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The definitive CCR thread... why you won't really save anything.


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#21 gman1971

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 06:46 AM

I am glad you're happy with the GD77s, but if you really want to see mind-blowing performance then you should get yourself a pair of XPR7550e and see...

 

Also, if you are using the GD77s on DMR then it is not legal. GMRS is FM ONLY. Also, to be 100% compliant then you should be using 20 kHz wideband, and because I know that the GD77s won't do 20 kHz, then you should be using 12.5 kHz instead. If you're using 25 kHz then it is not legal either.

 

You speak like people here in the forum don't know what they are talking about, they are called CCR for a reason. Don't mislead people, dude, grocery store could be 1/2 miles away from home. That is hardly mind-blowing. One radio sitting on a 10 floor building to ground level, not really mind blowing either. I've reached 30 miles using a 2W VHF MURS Ritron portable... does that mean the performance was mind-blowing? Certainly not, why? b/c the receiving radio (a TYT8000E with crossband repeat) was strapped to a drone flying some hundred feet up in the air in the middle of nowhere.

 

Also, for the GD77S, at 75 dollars a pop you are being ripped off, man. If you want cheap, try the Baofeng DM-V1, which is basically a GD77s, except its 25-29 dollars a pop. The DM-V1 will also do DMR if you really want to have DMR (not legal in GMRS). Then there is the Baofeng BF-1801, 45 dollars a pop and its a GD77 clone, with a REAL screen. However, at the price you paid for those overpriced CCRs you could've bought a TYT MD380 UHF (single band, not the dual band), with a color screen and, IIRC a real superheterodyne receiver too... and have a better than mind-blowing performance over the GD77S... I think paying 77 bucks for a CCR without a screen is a ripoff, fortunately tho, it is great to know that, at least, the performance is mind-blowing. You could've achieved the same kind of mind-blowing performance with a pair of BF-888S, except for 18 dollars, and have enough cash left to purchase a used Vertex Standard EVX-531 on eBay, maybe 2 if you look hard enough.(since you seem to like no-screen DMR capable radios)

 

Also, I didn't make this post b/c I am brand name snob that just wants to bash on CCRs for the heck of it, so, without further delay let me introduce you to my extensive CCR collection, and the reason why I made this post.

 

-15 BF-888S, yep, at 9 dollars a piece, they work great for my house intercom, and if anybody destroys one, guests kids, anybody, be it by throwing it the toilet, smashing it with a hammer, etc, etc, won't be crying over it. Receiver on those is BETTER than the GD77s.

-10 Baofeng BF-1801, basically a GD77 clone. Those work great as intercoms on both DMR and FM with the signaling stuff.

-5 Baofeng DM-V1 (which is basically a GD77s, but UHF only, can be modded to do VHF, but haven't tried to do that) Great for store floor intercom, and at 25-29 bucks a pop, its hard to argue with that.

-2 GD77, I got ripped off twice before I found out that the Baofeng BF-1801 was the same radio, at HALF the price. The GD77 is a ripoff, get the BF-1801 instead.

-4 Alinco DJ-MD5 DMR/GPS. Not exactly a CCR at 189 a piece, but these are usually our carry around radios, one for each member of the family (old enough to use a radio) Good balance between features and RF performance, for the price, of course.

-5 Baofeng GT-3, (3 dead now) those were the radios that got me into FRS then into GMRS.

-4 TYT 8000E.

-1 Anytone INSTG8R

 

Forgot to state what I no longer own but that was also extensively tested.

-1 Retevis RT52, one of the worst, if not the worst radio front end I've ever benched, returned.

-3 Anytone 878UV. Too big, I liked the Alinco MD5 beter, returned them all.

-2 UV-5R. All dead.

-2 UV-82. Gave them to friends.

-2 UV-3R. All dead.

-Ailunce HD1. Very poor performance, returned.

 

I've tested all these radios in nearly every possible scenario you can think of, with several types of ducks, high gain antena, etc, and with the exception of the Alinco DJ-MD5/Anytone 878 (which seems to have better front-end filtering that all those CCRs) none of these radios can compete in terms of range and overall performance to my commercial grade gear, especially when operated in crowded RF areas, which is pretty much anywhere where computers operate these days. Inside a mall the difference is night and day.

