FCC part 95.1751

[Adamdaj]

I started monitor the LAW ENFORCEMENT EMERGENCY RADIO NETWORK on GMRS and I notice No one ever gives their proper FCC issued Call Sign. I know unit number or Tactical doesn't comply FCC rules. Are Public Safety Officials exempt from identifying their station? If not then I could, but I won't contact the FCC. One the FCC has more important issues to contend with. Two I also been known to bend or stretch the rules when it come two way radio.  However I do my best to abide by the rules set fouth by the FCC.

[OffRoaderX]

Are you saying that they are using GMRS as their primary comms? Are you sure you arent listening to a relay/rebroadcast from their primary frequency to GMRS?

Or, are you sure they aren't using FRS radios, which would require no license? 

[gortex2]

For once I agree with OffRoader and we need more info. What is LAW ENFORCEMENT EMERGENCY RADIO NETWORK ? 

 

[KAF6045]

Plenty of links /defining/ LEERN acronym, but few actually referencing users.

I find Ottawa County OHIO using 462.675 for Fire 13&14 (low power&simplex)

However, all references to actual users are in Ohio, and are on VHF (154MHz -- very close to MURS frequencies, no where near GMRS).

 

[Lscott]

3 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

I started monitor the LAW ENFORCEMENT EMERGENCY RADIO NETWORK on GMRS and I notice No one ever gives their proper FCC issued Call Sign. I know unit number or Tactical doesn't comply FCC rules. Are Public Safety Officials exempt from identifying their station? If not then I could, but I won't contact the FCC. One the FCC has more important issues to contend with. Two I also been known to bend or stretch the rules when it come two way radio.  However I do my best to abide by the rules set fouth by the FCC.

You sure they aren’t using plain old FRS radios. Both FRS and GMRS share the same exact frequencies. Difference is FRS is limited to 2 watts on most channels and call signs are not required.

[WRKC935]

LEERN is 154.935.  I am confused.

Now I have seen where stupid radio tech's had put 151.625, an itinerant frequency, it a 100 watt repeater and was using it as a link.  But That got taken care of real quick when I called the department and told them what someone had done to them.  They pushed back a bit, but when I told them whatever and I would be calling the FCC they saw the light. 

So my next question would be, Ohio and some other states have a licensed VHF frequency that is statewide and referred to as LEERN.  Is this a statewide LEO channel actually used by actual cops or is this some SAR / EMCOMM group with no official public safety affiliation playing cops and robbers with FRS/GMRS radios?

[WRAM370]

I don’t know if these “Leern” or “Learn” GMRS systems are commonplace throughout the country, but there seems to be one in the south Jersey region (southern New Jersey, for those not from the area). The people go “10-8” and “10-7”, they will be “10-17” or “10-25”…blah blah blah. This is a GMRS repeater on 462.575. It is not a public safety radio system. It is a privately owned repeater.

I never hear a callsign from these people, only unit numbers (“825 10-8”). I don’t know if this is a single repeater or a linked network, but what I hear is at least 50+ air miles away and the owner seems to have no concerns for others that would like to use that repeater pair, so I imagine he is ignorant and inconsiderate. I also believe this is a “subscription” repeater, which means you have to pay to use it, so I don’t think he is offering any sort of “community service” with this excessively large footprint repeater.

As for law enforcement, or any public safety employees, having exemptions to ID on GMRS, the answer is no. And I don’t know if this LEERN or LEARN system has much to do with active members of public safety, or if this is just a bunch of wannabes and whackers. Just like the wannabes I hear on ham radio who announce they are “on radio”, pretending to be signing on for duty with a dispatch system. I can pretty much guarantee when the SHTF and “when all else fails”, these are the people who will fold immediately under pressure, because they are only about the appearance, and not about the true courage and integrity that is required to rise to an occasion. 

I can tell you with much certainty that those in public safety don’t generally go around announcing they are “10-8” if they key up a GMRS or FRS radio, and they don’t announce they are “10-17” to their local grocery store, as I have heard from this group. In fact, the normal behavior of those in public safety, particularly those in law enforcement, is to stay well below the radar, especially when your address is publicly listed by the FCC. 

Whackers, wannabes, strokers, foamers…they all seem to be drawn to radios for some reason. I often think it is because it gives them something to hold in their hand.

[KAF6045]

The only 462 frequencies listed by the FCC in https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-90/subpart-B are squeezed into the range 462.9375..462.99375 (6.25kHz bands -- really "narrow band"), with matching 467MHz repeater inputs. Further down it is stated that these are normally MED frequencies.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-90/subpart-N/section-90.425 covers the ID requirements.

