Using a Nano VNA will make life a whole lot easier tunning antennas.   Also the placement of the antenna near other  objects will effect your antenna tune.. Tune the antenna in optimal arrangement, i.e. 8-10' off the ground level and 20' away from objects and use those tune numbers for a base to know what to expect on your final install point..  

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Posted
1 hour ago, WRUE951 said:

RG8 is not a good choice for UHF..   Dual band antennas are a pain.  I've never gotten one tuned out of the package and they are no fun to tune.   Using a Nano VNA will make life a whole lot easier tunning antennas.   Also the placement of the antenna near other  objects will effect your antenna tune.. Tune the antenna in optimal arrangement, i.e. 8-10' off the ground level and 20' away from objects and use those tune numbers for a base to know what to expect on your final install point..  

Did you even read what I wrote? This is a special-purpose antenna for occasional use. If RG8 gives me enough RF output to accomplish what I want, it's a good choice. Furthermore, I did use a NanoVNA; that's how I got the readings. And, as I said, the antenna is 8' off the ground. There's nothing within 20' except the roof of the deck. That is the final install point. 

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Posted
4 hours ago, WRTC928 said:

Did you even read what I wrote? This is a special-purpose antenna for occasional use. If RG8 gives me enough RF output to accomplish what I want, it's a good choice. Furthermore, I did use a NanoVNA; that's how I got the readings. And, as I said, the antenna is 8' off the ground. There's nothing within 20' except the roof of the deck. That is the final install point. 

i gotta admait,  i skimmed thgough the book you wrote - mistake..    if you are happy with your setup,,  your happy.  ENJOY........

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Posted

Using a lossy cable to manage how much power re-enters your radio as a result of reflection from a poorly tuned antenna will work to protect your radio. Nobody can dispute that. 
But it’s like driving with your parking brake on to keep from speeding.
You’re decreasing the power that reaches the antenna. The perceived lower SWR does not allow the antenna to radiate more as if it were better tuned. If you measure the actual SWR and power delivery at the antenna feed point you can see how much power is actually radiating. 
You could accomplish the same thing by simply turning your power down and using a better cable and even better yet tune the antenna.

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Posted
2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

You’re decreasing the power that reaches the antenna. The perceived lower SWR does not allow the antenna to radiate more as if it were better tuned. If you measure the actual SWR and power delivery at the antenna feed point you can see how much power is actually radiating. 
You could accomplish the same thing by simply turning your power down and using a better cable and even better yet tune the antenna.

Yes, I acknowledged that. But the degree to which you can actually tune a CA2x4 is extremely limited. I could, of course, buy a different, more tunable, antenna for $150 instead of using the one I already have. I could even go with a true base antenna, if I could find one that meets my requirements and is less than 6' tall, but could I tune it to work acceptably on GMRS, 2 meters, 1.25 meters, and 70 centimeters with KMR400 coax? Unlikely, so I'm back to square one. I did this with things I had on hand and didn't have to buy anything new. 

Decreasing the power that reaches the antenna only matters if you need that much power. I only need to get about 10 watts out of the antenna and I'm getting several times that. Transmit power only matters if it falls below the amount of power you need to reach the other radio. Having a more efficient system wouldn't gain me anything; I'd reach the same repeaters I do now. I could reach everything I want with a 10 watt HT if I were willing to stand outside the house during a storm, but from inside the house, I can't reliably hit the repeaters, especially during stormy weather. This a case in which the radio nerd obsession with getting as much power to the antenna as possible just doesn't make sense.

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Posted
2 hours ago, WRTC928 said:

This a case in which the radio nerd obsession with getting as much power to the antenna as possible just doesn't make sense.

I agree; that’s why I suggested running at a lower power output with the better cable.  The result should be the same.  The reflected power to the radio will still be low but the radio will work cooler because it’s transmitting at a lower output power. 

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Posted

First, I am still trying to get the excess blood out of my caffeine system this morning.

I did not see any description of the deck roof itself. I could have missed it though. So a few questions

How high is the peak (if a hip roof)?

What is the roof material, asphalt shingles or metal?

Are there any electrical wires or other metal objects near the antenna?

The reason I ask is all of that can affect SWR to some extent. a metal roof, electrical wiring, or metal supports, etc close to the antenna will change the SWR.

I have two 2x4SR antennas on magnet mounts. One is on the center of my truck cab and the other is on the back rack of my SxS. They do fine with the standard 12-15 feet of RG58 that comes on most magnet mounts when it comes to SWR and power output .

Now here is the main reason I asked bout the structure and roof.

If I test the SWR on the 2x4SR on the SxS outside it is good. If I test SWR with the SxS parked in the garage, then the SWR is quite a bit higher on some bands. My garage has a low ceiling of 8 feet. And the top of the antenna is in the middle of the steel garage door track (4 feet to either side). The garage door tracks, door opener, low ceiling and electrical wiring in the ceiling is enough to change the SWR.

Your chosen location can definitely have an effect on the SWR.

As mentioned, a lossy cox cable will only mask a bad SWR at the antenna. And lossy coax affects both TX and RX. I fully understand your reasoning for placing the antenna where you did. But you might want to rethink that and try a different location. Maybe a hand rail or a table that won't blow away in a storm.

 

Now for the comment about using the 2x4SR on the 1.25m band. 