 

 

G.

 

 

Believe it or not, the GD-77S is my favorite radio at the moment.  It solves practical problems by slinging squiggles, and it's even type-accepted as a business radio (No FPP).  As such, it qualifies as the "surplus commercial equipment" that the 2017 memorandum stated was never intended to be banished from the GMRS, and I believe it's legal under the latest regulations.

 

And at five watts, it's my most powerful cheap squiggle-slinger.  Used with Motorola gear (2W) on both high and low (1W), it's absolutely comprehensible in two directions when cell phones aren't getting enough signal to send a text message.

 

Is it "good"?  Apparently not.  Is it good enough?  For me and those like me, yeah it is.  (And if it gets dropped, I didn't just break irreplaceable hardware!)

 

Edited to add:  And at 5w back and forth, it'll reach from handie to handie all the way to our grocery store, and inside too.  As far as I'm concerned, that performance is mind-blowing.


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#22 n4gix

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 01:08 PM

Also, for the GD77S, at 75 dollars a pop you are being ripped off, man. If you want cheap, try the Baofeng DM-V1, which is basically a GD77s, except its 25-29 dollars a pop. The DM-V1 will also do DMR if you really want to have DMR (not legal in GMRS). Then there is the Baofeng BF-1801, 45 dollars a pop and its a GD77 clone, with a REAL screen.

Since when did they remove the screen from the GD-77? I just looked at mine and the screen is still there... smile.png

I'll agree that the GD-77 is a complete piece of sub-standard parts, as is the TYT MD-2017 with its stupid trackball. My HD-1 is my second favorite HT at the moment, with the AT-878 currently in the #1 spot.

While I do love my XPR-7550 (not e model), I haven't actually carried it in over a year.

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#23 gman1971

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 05:53 PM

He meant the GD77 S, the S model has no screen, and that is an overpriced CCR. The BF-1801 (with screen, a GD77 clone) has its place: its a cheap intercom radio for short range comms.

 

https://www.anyradio...al-Analog-4.jpg

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

 

I understand, I carry an Alinco MD5, which is basically a small 878, I like having the dual band option, even though I am not a ham, I have pretty much every single ham FM repeater in Wisconsin punched in the radio, in case I ever need help, or in an emergency. Most of these no screen radios are kinda limited for anything beyond store floor intercom (which is what they are designed to do, anyways)

 

There is a noticeable difference in Receiver performance between tne XPR7550 and the XPR7550e. I don't carry one b/c I don't have one, yet. Aside from the price tag, you're boxed in a band, either VHF or UHF... can't do anything to convert... at least I haven't taken one apart to see what makes these radios different... if its a software (firmware) thing, or a physical hardware change.

 

G.


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#24 gman1971

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 06:39 PM

Also, my primary GMRS long range link is all done using Vertex Standard commercial gear. As I've quickly (and expensively) realized, sticking anything UHF non-commercial grade to the Diamond X50C2 (a 7.2 dBd UHF gain vertical antenna) immediately blanked out, desensed, the receiver due to the massive RFI coming from the 1400-foot Candelabra tower that is less than 2 miles from my house... None of those CCRs has afforded me more than ~2 miles range (except the MD5, which is an improvement, but at 189 a pop, its hardly a CCR), no matter what kind of antenna or how high it was placed, even with a couple of 100 dollar cavities... these CCRs couldn't hear squat, not even the NOAA stations, except for the one at 162.550, which is coming from the 1400-tower 2 miles from home. When you want real range, measured in tens of miles (rather than tenths of an inch), range that works reliably, its time to save up and get a real Motorola/Vertex/Kenwood/Icom radio.

 

Now, if your aspirations are to reach the grocery store down the street, awesome, a CCR might be enough. But when I hear guys like @marcspaz talking about how he was chatting with guys over Spain from the US over HF radio, that IS mind-blowing... grocery store? not so much, man. Maybe it was mind-blowing back when Marconi invented the radio... nowadays? the bottom of the barrel BF-888S can do it too, for 9 dollars a pop.