Quote

(d) General exemptions. A station need not transmit identification if:

(2) It is a mobile station in the Public Safety Pool using F1E or G1E emission.

However, use of GMRS frequencies does not appear in the sections of Part-90 that I skimmed through.

[axorlov]

It could be the bah-offengd bought from amazon or ebay with "channels" preprogrammed into it. Original poster did not identify the location or the frequency.

[Adamdaj]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:27 PM, Lscott said:

You sure they aren’t using plain old FRS radios. Both FRS and GMRS share the same exact frequencies. Difference is FRS is limited to 2 watts on most channels and call signs are not required.

The LEERN SYSTEM uses repeater set on (462.575) CH 16 with multiple repeater sites. Every time a LEERN MEMBER keys up, the only identification is, membership number/unit. That's not exactly going by FCC's R's&R's in Part 95 E. I don't I ever heard anyone give their FCC assing Call Sign. To answer your question, from I hear they don't use for any Law Enforce activity, just chit-chat as anyone would do. The one member 820,to me he comes accross as being arrogant. I really wonder if his Law Enforcement Career was a short one, because he sure thinks above everyone that isn't in Law Enforcement.

[Adamdaj]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:25 PM, OffRoaderX said:

Are you saying that they are using GMRS as their primary comms? Are you sure you arent listening to a relay/rebroadcast from their primary frequency to GMRS?

Or, are you sure they aren't using FRS radios, which would require no license? 

Nope They don't rebroadcast , that's clearly a violation under PART  95 and 97. The Members of that organization neglect follow protocal when it comes to ID ing with FCC call sign. I don't if they exempt for given their call-sign because of being active or retire law enforcement. Which from what I, there are no exemption for one.

73

WQAI363

[Adamdaj]

On 8/17/2022 at 8:16 AM, WRAM370 said:

I don’t know if these “Leern” or “Learn” GMRS systems are commonplace throughout the country, but there seems to be one in the south Jersey region (southern New Jersey, for those not from the area). The people go “10-8” and “10-7”, they will be “10-17” or “10-25”…blah blah blah. This is a GMRS repeater on 462.575. It is not a public safety radio system. It is a privately owned repeater.

I never hear a callsign from these people, only unit numbers (“825 10-8”). I don’t know if this is a single repeater or a linked network, but what I hear is at least 50+ air miles away and the owner seems to have no concerns for others that would like to use that repeater pair, so I imagine he is ignorant and inconsiderate. I also believe this is a “subscription” repeater, which means you have to pay to use it, so I don’t think he is offering any sort of “community service” with this excessively large footprint repeater.

As for law enforcement, or any public safety employees, having exemptions to ID on GMRS, the answer is no. And I don’t know if this LEERN or LEARN system has much to do with active members of public safety, or if this is just a bunch of wannabes and whackers. Just like the wannabes I hear on ham radio who announce they are “on radio”, pretending to be signing on for duty with a dispatch system. I can pretty much guarantee when the SHTF and “when all else fails”, these are the people who will fold immediately under pressure, because they are only about the appearance, and not about the true courage and integrity that is required to rise to an occasion. 

I can tell you with much certainty that those in public safety don’t generally go around announcing they are “10-8” if they key up a GMRS or FRS radio, and they don’t announce they are “10-17” to their local grocery store, as I have heard from this group. In fact, the normal behavior of those in public safety, particularly those in law enforcement, is to stay well below the radar, especially when your address is publicly listed by the FCC. 

Whackers, wannabes, strokers, foamers…they all seem to be drawn to radios for some reason. I often think it is because it gives them something to hold in their hand.

Unit 820 Name I won't say, but I wish I could have him hauled in impersonating a Law Enforcement Officer because he is very arrogant. I won't excuse myself for keying on that system not knowing that it a closed system,but at that I didn't know. Yes I have keyed it several time just to talk a friend who I thought that we were going his repeater. Unit 822 or 820 chewed me out over the phone and threaten me. 

[Lscott]

46 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

The LEERN SYSTEM uses repeater set on (462.575) CH 16 with multiple repeater sites. Every time a LEERN MEMBER keys up, the only identification is, membership number/unit. That's not exactly going by FCC's R's&R's in Part 95 E. I don't I ever heard anyone give their FCC assing Call Sign. To answer your question, from I hear they don't use for any Law Enforce activity, just chit-chat as anyone would do. The one member 820,to me he comes accross as being arrogant. I really wonder if his Law Enforcement Career was a short one, because he sure thinks above everyone that isn't in Law Enforcement.

