Digital VOICE choices - Pros/Cons

[jgillaspy]

Hello All,

So first off, let's try to keep this on topic. The last thread about "Your favorite digital mode and why" flew off topic rather quickly.

From what I've found so far when it comes to digital voice you have 3 choices:

1. System Fusion - Yaesu proprietary, easy to use, internet connected with wires-x, expensive hardware (HT or Mobile), no registration

2. D-Star - JAIA open source project with proprietary CODEC, ICOM's solution, less expensive hardware, a little more difficult to setup but not bad, requires registration to leave local repeater

3. DMR - Completely open source, available from all the CCM folks, requires registration, very involved to setup, cheapest hardware options

I know the choice may really come down to availability of repeaters in my area. In a 25-mile radius of my home I see the following:

1. System Fusion - 11

2. D-Star - 4

3, DMR - 3

Each is a mix of 2M and 70CM. I've read where Fusion is falling out of fashion across the US, but winning here, so that would be a logical choice, but the cheapest mobile I've found (used) is around $500. More than I want to spend to try this stuff out.

What says the group?

JG 

[tweiss3]

YSF sounds like the logical choice. Look for FT3DRs, since the 5 came out, there are at least 3 for sale a day on QRZ.

[jgillaspy]

@tweiss3Thanks for the update. ebay and QRZ have them starting @ $300. I'll keep watching.

JG

[tweiss3]

You can also do YSF with the FT300, FT400 and FT100 as well.

[jgillaspy]

What about the FT-70DR HTs? They are more in my price range. What am I giving up with those?

JG

[tweiss3]

Yes, that one does YSF too. You have to make all the commands via DTMF tones, not that it's an issue. The screen is also limited, but for the $ difference between the two HTs......

[Lscott]

Myself I'm leaning towards DMR. Fairly cheap hardware is available. You can get reasonably priced Chinese radios. Then move up in performance to the commercial vendors, Icom, Kenwood and Motorola, yeah they cost more but have less issues than the Chinese ones.

I have a collection of radios for D-Star, DMR, P25 and NXDN. Nothing for Fusion yet. If one is interested in P25 or NXDN your only real choice is getting a commercial grade radio. As far as I know there are no "amateur" level radios being sold for those two.

Around the Detroit area, where I'm at, there is very little P25 and NXDN activity. In fact there is exactly ONE repeater in the whole state that is listed in "Repeaterbook.com" as being NXDN enabled! I don't think it's even networked.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/feature_search.php?state_id=26&type=NXDN

Around the west coast area of Florida NXDN seems to have a fair bit of activity.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/feature_search.php?state_id=12&type=NXDN

There are a few P25 repeaters around.

https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/feature_search.php?state_id=26&type=P25

Most of the digital voice modes seem to be mostly used on UHF. That's fortunate since its far easier to find used commercial radios that do analog/digital in the UHF versions. The VHF models are not so common. And, in my case, the VHF Kenwoods seem to be expensive relative to their UHF versions of the same radio model, particularly for hand-held radios.

At lest all of the digital radios I own can also do analog FM too. Not everyone has a digital radio you're going to talk too.

The CON to the whole digital voice mode is if you want to use a different mode you're likely stuck buying another radio. Yes there are some out there that do more than one digital mode, and have a huge price tag, but none do all of the modes. You want to talk D-Star hang a radio for it on your belt, want to do DMR get another radio and hang it next to the other one etc. Petty soon your waist line is going to look like a Batman's utility belt full of HT's.

[wayoverthere]

11 minutes ago, Lscott said:

 Most of the digital voice modes seem to be mostly used on UHF. That's fortunate since its far easier to find used commercial radios that do analog/digital in the UHF versions. The VHF models are not so common. And, in my case, the VHF Kenwoods seem to be expensive relative to their UHF versions of the same radio model, particularly for hand-held radios.

At lest all of the digital radios I own can also do analog FM too. Not everyone has a digital radio you're going to talk too.

I've noticed the same in the vertex line: probably 2:1 uhf:vhf, both in availability and price difference.  There also seems to be few mobile options for p25 outside of motorola.i think Kenwood has a couple models, vertex has one, and there's an icom, but for that last one it seems to be a dealer unlockable feature, few of the capable models I've seen have it enabled, and the pricing to add it after the fact makes Motorola look inexpensive (what I found seems to imply 300-400 for the option board, and 600 for the license to unlock it).