 

Then there is the Zello app, if you like two-way style comms, it uses the cellular network and its free!, better, and more reliable than any CCR would ever be. 

 

G.



#25 n4gix

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 05:29 PM

There is a noticeable difference in Receiver performance between tne XPR7550 and the XPR7550e. I don't carry one b/c I don't have one, yet. Aside from the price tag, you're boxed in a band, either VHF or UHF... can't do anything to convert... at least I haven't taken one apart to see what makes these radios different... if its a software (firmware) thing, or a physical hardware change.

When I first entered the DMR portion of ham radio, I got a good deal on a really well cared for XPR7550 (UHF). I had a custom leather holster made for it, along with the D-Ring for my belt. While it looks nice it is quite heavy, at least compared with my current favorite the AT-878 which weighs just over half as much, is about half the size, and has three times the features as the XPR7550.

 

The first time I carried to Dayton for the Hamvention, I found to my dismay that while I had packed a half-dozen HTs along on the trip (why I have no idea!), I had forgotten the charger for the XPR7550! :(

 

Fortunately, one of my DMR friends had an Impress charger and hand mic at his booth, so I bought both and all was well again. Now I find myself not even having turned on the XPR7550 for nearly two years. I have the software and programming cable, two chargers, two batteries, the leather holster and speaker mic and need to find a good home for this package. I do keep the batteries rotated and freshly charged though.

 

Now I've found that the battery on my GD-77 has gone bad. It won't hold a charge at all. Thirty seconds fresh off the charger and the radio loses power. I'm not sure about replacing the battery. I may just toss the radio in the trash.

 

I need to sell my MD-2017 and Ailunce HD-1 if possible. I just don't need that many HTs cluttering up the house.

 

It's too bad the AT-578 doesn't have a separation kit, as I'd really like that in my mobile. Running it in 220/440 DMR crossband would be nice. At least then I'd get some use out of my 220 HT that otherwise just sits around feeling lonely. I'm blessed with having a very wide-area 220 repeater here in NW Indiana, but no one else either uses it or has a radio... :unsure:


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#26 gman1971

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:52 PM

When I first entered the DMR portion of ham radio, I got a good deal on a really well cared for XPR7550 (UHF). I had a custom leather holster made for it, along with the D-Ring for my belt. While it looks nice it is quite heavy, at least compared with my current favorite the AT-878 which weighs just over half as much, is about half the size, and has three times the features as the XPR7550.

 

The first time I carried to Dayton for the Hamvention, I found to my dismay that while I had packed a half-dozen HTs along on the trip (why I have no idea!), I had forgotten the charger for the XPR7550! :(

 

Fortunately, one of my DMR friends had an Impress charger and hand mic at his booth, so I bought both and all was well again. Now I find myself not even having turned on the XPR7550 for nearly two years. I have the software and programming cable, two chargers, two batteries, the leather holster and speaker mic and need to find a good home for this package. I do keep the batteries rotated and freshly charged though.

 

Now I've found that the battery on my GD-77 has gone bad. It won't hold a charge at all. Thirty seconds fresh off the charger and the radio loses power. I'm not sure about replacing the battery. I may just toss the radio in the trash.

 

I need to sell my MD-2017 and Ailunce HD-1 if possible. I just don't need that many HTs cluttering up the house.

 

It's too bad the AT-578 doesn't have a separation kit, as I'd really like that in my mobile. Running in in 220/440 DMR crossband would be nice. At least then I'd get some use out of my 220 HT that otherwise just sits around feeling lonely. I'm blessed with having a very wide-area 220 repeater here in NW Indiana, but no one else either uses it or has a radio... :unsure:

 

The 7550 is an expensive radio, and after losing my Alinco MD5 I can't even begin to imagine how devastated I would've been losing an XPR7550 (E or not)  So I can see why someone would keep that baby home unless it was law enforcement, fire, ems... etc.

 

I agree, the 878 has far more features than the XPR7550, but the RX performance of the 7550 is much better, while the 878 is a huge step up from most of the CCRs, (200+ is hardly a CCR anyways, like the MD5). Inside my work place the EVX radio can hear much further than the MD5... I have yet to test the 578, which has a dual conversion hybrid receiver with crystal filters for selectivity.

