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Motorola CPS training materials?


Lscott
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For the moment I’m going to play around with the XPR6550’s. I need to get use to how the software works.

I watched a video on how a guy recovered a password locked Motorola radio without the password or any kind of software/hardware hack required. Good info in case I ever have to do it. With Kenwood radios you’re sort of screwed without the Dealer/Engineering level CPS installed or a cracked version of the customer version. I had to do the later for a password locked used Kenwood NX-340U.

 

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Is there a good place to find information on Moto products? Kenwood will at least let you see all the models and options you can get, Moto seems to only want you to make a decision based on whatever your dealer tells you, true or not. I'd like to know if there is a dual RF deck, single head option.

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I usually return radios that are password protected, no matter what. Even if I can open them in CPS. To me a password protected radio seems fishy, and potentially stolen, so IMO its better to pass on such radios. There are people who keep track of these stolen radios in the different radio forums... 

G.

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8 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

Is there a good place to find information on Moto products? Kenwood will at least let you see all the models and options you can get, Moto seems to only want you to make a decision based on whatever your dealer tells you, true or not. I'd like to know if there is a dual RF deck, single head option.

TRBO radios do not have dual deck option, the 5550e is single deck, so is the 5550 and the 4550. All TRBO XPR radios are single band.

The top end APX radios have multiband built in, so you don't need any multideck. The APX8500 mobile will do VHF, UHF1+2 and 800-900 mhz, in all modulations, FM, P25 and I think there are other digital modes, but again, I don't own one so I don't know the details. Now, the 8500 is a 4000+ dollar radio, so not sure how rich is your blood, but its certainly not within what I am willing to spend just to have two bands that I don't use. To me, it would've been more valuable with 6m, 2m, 70cm and 23cm, but... 

If you need info on the XPR lineup, just post here, or send me PM directly, I'll be glad to help.

G.

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5 minutes ago, gman1971 said:

TRBO radios do not have dual deck option, the 5550e is single deck, so is the 5550 and the 4550. All TRBO XPR radios are single band.

The top end APX radios have multiband built in, so you don't need any multideck. The APX8500 mobile will do VHF, UHF1+2 and 800-900 mhz, in all modulations, FM, P25 and I think there are other digital modes, but again, I don't own one so I don't know the details. Now, the 8500 is a 4000+ dollar radio, so not sure how rich is your blood, but its certainly not within what I am willing to spend just to have two bands that I don't use. To me, it would've been more valuable with 6m, 2m, 70cm and 23cm, but... 

See, that's kind of a deal breaker. If, you could put together a Kenwood NX tri-deck with VHF Lo (110W), VHF Hi (110W) and UHF, all with P25, DMR, NXDN and Analog on a single head.

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Well, I see what you are saying, but truthfully, it wasn't a problem for me (and I used to have only dual band radios before, at least dual), but then I don't use my radios to do hammy stuff, my radios are primarily for business, and then for extremely reliable comms within the family. So I don't particularly care about the number of bands or modulations available: I have all I need already.

There is also a logistical nightmare associated with dealing with 4 decks, and all the power those decks require, etc. How do I know? b/c I have a digital repeater on each vehicle, built from 2 EVX-5300 decks + the XPR 5550e, and trust me, its a major pain in the rear, dealing with triplexers, multiple antennas, cables, etc... I can't imagine dealing with one more extra deck, no thanks. I much rather pay for a P25 APX8500 than deal with these pains.

Also, I don't think the NXDN radios can do all three modulations at once. You have to pick 2 out of the three. To me, this is a tactic used b/c you can't compete in the receiver performance, so they have to make up for it somewhere else. To me, the reason why Kenwood is doing this multi-mode stuff is b/c their receivers are inferior to the ones in the XPR and APX radios, so in order to offer something Moto doesn't have, they do that. The same gimmick as the CCRs with fancy screens and gazillion contacts.

The TRBO radios and APX radios currently have the best receivers money can buy, which for me was pretty much the whole point of having a radio, a radio that isn't deaf or has an inferior receiver. Again, I much rather have one, or two 99.9% reliable channels than all the bands and modulations in the world. IMO, FM is the only modulation I wouldn't mind having multi band support, but for digital, without knowing all the parameters, TGs, etc, its kinda useless for interop purposes. That is been my experience with digital modes at least.