No the antenna was never designed to be used on the 1.25m band. But many of us have found that the SWR is below 2 on the band and quite usable. Th SWR on both of my 2x4SR antennas is 1.7 and below on 2m, 12.5m, MURS, 70cm, and GMRS. I did not test the VHF public safety frequencies since I have no reason to ever transmit on those. Though I do know guys that work for the ambulance district that do run the 2x4SR on public safety frequencies without an issue.

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Posted
12 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Using a lossy cable to manage how much power re-enters your radio as a result of reflection from a poorly tuned antenna will work to protect your radio. Nobody can dispute that. 
But it’s like driving with your parking brake on to keep from speeding.
You’re decreasing the power that reaches the antenna. The perceived lower SWR does not allow the antenna to radiate more as if it were better tuned. If you measure the actual SWR and power delivery at the antenna feed point you can see how much power is actually radiating. 
You could accomplish the same thing by simply turning your power down and using a better cable and even better yet tune the antenna.

perfect analogy  

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Posted
7 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

I agree; that’s why I suggested running at a lower power output with the better cable.  The result should be the same.  The reflected power to the radio will still be low but the radio will work cooler because it’s transmitting at a lower output power. 

Hmmm...okay...I think I'm starting to follow you now. 🤔 I already run at a pretty low power and it might not be an issue. How would I test that? If the NanoVNA shows a given SWR, it doesn't account for different levels of power, does it? If I use a SW-102 on the antenna end, will it give me that information? How would I interpret the results?

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Posted
On 10/12/2025 at 8:57 AM, WRTC928 said:

Hmmm...okay...I think I'm starting to follow you now. 🤔 I already run at a pretty low power and it might not be an issue. How would I test that? If the NanoVNA shows a given SWR, it doesn't account for different levels of power, does it? If I use a SW-102 on the antenna end, will it give me that information? How would I interpret the results?

Yes, the SW-102 will tell you that information, but you’ll have to take readings at both ends of the cable to know exactly how much is being fed into the antenna and how much is reflecting into the radio.  The sw-102 will report the actual (within whatever accuracy it has) SWR of the antenna when connected at the feed point of the antenna.  It will also report your forward power at the antenna (which can be compared to the power leaving the radio) tell you exactly how much you attenuated in the cable and reflected power but you’ll need to have someone watching it while you’re transmitting at the other end of the cable.

Then, running with the sw-102 at the radio end of the coax will inform you of the power at the radio end (which should be whatever the radio actually puts out) and the reflected power that actually makes it back to the radio after attenuation. 
 

I would record SWR, total power, forward power, and reflected power at both of the two points.  I would also record the SWR at the antenna; it’s the real antenna SWR.  The SWR measurement at the radio is false with respect to the antenna (as you already understand), a value that reflects a ratio between the real output power before attenuation and the power that is an attenuated reflection of the power that was attenuated on its forward journey, but it does reflect the system and depending on your radio it could be used internally for ALC to fold back the RF output and protect the radio’s final output transistors.

The numbers you’re ultimately looking at are the forward power reading measured at the antenna and the reflected power reading measured at the radio.  Take those readings with each of the two different coax cables and at each of the available power settings and compare them to see which cable delivers a good enough forward power to the antenna while resulting in the lowest reflected power measured at the radio.

You could do this for all bands, but if you want to save time just do it for the bands that have the worst SWR.

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Posted
1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Yes, the SW-102 will tell you that information, but you’ll have to take readings at both ends of the cable to know exactly how much is being fed into the antenna and how much is reflecting into the radio.  The sw-102 will report the actual (within whatever accuracy it has) SWR of the antenna when connected at the feed point of the antenna.  It will also report your forward power at the antenna (which can be compared to the power leaving the radio) tell you exactly how much you attenuated in the cable and reflected power but you’ll need to have someone watching it while you’re transmitting at the other end of the cable.

Then, running with the sw-102 at the radio end of the coax will inform you of the power at the radio end (which should be whatever the radio actually puts out) and the reflected power that actually makes it back to the radio after attenuation. 
 

I would record SWR, total power, forward power, and reflected power at both of the two points.  I would also record the SWR at the antenna; it’s the real antenna SWR.  The SWR measurement at the radio is false with respect to the antenna (as you already understand), a value that reflects a ratio between the real output power before attenuation and the power that is an attenuated reflection of the power that was attenuated on its forward journey, but it does reflect the system and depending on your radio it could be used internally for ALC to fold back the RF output and protect the radio’s final output transistors.

The numbers you’re ultimately looking at at the forward power reading measured at the antenna and the reflected power reading measured at the radio.  Take those readings with each of the two different coax cables and at each of the available power settings and compare them to see which cable delivers a good enough forward power to the antenna while resulting in the lowest reflected power measured at the radio.

You could do this for all bands, but if you want to save time just do it for the bands that have the worst SWR.

Ah, okay. Now I understand. Thank you!

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Posted

Ultimately, I decided I didn't care about the 1.25 meter band in my emergency-use case. I ended up with a Diamond SG7900 antenna with 25' of KMR400 from the antenna to the window pass-through and 25' of RG58 from the pass-through to the radio. That gave me SWRs below 2.0:1 in the GMRS, 2m, and 70cm bands. The SG7900 is a pretty good antenna. I can talk to a 2 meter repeater 30 miles away and a GMRS repeater 25 miles away with it, as well as my clubs repeaters, so I'm satisfied with the performance of my setup.

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