Maybe I'm just not as aware what's out there, but it does seem like the digital modes in general skew more toward handhelds than mobiles. That said, in absence of a job requirement, I don't think I'd even buy a radio that was strictly digital with no analog capability.

[tweiss3]

P25 is widely available, as that is really pushed as THE public safety mode now, and as such, all the manufacturers have built P25 equipment. Motorola, Kenwood (and Kenwood Viking), Icom, Tait and L3Harris all have P25 offerings, both Phase 1 and Phase 2.

[tweiss3]

18 hours ago, jgillaspy said:

Hello All,

So first off, let's try to keep this on topic. The last thread about "Your favorite digital mode and why" flew off topic rather quickly.

From what I've found so far when it comes to digital voice you have 3 choices:

1. System Fusion - Yaesu proprietary, easy to use, internet connected with wires-x, expensive hardware (HT or Mobile), no registration

2. D-Star - JAIA open source project with proprietary CODEC, ICOM's solution, less expensive hardware, a little more difficult to setup but not bad, requires registration to leave local repeater

3. DMR - Completely open source, available from all the CCM folks, requires registration, very involved to setup, cheapest hardware options

I know the choice may really come down to availability of repeaters in my area. In a 25-mile radius of my home I see the following:

1. System Fusion - 11

2. D-Star - 4

3, DMR - 3

Each is a mix of 2M and 70CM. I've read where Fusion is falling out of fashion across the US, but winning here, so that would be a logical choice, but the cheapest mobile I've found (used) is around $500. More than I want to spend to try this stuff out.

What says the group?

JG 

Thinking about this more, I think we also need more input from you. When I am home, all digital work is done through hotspots, just lets me have full control of what I'm listening to and how long, and it doesn't annoy anyone. When I'm out and about in the car, I have a YSF mobile that is running APRS full time and 95% of the time is analog on the other bank, but in 90 seconds I could switch over to the DMR radio also installed.

What radios do you currently have? What do you like and what don't you like about each one? Knowing this information could also help us point you in the correct direction for you.

[jgillaspy]

So, I got started in civilian radio as a prepper's communication choice. I'm no REAL prepper, but I do a little. I started w/GMRS because it was easy. After programming a non-part-95e HT and getting rather frustrated rather quickly (GMRS is pretty dead here in SATX) I started thinking about amateur radio. My dad was a ham and I learned to read a schematic, solder, etc. when I built his Heath Kit power supply for his 20M rig.

I started looking at the technician test and figured, with a little study, I could get that. I did and here I am. The HTs I have are ham radios so I've reprogrammed them and now also have an AnyTone AT-778UV as  mobile. Before I invested more money I wanted to see what all was out there, so digital ham entered the picture. All the digital choices will do analog as well, so I'm not giving up one for the other. I just want to make a good choice based on my circumstances.

I do plan on taking the General test, but just haven't studied enough yet, so currently I'm pretty much stuck in the UHF/VHF world. I have looked at a 10M mobile rig that can do SSB but not sure I really want to go that route either. Choices, choices. . .

JG

[tweiss3]

Sounds like any option is going to be an experience. The real question for you is, what are you expecting to get out of a digital mode? More traffic? Talking around the world? Something to tinker with? I'm afraid you will be disappointed if you expect to have a significant more amount of traffic. Many of the "north america" or "america link" groups don't ragchew, its 90 seconds on, make the contact, move on for someone else. If you want to talk to someone in another country, its great for that. Heck, there is a local multimode reflector (DMR, DStar & YSF all linked together) and there is less traffic on that then the analog repeaters. Just manage your expectations. You should also reach out to the local repeater owners and see what is available, many of the YSF are stuck on a single room, and the DMR repeaters have a pre-set of allowable groups/timeslots permitted.

As for your next radio, any of the main brands will be perfect for you. And for anything that is NOT DMR, I highly recommend spending the $25 for RT Systems programming software, its much much better than any other software in my experience.

Don't sleep on 6 meters either, you have full permissions there as well, though getting below 2 meters does get expensive quickly. I would suggest reaching out to the local radio groups as well, see where the activity is, maybe get a weekly rotation of nets to join.

[jgillaspy]

Really, I'm just exploring options and learning. From a prepping standpoint all of the digital, internet-connection options are gone anyway. The whole world is going "digital" so I'm exploring options. I don't want to go one direction and have to go another. As far as contacts go I have no expectations. I will look into the 6M stuff though.

JG

[gman1971]

TETRA is another option available, but is not very popular in the US. Its basically the big brother of DMR... 4 slot TDMA... 