G.

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59 minutes ago, gman1971 said:

I usually return radios that are password protected, no matter what. Even if I can open them in CPS. To me a password protected radio seems fishy, and potentially stolen, so IMO its better to pass on such radios. There are people who keep track of these stolen radios in the different radio forums... 

G.

That's possible.

I did read where it's done by some radio shops to lock out the customer, in some case from the radios they own, to force them to come back for updates and changes to the code plug. That's just plain BS. 

I think in other cases the radio shop may have a trunked radio system they own and operate which they sell access to their customers as an extra cost service. They charge by the number of radios on the system. By password locking the radio they can reduce, or prevent, the customer from adding more radios to the system they are not paying for because they can't get into an existing radio to read it for the necessary info. That I can sort of understand.

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54 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

See, that's kind of a deal breaker. If, you could put together a Kenwood NX tri-deck with VHF Lo (110W), VHF Hi (110W) and UHF, all with P25, DMR, NXDN and Analog on a single head.

Kenwood sort of does, at least multi-mode, with their NX-5000 series radios. They are still mono band however. Even at that they are really spendy. 

http://comms.kenwood.com/special/nx_5000/common/pdf/nx_5000_brochure_2016.pdf

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4 hours ago, gman1971 said:

Thanks Scott. VHF 6550 for 75 is a good deal. That would make it about 100 with charger. So that is good! :)

I really think you should get an XPR7550e. The audio on the XPR7550e is much better than the 6550... but again, I started with a bunch of 6550 before I decided to "upgrade"

G.

Well FedEx showed up with the VHF XPR6550 radio a few minutes ago here at the office. Looks like it's in good condition. Now as long as it works...

XPR6550.jpg

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4 hours ago, gman1971 said:

Well, I see what you are saying, but truthfully, it wasn't a problem for me (and I used to have only dual band radios before, at least dual), but then I don't use my radios to do hammy stuff, my radios are primarily for business, and then for extremely reliable comms within the family. So I don't particularly care about the number of bands or modulations available: I have all I need already.

There is also a logistical nightmare associated with dealing with 4 decks, and all the power those decks require, etc. How do I know? b/c I have a digital repeater on each vehicle, built from 2 EVX-5300 decks + the XPR 5550e, and trust me, its a major pain in the rear, dealing with triplexers, multiple antennas, cables, etc... I can't imagine dealing with one more extra deck, no thanks. I much rather pay for a P25 APX8500 than deal with these pains.

Also, I don't think the NXDN radios can do all three modulations at once. You have to pick 2 out of the three. To me, this is a tactic used b/c you can't compete in the receiver performance, so they have to make up for it somewhere else. To me, the reason why Kenwood is doing this multi-mode stuff is b/c their receivers are inferior to the ones in the XPR and APX radios, so in order to offer something Moto doesn't have, they do that. The same gimmick as the CCRs with fancy screens and gazillion contacts.

The TRBO radios and APX radios currently have the best receivers money can buy, which for me was pretty much the whole point of having a radio, a radio that isn't deaf or has an inferior receiver. Again, I much rather have one, or two 99.9% reliable channels than all the bands and modulations in the world. IMO, FM is the only modulation I wouldn't mind having multi band support, but for digital, without knowing all the parameters, TGs, etc, its kinda useless for interop purposes. That is been my experience with digital modes at least.

G.

The mobiles do all 3 at once, the HTs are a pick 2 digital modes. Power isn't an issue with a 2-3 deck single head unit because only one is active and the others are standby.

It does sound like you should have looked into vehicle repeaters, there are tons of great solutions that the police use, and probably doesn't cost much more than your setups.

I just looked at the APX8500, and its P25 only. To buy a moto without DMR (what they are really good at) seems silly to me.

3 hours ago, Lscott said:

Kenwood sort of does, at least multi-mode, with their NX-5000 series radios. They are still mono band however. Even at that they are really spendy. 

http://comms.kenwood.com/special/nx_5000/common/pdf/nx_5000_brochure_2016.pdf

Yes, the NX-5000 mobiles are mono band decks, but you can pair up to 3 RF decks with a single head, or do 3 decks with 2 control heads.