 

At 390 bucks the AT-578 is hardly a CCR tho, its closer to Hytera in terms of RF performance than any of its portable direct conversion ancestors... (868, 878, MD5, 6x2) which are pretty decent, but no match for double conversion superhets like the Motorolas or the Vertex, Kenwood, Icoms... etc.

 

With that said, when it comes to multiband performance I think the 578 hits the mark on features/performance. Its tri-band out of the box, which is pretty much the only mobile that I am aware of that will do triband, crossband, full duplex, etc... The TYT 9600 mobile is a sorry excuse for a radio, really, expensive, full of bugs, poor RF performance... so the AT-578 seems like the only option if you want to listen to DMR traffic across the entire VHF/UHF bands without carrying two radios.

 

The separation kit is surely missed, but let me tell you, for a radio made overseas I am genuinely impressed. I have it on my desk above my EVX-5400, tuned to the Madison 700...  works great. Even inside my office, which is full of computers, monitors, and all kinds of RFI noise... the thing is full quiet when the repeater talks... even with a 1/4 wave VHF mag mount stuck atop a pizza pan over the highest shelf on the room. The GD77 can't hear anything if you connect it to the same antenna, other radios hear a lot of the RF noise from the computers etc, but this thing is dead quiet, just the person talking... which is basically like the TM-v71a or the TH-F6a or the EVX-5400 underneath...

 

G.



#27 gman1971

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 10:59 PM

When I first entered the DMR portion of ham radio, I got a good deal on a really well cared for XPR7550 (UHF). I had a custom leather holster made for it, along with the D-Ring for my belt. While it looks nice it is quite heavy, at least compared with my current favorite the AT-878 which weighs just over half as much, is about half the size, and has three times the features as the XPR7550.

 

The first time I carried to Dayton for the Hamvention, I found to my dismay that while I had packed a half-dozen HTs along on the trip (why I have no idea!), I had forgotten the charger for the XPR7550! :(

 

Fortunately, one of my DMR friends had an Impress charger and hand mic at his booth, so I bought both and all was well again. Now I find myself not even having turned on the XPR7550 for nearly two years. I have the software and programming cable, two chargers, two batteries, the leather holster and speaker mic and need to find a good home for this package. I do keep the batteries rotated and freshly charged though.

 

Now I've found that the battery on my GD-77 has gone bad. It won't hold a charge at all. Thirty seconds fresh off the charger and the radio loses power. I'm not sure about replacing the battery. I may just toss the radio in the trash.

 

I need to sell my MD-2017 and Ailunce HD-1 if possible. I just don't need that many HTs cluttering up the house.

 

It's too bad the AT-578 doesn't have a separation kit, as I'd really like that in my mobile. Running in in 220/440 DMR crossband would be nice. At least then I'd get some use out of my 220 HT that otherwise just sits around feeling lonely. I'm blessed with having a very wide-area 220 repeater here in NW Indiana, but no one else either uses it or has a radio... :unsure:

 

Most of my old CCR radios are just dead weight too, cluttering around the house. I guess I could sell a pack of 10 BF-888s for 40 bucks or so haha... most of my FM only portables aren't worth much anymore, I guess I could sell them by weight? hahaha.

 

The MD-2017 and the HD-1 have pretty poor front ends, they desense faster than you can say hello. I guess its like the features of the 878 except with terrible RF performance... the 878 is a far better radio IMO. I am considering picking one to replace my MD5 b/c I can get one with Bluetooth... lets just say I am spoiled with Senna helmet mounted intercom talking over with the 578 with the press of a remote PTT button... just amazing, no need to grab the microphone... nope.

 

Crossband DMR preserves the input ID, this information is not available anywhere; which means, when operating crossband mode its not the DMR ID of the 578 radio what the receiver sees, but the DMR ID of the radio that is being "crossbanded"

 

G.



#28 kipandlee

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:19 AM

Most of my old CCR radios are just dead weight too, cluttering around the house. I guess I could sell a pack of 10 BF-888s for 40 bucks or so haha..

after i'm done playing with the CCR radios i program a few freq  and give them to the grandkids and nieces and nephews they don't last long after that but the kids have fun while they do 


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#29 gman1971

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:48 PM

No grandkids here yet... :) just kids... :D 

 

G.