Prepping and SHTF, you should probably use AM/SSB to establish contact, then use digital encrypted for trusted intercom. I think FM still has issues due to PL/DCS codes potentially preventing interoperability like AM/SSB would. 

Digital has other advantages over analog, that I use extensively, text messages and call alerts, along with radio checks and if you have a dispatch console or something like that you can do real time tracking of assets etc, OTAP... etc.

G.

[gman1971]

Digital radios work basically like a phone, except that YOU are the person in charge of managing the logistical/technical aspects of it as well. You have to manage contacts, talk groups, frequencies, etc... much the same way that when you sign up for T-Mobile or ATT cellphone, etc, they add your info to their database, thus effectively adding your "contact" to the database, and then handing you a phone with a number (same as handing you a radio with an ID ) that is programmed to work on their towers (frequencies/channels)

G.

[Lscott]

I know some operators get very annoyed when monitoring their favorite FM simplex frequencies when a digital station pops on on one. That's lead to digital voice operators to use "suggested" frequencies reserved just for digital voice modes.

What are the typical frequencies used for digital voice modes when using simplex? I found several recommendations for 2m and 70cm. It seems like there are only a few suggested frequencies. Since there are several digital voice modes used, (D-Star)(DMR)(Fusion)(P25)(NXDN) and some others, are separate simplex channels used for each or all lumped together?

 

 

 

[DeoVindice]

30 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I know some operators get very annoyed when monitoring their favorite FM simplex frequencies when a digital station pops on on one. That's lead to digital voice operators to use "suggested" frequencies reserved just for digital voice modes.

What are the typical frequencies used for digital voice modes when using simplex? I found several recommendations for 2m and 70cm. It seems like there are only a few suggested frequencies. Since there are several digital voice modes used, (D-Star)(DMR)(Fusion)(P25)(NXDN) and some others, are separate simplex channels used for each or all lumped together?

 

 

 

To be entirely honest, I just use 446.000 for P25 simplex. I have never heard anyone on 446.000 aside from a few friends (and a simplex repeater I stumbled across in southwestern Colorado). 146.52 either, for that matter. FM simplex is dead here.

[Lscott]

9 minutes ago, DeoVindice said:

To be entirely honest, I just use 446.000 for P25 simplex. I have never heard anyone on 446.000 aside from a few friends (and a simplex repeater I stumbled across in southwestern Colorado). 146.52 either, for that matter. FM simplex is dead here.

Yeah, simplex around here is sort of dead too. I very infrequently hear any CQ calls on 146.52, even when mobile, my primary operations. I try to respond to the 52 calls when mobile due to the low activity I observe.

I have radios for D-Star, DMR, P25 and NXDN so far. I'm was wondering what to use for simplex operations. Seems like just about everyone uses repeaters since they are typically linked. I wanted to include some simplex channels in the various radios I have to supplement the repeater channels.

That leads back to the thread's topic, pros and cons.

Talk groups and networks. I know on DMR that TG-99 is the talk group used for simplex operation, but what about the other modes?

This gets into the area where I've found separate networks, even for the same digital modes, where the talk groups are not entirely the same, however there has been progress in that area. Then there are the bridging issues. This all seems to be a very unnecessary complication. Here are some examples.

https://brandmeister.network/

https://dmr-marc.net/

https://w8cmn.net/mi5-sites-talkgroups/

http://www.nxdninfo.com/

https://w8cmn.net/p25/

Then the last point is usually you get just one digital mode per radio model or manufacture. I did hear about a couple of people that hacked the MD380 hardware where there is the possibility of getting a multi-mode digital radio without the astronomical cost from manufactures like Kenwood and their NX-5000 series multi mode radios along with the licensing crap that goes with it. I read somewhere the programming software for them is a POS.

That's another problem area. Some manufactures CPS, customer programming software, is rather easy to use and or well organized with a good help system. One of the very popular Chinese DMR radios their CPS sucks. It's buggy and the built in help is almost worthless since there is basically "maybe" a line or two describing a feature. The other choice is looking at a bunch of YouTube videos hoping the area one has an interest in gets covered. Other's like Kenwood keep their training materials locked up behind a "dealer" login portal. I suppose that's done to support their dealer network, they want to discourage customers from programming their own radios. and funnel business to the dealers.

A personal observation it seems most digital voice modes are mostly used on UHF. I'm assuming it's because you can find good commercial gear for UHF far easier, and cheaper, that on VHF. Second there is just simply more spectrum where people can spread out.