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1 minute ago, Lscott said:

I don't know where you're located in Ohio but I'm planing on going to the Findlay Ohio Ham swap this Sunday. If you're going to be there we could meet up and say hi.

If I can stand Sunday (I'm putting in new LVL headers and roof section on my in-laws garage myself tomorrow) I have grass to mow at two houses and I think my wife tacked on a screen door install. I unfortunately won't be making Findlay. 

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Just now, tweiss3 said:

If I can stand Sunday (I'm putting in new LVL headers and roof section on my in-laws garage myself tomorrow) I have grass to mow at two houses and I think my wife tacked on a screen door install. I unfortunately won't be making Findlay. 

Weekends are supposed to be where you kick back with a few cold Browns from the fridge and watch the game on TV. You're weekend doesn't sound like it's going to be much fun.

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@tweiss3

Well, owning radios with inferior receivers seems silly to me too, so? your point?

Also, its all good while you have a car, or have a place to run those 3 deckers behemoths, and 110 watts is just hair over 3dBm more than 50 watts: which means that if you can't reach with 50w, 110w is probably not going to do it either. Also, those 110watts are going to suck the battery dry and potentially shorten the MTBF of the device due to heat, if you have an unmatched antenna, etc. Then there is the fact that XPR7550e has a 4-5 dBm advantage over the NX radios in terms of digital receiver performance, so I can run 50watt and b/c my radios have superior receivers I don't need to run 110watts to achieve the same performance.

Having a 3 decks, 2 faceplate radio in a real SHTF, where cars might not be an option, and bugging in might not be possible either, you are only left with carrying what you can hold/fit on your backpack, and a 3 decker 2 faceplate leadsled behemoth, along with a battery pack capable of churning those 110 watts for any amount of time that is not measured in milliseconds, plus the solar panel array to recharge it in a timely manner; well, maybe you are Hercules and can haul all that stuff around just fine, but I am certainly not going to pretend, and as someone who does long hikes with his backpack radio equipment almost on a daily basis, it seems like there might be some extra weight and space problems in there for your all mode-all-band-all mighty utopia.

If you need that much all-mode all-band juice, then just buy a good scanner, bud. I did, works great, and it fits on my pocket!! :) Having three decks on 2 faceplates is no different than me owning two 5550e and an APX8500 with all bands enabled. Yeah, I have one extra faceplate... so?

Last, but not least, as for vehicular repeaters; bud, I've been operating multiple DMR vehicular repeaters for about a year now. How many do you say you personally own and operate, again?

G.

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The Impres battery system is one of the few Motorola things that impresses the heck out of me. I'm surprised that other manufacturers haven't followed Motorola's lead on this. I can vouch for the increase in battery life & efficiency. I've had some customers getting 4 and 5 years out of daily use Impres batteries before they drop below 80% capacity. Prior to Impres, those batteries would have been tossed after 2-3 years. Nearly doubling the lifespan makes a pretty good case for why you should pay twice as much for Impres.

Newer 2nd generation XPR radios (not the XPR6550) and systems allow you to report and track battery status "over the air" as the units transmit.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

The Impres battery system is one of the few Motorola things that impresses the heck out of me. I'm surprised that other manufacturers haven't followed Motorola's lead on this. I can vouch for the increase in battery life & efficiency. I've had some customers getting 4 and 5 years out of daily use Impres batteries before they drop below 80% capacity. Prior to Impres, those batteries would have been tossed after 2-3 years. Nearly doubling the lifespan makes a pretty good case for why you should pay twice as much for Impres.

Newer 2nd generation XPR radios (not the XPR6550) and systems allow you to report and track battery status "over the air" as the units transmit.

 

 

I would tend to agree with you. As it is with my growing pile of various used Kenwood battery packs I've spent weeks running capacity tests on them, I used a lab grade E-Load with a built in battery test mode, and putting a sticker on the back side showing date and measured capacity when I'm done. Having the charger do it is much better.