Then the next question being is the frequency "grandfathered" by any chance? The local GMRS repeater by me is the "backup" repeater for the city's fire department. I don't think they currently have a license to use it for fire department operations so it's being used by general licensed GMRS operators. But then again I haven't check to see about any old licenses either. In your case if the frequency is in fact grandfathered in it could be, due to some FCC rule, they don't need to ID. This will take more research on your part. I would dig into this a lot more before filing any complaints or calling them.

[Adamdaj]

14 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Then the next question being is the frequency "grandfathered" by any chance? The local GMRS repeater by me is the "backup" repeater for the city's fire department. I don't think they currently have a license to use it for fire department operations so it's being used by general licensed GMRS operators. But then again I haven't check to see about any old licenses either. In your case if the frequency is in fact grandfathered in it could be, due to some FCC rule, they don't need to ID. This will take more research on your part. I would dig into this a lot more before filing any complaints or calling them.

The frequency is (462.575 + 5MHZ ), but from what I understand about the FCC's grandfather rules,each employee is covered under the business license. Only the Business has to ID.

However, LEERN is an Organization and not a Business, each member is require to identify themselves with their FCC assign Call Sign. 

I'm not fill a complaint, because it may or maynot be a violation which the FCC has more serious issues to tackle. Then again who really follows rules all the not just with Radio Communication, but in General ?

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

However, LEERN is an Organization and not a Business,

They might call themselves an organization however they can still be registered as a business for regulatory, tax and liability reasons. I would still recommend you research it bit more if you’re going to file a complaint.

Yes the FCC tends to ignore small rule violations. They don’t have the manpower to pursue every rule infraction. Does that make it right? No, but it’s just how things work currently. Of course that can change at anytime if enough licensed GMRS users file a complaint, or the FCC decides to make it a priority. You do need to be sure of your facts before hand.

 

 

[KAF6045]

6 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

However, LEERN is an Organization and not a Business, each member is require to identify themselves with their FCC assign Call Sign.

Technically, LEERN is NOT an organization. It is an acronym for Law Enforcement Emergency Radio Network. For Ohio, I find:

Quote

Law Enforcement Common

These frequencies are used daily for law enforcement interoperability. The LEERN frequencies are licensed to the Ohio State Highway Patrol, and tests are conducted on LEERN 1 each morning on the hour corresponding to the district number (District 1 at 1:00 am, District 2 at 2:00 am, and so on). State Band and NALEMARS are typically licensed to individual agencies as needed.

Frequency	License	Type	Tone	Alpha Tag	Description	Mode	Tag
154.93500	Varies	BM	CSQ	LEERN 1	Law Enforcement Emergency Radio Network - Primary	FMN	Law Tac
154.68000	Varies	BM	CSQ	LEERN 2	Law Enforcement Emergency Radio Network - Alternate	FMN	Law Tac
155.37000	Varies	BM	CSQ	State Band	Interagency point to point	FMN	Law Talk

... And Google ONLY finds entries for Ohio.

At best, I can only suggest reporting this group to actual law enforcement (state level perhaps) as "impersonating law enforcement personnel over GMRS radio frequencies". Provide any names you've captured, along with the location/area covered by the repeater they are using.

{Note: there is a wide coverage repeater on "channel 16" in Grand Rapids that I've been trying to figure out... The traffic, at least for today, seemed to involve paid parking sites and whether someone had a valid permit to park in one. At first I thought it might have been the air port, since I was only a few miles from it, but when they mentioned some tie-up at an intersection it was downtown, twice as far as the air port. And again, no call signs were noticed [it may have been automated/morse while I was shopping] for a grand-fathered government or [since I think the parking lots are contracted out] business).

 

 

[Adamdaj]

I sicerely appologize for classifying LEERN as an Organization. Maybe I did wasted everyone's time for what I have posted, when I really don't have any knowledge of LEERN. I do know that LEERN has some non Law Enforcement individuals who are members. That's the only thing that I'm sure of. Then again I maybe 100% wrong on rules and regulations.

My first expierence using was back 1993, where the Town Watch that was a member of switch from CB to GMRS. Only two members held licenses and the membership Piggy Backed. Of course, I know now that's a technical violation, at lease in today's standards. But I do know that repeater that LEERN has should ID even if members are not required.

[WRKC935]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:08 PM, Adamdaj said:

Unit 820 Name I won't say, but I wish I could have him hauled in impersonating a Law Enforcement Officer because he is very arrogant. I won't excuse myself for keying on that system not knowing that it a closed system,but at that I didn't know. Yes I have keyed it several time just to talk a friend who I thought that we were going his repeater. Unit 822 or 820 chewed me out over the phone and threaten me. 