I've been looking for some select Kenwood VHF analog/digital radios for a while. The few I see on the major auction site usually are much more expensive than the UHF model, if you can find one at all. I'm looking at an NX-200-K2 at the moment if I can win the auction without paying a fortune for the radio to add to my "collection."

Around the Detroit area, where I'm at, there is little P25 activity and there is only one NXDN repeater listed for the whole state, and I don't think it's even linked into a network either.

[MichaelLAX]

Without getting into too long of a background explanation, I chose to experiment with DMR by purchasing the Radioddity RD-5R some years ago, as it was a clone of the Baofeng UV-5R case and I can easily use my existing accessories, primarily my extra-capacity batteries (it came with its own different style USB cable, that does not include a chip) and was only $70.

It is apparently based upon the Radioddity GD-77.

I can hit three DMR repeaters from my rooftop antenna being a member of the PAPA System.

I have enjoyed using it since that time, although it has two features missing from the GD-77 (probably to keep the market for the GD-77 active):

I cannot program a new TalkGroup from the keyboard; I must use the CPS software; and

It's memory is limited so I cannot store the complete Digital ID library and be able to see Ham callsigns instead of the Digital ID number.

There is an interesting side project online that has "hacked" the firmware and apparently opens up quite a bit of utility on this HT.  I have yet to try it out.

I have had simplex communications on 446.0 MHz here in Los Angeles.

[generalpain]

If a new ham came to me with the question about "which digital voice mode" to use, I would suggest looking up the repeaters in their area to see if there is a clear front-runner.

Around me, it's like

• 50% FM
• 40% DMR
• 10% all other digital voice modes

To me, it was simple-- I went with DMR because I wanted access to as many local repeaters as possible.

Of course, if you will mostly use a hotspot, then we're back to the original question.

[jgillaspy]

For the 2M band I have 3 x YSF, 2 x D-Star and 1 x DMR. 70CM is worse and nothing for 6M. Fusion it is. . . Gotta save up for that.

JG

[Lscott]

Sooner or later I should add a cheap Fusion digital radio to my collection. The GM club operates a wide area coverage repeater from the top of the now called GM headquarters building in downtown Detroit. Most people still call it the RenCen.

http://www.gmarc.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/RenCen-repeater-qsl-compressed.jpg

[wayoverthere]

9 hours ago, generalpain said:

If a new ham came to me with the question about "which digital voice mode" to use, I would suggest looking up the repeaters in their area to see if there is a clear front-runner.

Around me, it's like

• 50% FM
• 40% DMR
• 10% all other digital voice modes

To me, it was simple-- I went with DMR because I wanted access to as many local repeaters as possible.

Of course, if you will mostly use a hotspot, then we're back to the original question.

I think that's the biggest takeaway...what's prevalent where you are (or travel) and what's equipment availability like? P25 gear is mostly pretty pricey new, somewhat so used, and the equipment is often limited on flexibility (being commercial type gear), where gear running the other digital modes has varying levels of flexibility. Vfo, front panel programmability, etc.

I think the percentages here are like 50% straight fm, probably 30% p25 mixed mode, maybe 10% dmr and the rest a mix of the others.

[DeoVindice]

22 hours ago, Lscott said:

Yeah, simplex around here is sort of dead too. I very infrequently hear any CQ calls on 146.52, even when mobile, my primary operations. I try to respond to the 52 calls when mobile due to the low activity I observe.

I have radios for D-Star, DMR, P25 and NXDN so far. I'm was wondering what to use for simplex operations. Seems like just about everyone uses repeaters since they are typically linked. I wanted to include some simplex channels in the various radios I have to supplement the repeater channels.

That leads back to the thread's topic, pros and cons.

Talk groups and networks. I know on DMR that TG-99 is the talk group used for simplex operation, but what about the other modes?

This gets into the area where I've found separate networks, even for the same digital modes, where the talk groups are not entirely the same, however there has been progress in that area. Then there are the bridging issues. This all seems to be a very unnecessary complication. Here are some examples.

https://brandmeister.network/

https://dmr-marc.net/

https://w8cmn.net/mi5-sites-talkgroups/

http://www.nxdninfo.com/

https://w8cmn.net/p25/

Then the last point is usually you get just one digital mode per radio model or manufacture. I did hear about a couple of people that hacked the MD380 hardware where there is the possibility of getting a multi-mode digital radio without the astronomical cost from manufactures like Kenwood and their NX-5000 series multi mode radios along with the licensing crap that goes with it. I read somewhere the programming software for them is a POS.