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@Radioguy7268 I totally agree. IMO, there are a lot more to those Motorolas than just a darn good receiver, which is, IMO, the utmost important component in a radio, of course, followed closely by a good transmitter; but then there is the whole management aspect on those Motorolas: Like OTAP via WiFi or BT, programming with no cables, on the go, and the whole battery management stuff that is pretty darn useful (and cool) too.

@Lscott Yep, that going around testing batteries is no longer an issue with the IMPRES stuff. You can see every bit of relevant information over the life of a battery... and b/c the charger knows the status of the battery, it helps the batteries last longer too. The calibration cycles (or yellow) discharges the battery help keep the batteries cycled and simulate a full duty cycle every once in a while. Lithium packs don't usually like to be left on the charger fully charged for long periods of time... so on the IMPRES 2 stuff you get a flashing green-yellow indicating you should let it run the calibration cycle... or swap the pack and set the calibration on that one... It gives you a snapshot of the state of the battery fleet, and like radioguy7268 said, you can also report that info via WiFi too... so pretty darn cool.

Welcome to the Motorola country club! :)

G

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I'm going to experiment with the few XPR's I have and see how I like them.

The one thing I have noticed is the squelch settings. You only have a choice of "Normal" or "Tight". The help file in some places says there is also a level you can set, more like the other radios I have, but on the 6550's I don't see it anywhere in the menus. Looks like I'm stuck with the two funky settings. It does work but I have no idea how the two work. I'm just wondering if it's somehow self adjusting.

I like the battery pack monitoring. That's a cool feature to have. I plugged all the packs in to a radio and got the first service date and current capacity limits. Used that and put a label on each pack so I know which one is which. I have two at 100%, one at 70% and the last one is 40%. That last one gives me the flashing yellow light for low service life on the charger. What I would like to know is the actual mAh rating of the pack. Some I can't read the label and that info isn't stored in the pack either from what I can see.

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51 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I'm going to experiment with the few XPR's I have and see how I like them.

The one thing I have noticed is the squelch settings. You only have a choice of "Normal" or "Tight". The help file in some places says there is also a level you can set, more like the other radios I have, but on the 6550's I don't see it anywhere in the menus. Looks like I'm stuck with the two funky settings. It does work but I have no idea how the two work. I'm just wondering if it's somehow self adjusting.

I like the battery pack monitoring. That's a cool feature to have. I plugged all the packs in to a radio and got the first service date and current capacity limits. Used that and put a label on each pack so I know which one is which. I have two at 100%, one at 70% and the last one is 40%. That last one gives me the flashing yellow light for low service life on the charger. What I would like to know is the actual mAh rating of the pack. Some I can't read the label and that info isn't stored in the pack either from what I can see.

I came across the Normal/Tight settings for my Connect Systems radio. The actual squelch levels were tucked away in the radio settings where you put the radio identity in. Might be similar in Moto CPS, though for Digital its not used, on in analog channels.

 

On 9/11/2021 at 3:50 AM, gman1971 said:

@tweiss3

Well, owning radios with inferior receivers seems silly to me too, so? your point?

Also, its all good while you have a car, or have a place to run those 3 deckers behemoths, and 110 watts is just hair over 3dBm more than 50 watts: which means that if you can't reach with 50w, 110w is probably not going to do it either. Also, those 110watts are going to suck the battery dry and potentially shorten the MTBF of the device due to heat, if you have an unmatched antenna, etc. Then there is the fact that XPR7550e has a 4-5 dBm advantage over the NX radios in terms of digital receiver performance, so I can run 50watt and b/c my radios have superior receivers I don't need to run 110watts to achieve the same performance.

Having a 3 decks, 2 faceplate radio in a real SHTF, where cars might not be an option, and bugging in might not be possible either, you are only left with carrying what you can hold/fit on your backpack, and a 3 decker 2 faceplate leadsled behemoth, along with a battery pack capable of churning those 110 watts for any amount of time that is not measured in milliseconds, plus the solar panel array to recharge it in a timely manner; well, maybe you are Hercules and can haul all that stuff around just fine, but I am certainly not going to pretend, and as someone who does long hikes with his backpack radio equipment almost on a daily basis, it seems like there might be some extra weight and space problems in there for your all mode-all-band-all mighty utopia.