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#30 Ian

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 01:04 AM

Look, I know it’s an objectively bad radio, but it sat at the intersection of a Venn diagram that makes it uniquely compelling to me. Grocery store’s about five miles, and all I’ve known up to this point is bubblepack junk, a couple very nice Radio Shack FRS units, sadly underused, and now with PTT keys gone crunchy and disintegrated disabling otherwise sweet hardware, and Motorola Spirit SV-22 MURS units. Those are my favorite, but they’re heavy and can barely make it to the gas station, because VHF.

I’m not saying that they’re good at receive desnsing, but if you want bad bad, you should look at the Retevis RT-22 and its clones. I’ve never gotten the GD-77 to desense, but those do it at the drop of a hat.

I’m not hugely demanding of simplex comms. If I could find decent FRS, I’d be happy with that… except I have, in the form of the Motorola Sport 7. At this age, only about half of the ones on eBay work, and I’ve bought every one available, and I have two. They’re fantastic. Those Radio Shack ones are smaller, but they use AAAs (though they’ll charge them if you have a 9v adapter) and lack CTCSS, but can be set to any one of 22 channels with the DIP switches, whereas the Motorolas can only do seven channels, (1, 4, 8, 11…) and seven codes chosen more or less at random (set with a dial designed to be wrenched on with a quarter behind the battery compartment).

As for the GD-77, I’ve bowed to interoperability and run it narrowbanded, since most of my fleet is narrowband-only, and only the Talkabout Distances do wideband.

Ultimately, the project for which it was bought was to figure out who the heck was running DMR on channel 16 at the local park. Sadly, either the traffic’s encrypted, or setting up DMR is simply beyond me (for now…).

Still, if I’m carrying only one radio, there’s a good chance that’s the one. After I lost one of my Anytones to a drop, I’m leery about carrying irreplaceable hardware into the field (even if it’s just Home Depot) without careful consideration. Commercial-grade Motos (into which I place even the Sport 7) are reassuring, as is “not irreplaceable”. I have a wealth of good radios to pick from as my needs evolve, and I thank you for your advice on them.

CCRs have their place… which is “close to whoever you need to talk to.” ;)

#31 gman1971

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 06:01 AM

Well, I am sorry if I call BS to the 5 miles on narrowband, portable to portable using GD-77s. I am lucky if I get more than 1 mile using my GD-77 on UHF, and going inside a store, or any building for that matter, the range halves. Even with my base antenna on a Vertex Standard EVX-5300 running just 10W, the GD-77 is deaf hearing the base beyond 2-3 miles while the EVX-5300 can ANY 5W portable at over 11 miles away...  that tells you the receiver on those is just garbage. In contrast, the Alinco DJ-MD5 can hear the base at 3 miles pretty much full quiet, the GD77 cannot.

 

Motorola, even their FRS stuff is hardly a CCR, and I also have a few old bubblepack radios that destroy the GD77 in every aspect (except price)... the first one that comes to my mind is the Midland G11 with removable antenna, which was a pretty nice radio, I still have a few of those lying around, got pretty decent range out of those, the antennas were very well tuned too...

 

I understand as I've recently lost my Alinco DJ-MD5, it wasn't a Motorola pricetag kind of loss, but it still sucked. I will get another one at some point b/c I like those MD5 radios b/c they are small and have dual band so I can listen to all DMR traffic around town.

 

My experience with MURS has been the opposite, VHF reaches WAY further than UHF for the same amount of power.

 

G.

 

Look, I know it’s an objectively bad radio, but it sat at the intersection of a Venn diagram that makes it uniquely compelling to me. Grocery store’s about five miles, and all I’ve known up to this point is bubblepack junk, a couple very nice Radio Shack FRS units, sadly underused, and now with PTT keys gone crunchy and disintegrated disabling otherwise sweet hardware, and Motorola Spirit SV-22 MURS units. Those are my favorite, but they’re heavy and can barely make it to the gas station, because VHF.

I’m not saying that they’re good at receive desnsing, but if you want bad bad, you should look at the Retevis RT-22 and its clones. I’ve never gotten the GD-77 to desense, but those do it at the drop of a hat.

