Digital Voice Mode on GMRS - Possible Rules?

[DONE]

2 hours ago, gortex2 said:

DMR will only increase the channels if used in TDMA.  Rarely that happens. And why should P25 or NXDN be pushed aside for DMR ? That's the issue. Only so many channels for repeaters. And why should an analog user who has had a repeater on the air for 20+ years be interfered with because someone bought a license and put up a DMR repeater in the same area. I know this can happen in Analog also. Still doesn't make it right. Linking should not be part of the digital standard. 

Again I get baffled by trying to make GMRS another ham band. Its one service that has some basic rules that anyone can spend the money on and get a license and use. As said earlier there are many places you can go use DMR, Fusion, P25, and NXDN outside of the GMRS service. 

First WHY would you NOT use both slots of DMR if you had that option.  Stay with analog and be done with it.

P25 and NXDN should be pushed aside because neither make a real contribution to the basic operation of the service and provide a second talk path to a single repeater pair.  As I said before, I would PREFER P25 as it at least would increase range somewhat, and the audio is better in my opinion than DMR. But yes, I run it on HAM and am fine with that.

Why should a repeater owner that has had a repeater on the air for twenty years...... simple.  When the FCC removed the direct assignment of repeater pairs from an individuals license and allowed ANYONE with a license to use any pair they desired, they created the initial problem.  And we DO, as mentioned, face that issue currently.  It's nothing new.  Being reasonable and showing good faith, the new repeater owner should choose an different pair than the guy down the street with the analog repeater.  Pure and simple.  We self regulate, and as such actually need to do just that. 

I didn't say that linking should be part of any standard, but if we as the license holders are going to petition for a change, that is something that needs changed.  It needs to be either ZERO linking or linking.  No more of this stuff of it saying don't' link with the PSTN specifically, which we are or are not depending on what day it is and who's defining PSTN. 

Not trying to turn GMRS into ham radio.  Trying to put forward some path forward to newer technology within the service to make it better.  If you look at the definition of GMRS, then you know we aren't technically within that definition to begin with.  Some of us ARE using it as hobby radio.  And operate within the confines of the regulations other than that.  Right now we are experiencing a boom in licenses and activity.  We make it better and there will be more interest.  I have said this to ham operators with big heads to bring them down a notch or two, but it's still the truth.  Ham radio is now defined by people that studied for 3 hours to take a test they had all the answers to the questions from a book written by Gorden West.  I will add this to that statement.  We didn't even need to take the test to get our license.  Of course we SHARE our bandwidth with another unlicensed service that the hams don't have to contend with. 

 

And don't forget, this is ALL a discussion of peoples OPINION.  Not a discussion board for creating a petition to the FCC for a change. 

I forgot that EVERYTHING is now political and NO ONE can have a differing OPINION than the ones held by a select few who want to MANDATE their opinion is the only one that matters.  AKA, discuss NOTHING, fall into line and do NOT ever have a differing view.   Sorry for the mix up. 

 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

NO ONE can have a differing OPINION than the ones held by a select few who want to MANDATE their opinion

 

Man... that drives me nuts. Mandate what they like and ban what they don't. People need to learn that diversity of thought is critical and their opinions really don't matter.

 

That why I say down with DMR. Long live P25!

[gortex2]

I wasn't trying to mandate anything. I just don't get the reasoning. Yes digital is the new age but why not say we need digital on CB, Marine and other services also then. GMRS has been around for a long time. With limited channels I don't think digital is the best option. It further limits the usage of the channels and causes more confusion. How many posts are there daily on folks who can't get the repeater to work ? Now add DMR, or P25 and its a mess. I cant even listen to most of the ham DMR stuff because of how bad some of it sounds now. Hot spots, CCR DMR radios and poor backhaul creates a lot of audio issues. Done right I agree DMR, P25 and NXDN sounds good but in an "open" service with no one being the "buck stops here" there is no management of that. This is the issue amateur radio has. Some clubs public best practices, or recommended settings but I still get alot of ID1 pop up on my display at times. I think the only way digital would work and work well with GMRS is to dedicate 1 or 2 channels to DMR that are not current channels. Which the FCC will never do. Then again taking some amateur 440 channels away and giving GMRS second use on them seems prudent. I work in the field and deal with P25 daily so I get the advantages of digital when done right. If It was allowed I'd have a P25 repeater system up already. As a public safety users I'd push P25 over DMR as I could use all my public safety radios. In the end I dont think the FCC will ever change the rules. Look at the mess they already created with some need a license and some don't on the same channels. My guess is another 10 years it will be just like CB because there is no structure or anyone helping direct the hobby/service. 

[tweiss3]

9 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

Man... that drives me nuts. Mandate what they like and ban what they don't. People need to learn that diversity of thought is critical and their opinions really don't matter.

 

That why I say down with DMR. Long live P25!

Problem with P25, is you can only get very narrow equivalency if you go trunking (Phase II), where as DMR does it 100% of the time, and NXDN can run two separate repeaters side by side in the same bandwidth as a single P25 or DMR repeater.  