If you need that much all-mode all-band juice, then just buy a good scanner, bud. I did, works great, and it fits on my pocket!! :) Having three decks on 2 faceplates is no different than me owning two 5550e and an APX8500 with all bands enabled. Yeah, I have one extra faceplate... so?

Last, but not least, as for vehicular repeaters; bud, I've been operating multiple DMR vehicular repeaters for about a year now. How many do you say you personally own and operate, again?

G.

You and I have two different uses and surrounding areas. I'm not really bad mouthing Moto, though their acquiring of Vertex Standard and killing the line all together does seem to leave a bad taste, as I liked that lineup. That may be because I'm partial to Yaesu.

Based on my intended operational area, VHF low band and/or 6m is and will continue to be part of the plan. I also won't ever give up 2m or 70cm ham, thus the 3 RF decks. Sure, I could put multiple heads/radios, but that only further expands the power problem. Again, I don't have a commercial license (yet) so our uses remain very different. I also never intend on putting up a full time repeater. But for receiver performance, in digital modes, the signal is there or it isn't, and a proper antenna in my experience is more important than the minor differences across the commercial options.

I've thought of getting Moto gear numerous times, but the thing stopping me is getting support, documentation and software. 

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35 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

I came across the Normal/Tight settings for my Connect Systems radio. The actual squelch levels were tucked away in the radio settings where you put the radio identity in. Might be similar in Moto CPS, though for Digital its not used, on in analog channels.

I've thought of getting Moto gear numerous times, but the thing stopping me is getting support, documentation and software. 

I'll have to look some more but so far I can't find the level settings. I think the help file comments likely applies to some other models, but the help file doesn't mention anything along that line. I don't see any settings in the Mototrbo app either for different squelch levels, just the two funky named settings I mentioned.

You're right about the Moto software. Even with the Kenwood stuff I have I won't consider purchasing a used radio until I have the programming software in-hand, installed and functioning. The main reason why I'm picking up some of the XPR6550's is the prices aren't crazy and I found finally found a full version of Mototrbo V16 build 828, with the 25KHz entitlement hack and code plug password bypass mod's. I also found the Mototrbo Tuner app, V16 build 238 as well. There is a V16.1 but so far I can't find it on-line yet.

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Just to keep things More Moto-confusing, there's another software pkg out there called "Tuner". You better know what you're doing before you mess around with Tuner blindly & just "try some stuff" to see what it does. Save your Tuner files before you do ANYTHING you might regret. You also need to match up the firmware package on the radio with the version of Tuner you plan to use. Newer versions of Tuner pretty much assume that you've got the radio hooked up to a high end Aeroflex service monitor to do "Autotune" which is a nice feature if you're going through 100 or 1000 radios, but not so great for the hobby user.

Anyway - the Tuner software is where you can actually adjust the squelch settings. From the factory, the standard Normal squelch is fairly close to threshold, and Tight usually brings it up 3-5 dB. 

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2 hours ago, tweiss3 said:

I came across the Normal/Tight settings for my Connect Systems radio. The actual squelch levels were tucked away in the radio settings where you put the radio identity in. Might be similar in Moto CPS, though for Digital its not used, on in analog channels.

 

You and I have two different uses and surrounding areas. I'm not really bad mouthing Moto, though their acquiring of Vertex Standard and killing the line all together does seem to leave a bad taste, as I liked that lineup. That may be because I'm partial to Yaesu.

Based on my intended operational area, VHF low band and/or 6m is and will continue to be part of the plan. I also won't ever give up 2m or 70cm ham, thus the 3 RF decks. Sure, I could put multiple heads/radios, but that only further expands the power problem. Again, I don't have a commercial license (yet) so our uses remain very different. I also never intend on putting up a full time repeater. But for receiver performance, in digital modes, the signal is there or it isn't, and a proper antenna in my experience is more important than the minor differences across the commercial options.

I've thought of getting Moto gear numerous times, but the thing stopping me is getting support, documentation and software. 