That's another problem area. Some manufactures CPS, customer programming software, is rather easy to use and or well organized with a good help system. One of the very popular Chinese DMR radios their CPS sucks. It's buggy and the built in help is almost worthless since there is basically "maybe" a line or two describing a feature. The other choice is looking at a bunch of YouTube videos hoping the area one has an interest in gets covered. Other's like Kenwood keep their training materials locked up behind a "dealer" login portal. I suppose that's done to support their dealer network, they want to discourage customers from programming their own radios. and funnel business to the dealers.

A personal observation it seems most digital voice modes are mostly used on UHF. I'm assuming it's because you can find good commercial gear for UHF far easier, and cheaper, that on VHF. Second there is just simply more spectrum where people can spread out.

I've been looking for some select Kenwood VHF analog/digital radios for a while. The few I see on the major auction site usually are much more expensive than the UHF model, if you can find one at all. I'm looking at an NX-200-K2 at the moment if I can win the auction without paying a fortune for the radio to add to my "collection."

Around the Detroit area, where I'm at, there is little P25 activity and there is only one NXDN repeater listed for the whole state, and I don't think it's even linked into a network either.

Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about simplex frequency selection. 446-447 MHz is generally accepted for UHF simplex so I'd program in some frequencies in that range. In the exceedingly unlikely case you encounter analog activity on one, just move to another.

We use TG1, NAC 293, and Digital Squelch (EFJ's term for it...), on P25 simplex. It's functionally identical to CSQ.

Unfortunately, KPG-D1NK has an awful reputation for being clunky and slow. It's not like the older spreadsheet-based Kenwood software.

I have an NX-200K and like it pretty well. It's not something I'd use for mission-critical (antenna orientation and lack of channel selector lockout) but for business, amateur, and scanning, it's a good unit. I particularly like the depth of options permitted by the menu system, including on-the-fly audio setting changes. They're now cheaper than TK-2180s despite being far more full-featured radios.

If you purchase an NX-200, shoot me a PM. I have some manuals that will help you get the unit set up and performing at its best.

[Lscott]

9 minutes ago, DeoVindice said:

Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about simplex frequency selection. 446-447 MHz is generally accepted for UHF simplex so I'd program in some frequencies in that range. In the exceedingly unlikely case you encounter analog activity on one, just move to another.

We use TG1, NAC 293, and Digital Squelch (EFJ's term for it...), on P25 simplex. It's functionally identical to CSQ.

Unfortunately, KPG-D1NK has an awful reputation for being clunky and slow. It's not like the older spreadsheet-based Kenwood software.

I have an NX-200K and like it pretty well. It's not something I'd use for mission-critical (antenna orientation and lack of channel selector lockout) but for business, amateur, and scanning, it's a good unit. I particularly like the depth of options permitted by the menu system, including on-the-fly audio setting changes. They're now cheaper than TK-2180s despite being far more full-featured radios.

If you purchase an NX-200, shoot me a PM. I have some manuals that will help you get the unit set up and performing at its best.

That's some useful advice about simplex. That's what I was looking for.

I have the Kenwood UHF TK-5320 radio, 400 to 470 band split, and use KPG-112D to program it. I would like to find the VHF TK-5220 if I can find a good deal on one in good condition.

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/TK-5220_5320_Specsheet.pdf

I do have a used NX-340(U), no display HT, I purchased and a used NX-820HG mobile I was gifted by a buddy that has no use for digital comm's. Both are the 400 to 470 band split I believe. I also have the software to program them.

https://pdfs.kenwoodproducts.com/54/NX-240V&340UBrochure.pdf

https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/10_NX-720HG&820HGBrochure.pdf

I would like to get an HT with a display. The older NX-200/300 look nice. The newer NX-205G/305G look good too but I only have the HPG-111D V4.7 which doesn't show the 205G/305G types as models it can program. I'm trying to get my hands on V5.21 of the software, which I hope does do the newer models. So far no luck with the zero cost option. Until I can get the software that handles them I'm not going to purchase any of the newer models.

I also picked up a new in the box UHF amp, BTECH U25D, at a swap for a good price, about half of new, that should work with analog and digital modes. Good to boost an HT running mobile or as a base.

https://baofengtech.com/product/amp-u25d/

https://www.miklor.com/COM/Review_DMR-Amps.php