[gortex2]

I was at a shop in the early days of NXDN for ICOM. We took 2 25khz channels and ended up with 8 6.25khz channels. Issue was filtering and combiners. Ended up putting 4 repeaters over the facility and using the others in simplex mode. Was a cool idea for sure. Never dealt with any of the NXDN trunking stuff but hear it works well. Not sure if its still using 6.25 or 12.5 though. 

[Lscott]

Some of the above sounds like a rehash of topics discussed before. I'm surprised more haven't downloaded a file I posted on 7/25, 3 so far and I was one of them to test it, in this thread detailing my thoughts on the topic along with a lot of links to prior background material. In there I go over some points where a couple of modes might be a good choice even if they are not the current favorite and why. The idea is what could be proposed in a filling with the FCC they will seriously consider. Before that happens there has to be sound arguments why it can and should be done.

[BoxCar]

The biggest hurdle to digital is none of it is compatible with another scheme. Analog is FM and that's it. Yes, there is AM but AM lacks the spectral efficiency of FM.

[Lscott]

47 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

The biggest hurdle to digital is none of it is compatible with another scheme. Analog is FM and that's it. Yes, there is AM but AM lacks the spectral efficiency of FM.

That will be one of the issues with trying to get the FCC to approve the idea. There is an existing group of FM only users and how would allowing digital affect them? Many, I would guess, likely wouldn't have any need or interest in getting digital enabled radios. The current FM only radios fits their needs as is. The FCC would need to balance any proposed rule changes against the interest of those users. That will be the tricky part.

[KAF6045]

5 hours ago, gortex2 said:

I wasn't trying to mandate anything. I just don't get the reasoning. Yes digital is the new age but why not say we need digital on CB, Marine and other services also then.

I believe there ARE studies on converting/adding digital modes to the Marine Service.

Won't happen for Air Service -- Air craft use AM as it allows other calls to be heard through an active communication... Emergency calls, etc. aren't blocked by FM's capture effect.

[DONE]

I too think that we have little chance of getting the FCC to grant digital modulation schemes to GMRS. 

The one possibility where it COULD happen is if the FCC decides to make GMRS 12.5 Khz channel widths mandatory on all GMRS frequencies.

From my experience with this in the commercial realm, we will sell a 25 to 50% decrease in coverage area for a given repeater.  At that point the MAY allow DMR as an equivalency to the 12.5Khz analog move, but even then I don't hold out a lot of hope.  

I think it's gonna depend on if we continue to see the level of growth in license holders or not.  And it may not happen until the first go around of renewals in 10 years.  GMRS is currently growing in leaps and bounds.  But we saw that in the 90's with ham radio as well and now most ham repeaters are quiet.  Will we see that with GMRS as well, who knows.  I would like to say no.  But I would be lying if I said I see it hanging on with this growth rate for that length of time.

 

[Lscott]

12 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

I too think that we have little chance of getting the FCC to grant digital modulation schemes to GMRS.

Some said the same thing with FM on 11M CB. Well it happened. I think it all depends on how it's proposed to the FCC. If it's too disruptive or requires the FCC to make major significant changes to the rules it likely won't happen. I did post, 7/25, in this thread a while back some ideas on how it could be done, in a downloadable file (GMRS Digital Voice - 20220803.pdf) since it's rather long, what the FCC is likely to consider.

[KAF6045]

13 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

The one possibility where it COULD happen is if the FCC decides to make GMRS 12.5 Khz channel widths mandatory on all GMRS frequencies.

From my experience with this in the commercial realm, we will sell a 25 to 50% decrease in coverage area for a given repeater.  At that point the MAY allow DMR as an equivalency to the 12.5Khz analog move, but even then I don't hold out a lot of hope.  

I think it's gonna depend on if we continue to see the level of growth in license holders or not.  And it may not happen until the first go around of renewals in 10 years.  GMRS is currently growing in leaps and bounds.  But we saw that in the 90's with ham radio as well and now most ham repeaters are quiet.  Will we see that with GMRS as well, who knows.  I would like to say no.  But I would be lying if I said I see it hanging on with this growth rate for that length of time.

DMR /is/ a 12.5kHz service, using two 6.25kHz time slots. Making GMRS an NFM service essentially takes out the "interstitial" frequencies (which currently are lower power and overlap the primary/repeater channels). They'd just be very tight packed non-overlapping channels, and would probably be up'd to full power (50W) for GMRS.

"first round of renewals in 10 years"????

My GMRS license is already past its third (and likely 6th) renewal. The ULS system doesn't have the history from the paper-only days but shows my license was renewed in 2010, 2015, and 2020. It most likely had renewals in 2005, 2000, and maybe first issued in 1995 as that is the time period of my first GMRS radio -- the Maxon GMRS 210+3 radio (at the time, a $300 HT). GMRS existed in the 60s already (as Class A of the Citizen's Radio Service; CB is Class D). It was highly restricted as to usage: basically one requested a pair of channels for the license (yes, only TWO of the eight primaries were allowed), and communication between different licenses was rare, base to base was prohibited, mostly one was to talk to family members residing with the licensee.

[Gearhead]

KAF6045  

Haven't seen anyone mention the CRS in years.  I remember the CRS and the much more restrictive rules for all the classes including 11 meters.