I’m not hugely demanding of simplex comms. If I could find decent FRS, I’d be happy with that… except I have, in the form of the Motorola Sport 7. At this age, only about half of the ones on eBay work, and I’ve bought every one available, and I have two. They’re fantastic. Those Radio Shack ones are smaller, but they use AAAs (though they’ll charge them if you have a 9v adapter) and lack CTCSS, but can be set to any one of 22 channels with the DIP switches, whereas the Motorolas can only do seven channels, (1, 4, 8, 11…) and seven codes chosen more or less at random (set with a dial designed to be wrenched on with a quarter behind the battery compartment).

As for the GD-77, I’ve bowed to interoperability and run it narrowbanded, since most of my fleet is narrowband-only, and only the Talkabout Distances do wideband.

Ultimately, the project for which it was bought was to figure out who the heck was running DMR on channel 16 at the local park. Sadly, either the traffic’s encrypted, or setting up DMR is simply beyond me (for now…).

Still, if I’m carrying only one radio, there’s a good chance that’s the one. After I lost one of my Anytones to a drop, I’m leery about carrying irreplaceable hardware into the field (even if it’s just Home Depot) without careful consideration. Commercial-grade Motos (into which I place even the Sport 7) are reassuring, as is “not irreplaceable”. I have a wealth of good radios to pick from as my needs evolve, and I thank you for your advice on them.

CCRs have their place… which is “close to whoever you need to talk to.” ;)



#32 Elkhunter521

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 06:25 AM

Gosh,
Doesn't anybody have an opinion here.
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Be vewy vewy quiet.
I'm listening to my wadio!


#33 DeoVindice

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 08:59 AM

Gosh,
Doesn't anybody have an opinion here.


You know what they say about opinions...

...we all know that Kenwood is the only way (unless you've mastered /\/\ software)

Admitted Kenwood fanboy and accumulator of public safety radios


#34 berkinet

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 09:08 AM

...Those are my favorite, but they’re heavy and can barely make it to the gas station, because VHF....
...CCRs have their place… which is “close to whoever you need to talk to.” ;)

 

Well, I can't say I agree on your first point (see below), but, I do agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion.

 

...My experience with MURS has been the opposite, VHF reaches WAY further than UHF for the same amount of power.

 

Agreed. In open space, VHF will travel further, have lower path loss  and better building penetration than UHF (See this paper for more information). On the other hand, UHF may actually work better inside a building because of signal splatter and reflection.


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Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.

-- Marcus Aurelius


#35 gman1971

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 02:52 PM

"It is the way", that sounds like the Mandalorian, man. hahaha.

 

I have some Kenwoods lying around, but I use Vertex Standard as my primary base/mobile rigs, the software is easy to work with and its free... /\/\ would be nice to have... and none of those are CCR...  

 

G.

 

 

You know what they say about opinions...

...we all know that Kenwood is the only way (unless you've mastered /\/\ software)


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#36 WRAF213

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:16 AM

I’m not saying that they’re good at receive desnsing, but if you want bad bad, you should look at the Retevis RT-22 and its clones. I’ve never gotten the GD-77 to desense, but those do it at the drop of a hat.

 

Look at how little filtering the RT-22 has. There's all sorts of unpopulated pads on the production model that aren't on the FCC submitted model. I bet those harmonics aren't 50dB down on production models.

 

 

Also, my primary GMRS long range link is all done using Vertex Standard commercial gear. As I've quickly (and expensively) realized, sticking anything UHF non-commercial grade to the Diamond X50C2 (a 7.2 dBd UHF gain vertical antenna) immediately blanked out, desensed, the receiver due to the massive RFI coming from the 1400-foot Candelabra tower that is less than 2 miles from my house...

Again, you're in a highly unconventional RF environment, RF power coming from the Candelabra transmitters through a typical UHF passband (370-530 MHz) should be in the ballpark of 0dBm. Most people are around -50dBm. That's a HUGE difference.

 

That said, CCRs aren't meant to be used on fixed antennas; they're designed to be used as portable radios. Most handhelds will show measurable desense on a high-gain base antenna, CCR or not. The typical CCR construction with a wide-open frontend happens to have a lot more desense. In open spaces away from other transmitters, they have a slight advantage due to less filtering loss.