Yep, I didn't like when the Vertex lineup went away either, I own several of these EVX radios which have served me well... but I am not partial to Yaesu, the thing was that these EVX radios had pretty decent receivers, on par with the XPR7550 (non e model) but lacked some of the bells and whistles their XPR counterparts had, and some of the stuff isn't quite compatible with XPR radios... but they work.Those can be had for cheap on eBay, and the CPS is free, as it is available in MOL resource center, free of charge.

Well, yes, good antenna is certainly important, no doubt, but it needs to be mated to a receiver capable of handling it and taking advantage of the antenna gain, otherwise, using a poor receiver means worse performance. This performance degradation shows in two forms: Desense or intermod. Most low end direct conversion receivers will desense, really bad in some cases, and superhets with piss poor front ends (or no front end) will intermod like its going out of style. For example, mating the AT-578 to the 2-bay dipole kills the radio due to intermod, I get massive intermod from the NOAA station blasting <1 mile from base, this intermod breaks in every single frequency on that 578 radio, but that intermod doesn't happen with none the EVX radios nor the XPR radios, nor the CDM radios I have. When performing ISO-tee tests on direct conversion receivers, which work "reasonably well" with a rubber duck, will desense several dB when mated to the 2-bay dipole, or a high gainer vertical. So, while the antenna might offer a hefty 4.15 dBd gain, the 10 dB desense on the receiver will yield a net gain of -6 dB, thus mating a good antenna to a poor receiver will result in lower range than if you were using a rubber duck. Again, quality of the receiver is paramount if you expect your range measured in tens of miles as opposed to tenths of a mile. A good antenna depends on the receiver as much as the radio depends on a good antenna, both go hand in hand.

Now, the one thing that is above having a good receiver, and a good antenna, is elevation, period. If you want range, you need height, but if you can't get height, then you must resort to better receivers and better antennas (which is what I had to do) 

I understand your concerns about Motorola, but let me tell you, I had no idea about Motorola radios 1 1/2 years ago, total noob. In fact I was somewhat worried about going Motorola, all those old wives tales about Motorola lawyers, Motorola hating hams, hating individuals, MOL account denials... etc... etc... plus I was a total noob, too... (still am,  b/c those radios have so many options (LScott can vouch for that) and some of the more advanced stuff like CapMax, etc, I've never even used.) Anyhow, I persevered and got the hang of it (for the most part). Documentation is aplenty on Motorola equipment, and you can download service manuals for pretty much everything, there are training videos all over the internet for their stuff, and the software is just 169 bucks. I know, its not CCR free, but the thing works, and the guys who wrote it deserve being paid, they do make a salary, as opposed to the forced labor who wrote the CCR CPS, probably made 10 dollar per week, at best :)... The point is that a single purchase gets you all the radios you can buy, forever. I did it, and never looked back. While I understand the software might be accessible via non-legal ways, I will NOT advocate doing that. The CPS 16 can also be download from MyView, along with the latest CPS (which personally I don't recommend using unless you don't have a choice) Then there are forums of people who all they use is Motorola gear, you can always ask around.

G.

 

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3 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

Just to keep things More Moto-confusing, there's another software pkg out there called "Tuner". You better know what you're doing before you mess around with Tuner blindly & just "try some stuff" to see what it does. Save your Tuner files before you do ANYTHING you might regret. You also need to match up the firmware package on the radio with the version of Tuner you plan to use. Newer versions of Tuner pretty much assume that you've got the radio hooked up to a high end Aeroflex service monitor to do "Autotune" which is a nice feature if you're going through 100 or 1000 radios, but not so great for the hobby user.

Anyway - the Tuner software is where you can actually adjust the squelch settings. From the factory, the standard Normal squelch is fairly close to threshold, and Tight usually brings it up 3-5 dB. 

Yup, Kenwood has the tuner feature in many of their CPS packages. I'll agree you can really mess up a radio if you're not careful. I got the package because it was used by another guy when he was breaking the password protection on the Moto radios. You save the current tuner values in the radio to a disk file, then "recover" the radio by loading the firmware and code plug through the Mototrbo CPS. Then to be sure you reload the radio's tuner values. You should then be able to read an empty code plug out of the radio without getting the password prompt anymore.

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