 

They have their place, and that's on-site business use on the hip; can't desense if the strongest transmitter is the repeater you're using. They also work good enough for amateur use that people keep buying them. Few people in reality will cite receive performance as a reason to upgrade from a D878UV or something to a Motorola or Kenwood, it's mostly for audio quality.

 

 

My experience with MURS has been the opposite, VHF reaches WAY further than UHF for the same amount of power.

Over here, where the noise floor is high on VHF, I get better coverage on GMRS than MURS, and better 800 MHz Part 90 reception than 460 MHz Part 90 reception. In my experiences with line-of-sight conditions, the higher gain from UHF antennas gives better audio (helps to make up for deep fades, which are briefer on UHF), while in mobile-to-mobile situations with some separation VHF has an advantage in punching through terrain. UHF has much better spot coverage. For mobile-to-mobile operation, ~50W out into a gain antenna on GMRS should give universally better coverage than your Part 95 compliant MURS setup. Portable-to-portable simplex will be much more variable due to terrain. Noise floor is also an important consideration in urban environments, and lower frequencies will have more noise than higher frequencies.


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#37 gman1971

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:17 AM

Read the article, thank you!

 

G.

 

Well, I can't say I agree on your first point (see below), but, I do agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion.

 

 

Agreed. In open space, VHF will travel further, have lower path loss  and better building penetration than UHF (See this paper for more information). On the other hand, UHF may actually work better inside a building because of signal splatter and reflection.



#38 gman1971

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:29 AM

I have a ton of them, for intercom, so yep, I use them for that... again, but for long range I use commercial grade gear.

 

Well, the two TH-F6a I have don't seem to desense too bad on the same antenna where the GD77 won't hear anything. In fact, the TH-F6a seems to desense less than the TM-V71a on that same antenna, as it picks AM airband from the Madison ATIS tower much better and clearer than the TM-V71a (actually than the two TM-V71a I have) So, there is something to be said about Kenwood being very nice radios.

 

With that said, the EVX-5300 seems to be a much better radio than either the TH-F6a and the TM-V71a in terms of receiver on MURS, as in WAAY better, while it has lower advertised sensitivity, it filters the junk surprisingly well and it picks the portables clearer than the Kenwoods do.

 

Yes, that big tower doesn't help my situation...  hopefully in a couple of years I can move to a higher location, ideally 10+ miles away from the flamethrower antenna...

 

G.

 

 

Look at how little filtering the RT-22 has. There's all sorts of unpopulated pads on the production model that aren't on the FCC submitted model. I bet those harmonics aren't 50dB down on production models.

 

 

Again, you're in a highly unconventional RF environment, RF power coming from the Candelabra transmitters through a typical UHF passband (370-530 MHz) should be in the ballpark of 0dBm. Most people are around -50dBm. That's a HUGE difference.

 

That said, CCRs aren't meant to be used on fixed antennas; they're designed to be used as portable radios. Most handhelds will show measurable desense on a high-gain base antenna, CCR or not. The typical CCR construction with a wide-open frontend happens to have a lot more desense. In open spaces away from other transmitters, they have a slight advantage due to less filtering loss.

 

They have their place, and that's on-site business use on the hip; can't desense if the strongest transmitter is the repeater you're using. They also work good enough for amateur use that people keep buying them. Few people in reality will cite receive performance as a reason to upgrade from a D878UV or something to a Motorola or Kenwood, it's mostly for audio quality.

 

 

Over here, where the noise floor is high on VHF, I get better coverage on GMRS than MURS, and better 800 MHz Part 90 reception than 460 MHz Part 90 reception. In my experiences with line-of-sight conditions, the higher gain from UHF antennas gives better audio (helps to make up for deep fades, which are briefer on UHF), while in mobile-to-mobile situations with some separation VHF has an advantage in punching through terrain. UHF has much better spot coverage. For mobile-to-mobile operation, ~50W out into a gain antenna on GMRS should give universally better coverage than your Part 95 compliant MURS setup. Portable-to-portable simplex will be much more variable due to terrain. Noise floor is also an important consideration in urban environments, and lower frequencies will have more noise than higher frequencies.



#39 Ian

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 11:35 PM

Well, I can't say I agree on your first point (see below), but, I do agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion.

 

 

Agreed. In open space, VHF will travel further, have lower path loss  and better building penetration than UHF (See this paper for more information). On the other hand, UHF may actually work better inside a building because of signal splatter and reflection.

Super cool, thanks!

 

 

Well, I am sorry if I call BS to the 5 miles on narrowband, portable to portable using GD-77s. I am lucky if I get more than 1 mile using my GD-77 on UHF, and going inside a store, or any building for that matter, the range halves. Even with my base antenna on a Vertex Standard EVX-5300 running just 10W, the GD-77 is deaf hearing the base beyond 2-3 miles while the EVX-5300 can ANY 5W portable at over 11 miles away...  that tells you the receiver on those is just garbage. In contrast, the Alinco DJ-MD5 can hear the base at 3 miles pretty much full quiet, the GD77 cannot.

 

Motorola, even their FRS stuff is hardly a CCR, and I also have a few old bubblepack radios that destroy the GD77 in every aspect (except price)... the first one that comes to my mind is the Midland G11 with removable antenna, which was a pretty nice radio, I still have a few of those lying around, got pretty decent range out of those, the antennas were very well tuned too...

 

I understand as I've recently lost my Alinco DJ-MD5, it wasn't a Motorola pricetag kind of loss, but it still sucked. I will get another one at some point b/c I like those MD5 radios b/c they are small and have dual band so I can listen to all DMR traffic around town.

 

My experience with MURS has been the opposite, VHF reaches WAY further than UHF for the same amount of power.

 

G.

 

Actually, only one GD-77s.  The other is either a Midland MXT275, or an Anytone TERMN-8R.  Perhaps they're covering up for the weakness of the GD-77s' front-end filtering with clean output into a low-noise area?  I know I don't have any repeaters nearby, the only thing I can hear from here is, occasionally from a hilltop, a Jacksonville repeater automatically ID'ing, so I suspect I'm in an unexpectedly favorable RF environment.  Terrain is Florida, so flat as a pancake.  I have a few repeaters handy when I go to the beach, but the middle of the state is a dead zone.  Also, I'm the only one who ever uses those repeaters in Cocoa Beach, as far as I can tell; I like to monitor them and SARnet when I'm beaching it up.

 

This place is just a dead zone, for the most part.  Every third time I drive by a park, I hear DMR on channel 16.  Occasionally a kid with a walkie-talkie after Christmases.  But for all I scan, I don't hear much at all.  :(

 

Edit:  Nah, you were right.  I just checked the maps, and it's closer to 1.7 miles to the grocery store.


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#40 gman1971

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 05:29 AM

Well, 1.7 miles seems feasible considering only one GD77 is used, and being in Florida with a low RFI environment helps too. The Anytone and the Midland probably have a much better front end than the GD-77S too, which is as bad as they come, worse than the UV-5R/GT-3 radio

 

G.

 

 

Super cool, thanks!

 

 

 

Actually, only one GD-77s.  The other is either a Midland MXT275, or an Anytone TERMN-8R.  Perhaps they're covering up for the weakness of the GD-77s' front-end filtering with clean output into a low-noise area?  I know I don't have any repeaters nearby, the only thing I can hear from here is, occasionally from a hilltop, a Jacksonville repeater automatically ID'ing, so I suspect I'm in an unexpectedly favorable RF environment.  Terrain is Florida, so flat as a pancake.  I have a few repeaters handy when I go to the beach, but the middle of the state is a dead zone.  Also, I'm the only one who ever uses those repeaters in Cocoa Beach, as far as I can tell; I like to monitor them and SARnet when I'm beaching it up.

 

This place is just a dead zone, for the most part.  Every third time I drive by a park, I hear DMR on channel 16.  Occasionally a kid with a walkie-talkie after Christmases.  But for all I scan, I don't hear much at all.  :(

 

Edit:  Nah, you were right.  I just checked the maps, and it's closer to 1.7 miles to the grocery store.






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