Interesting.  With the latest batch of regulations, you CAN have a private repeater, but you don't get exclusive use of the frequency. 

I ran into a guy here sort of locally that had a BUNCH or repeaters listed on here that were stale.  And in fact never really existed.  And he was running a business trying to sell air time on GMRS.  That was when I decided that full free open access was the ONLY way to put up a GMRS repeater and I put up three.  He was NOT happy, and I really don't care.  But if I were in the position that you are currently in, because I am the way I am, I would park a DB-420 at 240 feet and locate the repeater about 10 feet from it and have it force ID every 10 minutes. Different PL of course, but that's just me.

Now this chewing out and threats??? Karen's are EVERYWHERE, even in GMRS radio.  But the threats are interesting.  Are we talking threats of contacting the FCC or threats of violence / arrest or similar?  At that point if the guy IS a part of law enforcement, then there is a whole other level of illegal crap going on.  And at that point a letter to the state with recordings (if legal in your state) to the State's Attorney General are certainly in order.  But I would need to know what was said.  If the guy was threatening arrest based on you communicating on some 'public safety' radio system then you include the FCC in the letters going out. 

As mentioned before, I have seen radio tech's pull frequencies out of their butts for applications where they should NOT have been used.  I mentioned 151.625 before.  That is a standard low power (2 watt) simplex only frequency.  Some clown radio guy was using it for public safety dispatch on a 100 watt repeater.  And the department got told about it.  If this department has gotten similar treatment from some radio tech, they need to be made aware of it.  And the FCC needs notified.  But if this guy KNOWS what he's doing, and thinks he can threaten people,,, that's a real problem. 

[WRAM370]

The OP references 462.575, and I believe he is hearing the same GMRS repeater I mentioned in my previous post. I don’t know the exactly location, but it is in the south Jersey area, east of Philadelphia Pa. If the OP would like to confirm that as correct, that would help clear up some confusion.

If this is the repeater he is talking about, it is solely a GMRS repeater, not some public safety radio system, and not any sort of organization that has legitimate ties to public safety. It is simply a pay-to-play GMRS repeater that has wide coverage. If the owner was at one time, employed in public safety, we can only be thankful he is no longer involved in that field.

There is no listing for this repeater on this site or others, as far as I know. There is a listing for a repeater in Delaware County PA that calls itself “LEARN South”, and I recall seeing at least one other repeater that called itself LEARN, which is some nonsensical reference to law enforcement, but has nothing to do with actual law enforcement or any other public safety concern. In the case of the “LEARN South” repeater, I believe the owner has a part time job related to the public safety field, but in no way does this repeater have any direct connection to any public safety activity or government agency. These guys simply use the acronym as a means of propping up their own self-esteem, which is why I used the terms whacker, wannabe, foamers, strokers in my previous post. I forgot to mention posers. Very similar psychology to ham radio operators that would purchase a badge with “Radio Operator” embossed upon it. Don’t forget to purchase the handsome wallet that can hold the badge, giving you even more authority when you “whip it out”.

Again if the OP is talking about the same 462.575 repeater, and he references the owner 820 (I said 825 in my previous post…820, 825, whatever it takes), I have heard this guy argue with, and threaten, people who have put up their own repeaters, because I believe he runs a community tone panel with many tones, and that makes it difficult for someone to put up a repeater without “getting into” this guy’s repeater. I can hit this repeater with a handheld inside my house, some 40-50 miles away, so it is excessive in it’s coverage…IMHO.

If that is the same person, I mentioned before that this man is arrogant and ignorant, and wants to control this repeater pair in order to force people to pay him for access. Such behavior amongst humans is pretty commonplace, and doesn’t impact me at all, but the OP started the thread wondering how they get away without ID’ing, and if they were actual law enforcement personnel, would they have an exemption from ID’ing. To my knowledge, from those I have heard on there, they are not employed in public safety (maybe I heard one use who was, but others I know are not, as I have heard them on the ham bands as well), and no such exemption would exist for members of public safety. This is GMRS, and all are subject to the same rules. The only place where law enforcement has an exemption is at the local Stop-N-Rob where they don’t have to pay for their coffee.

And I seriously doubt the FCC would care about the lack of ID’ing on this, or any other GMRS repeater. The FCC only serves special interests of corporations like Motorola. It does not care about the citizens of the United States of America. The guy who owns this repeater is just a flawed individual who equates having a large footrprint repeater to compensating for shortcomings in his own life. As this individual would say when signing off…”820 10-7”

[Adamdaj]

I know that there's NO such thing as a FREE LUNCH or RIDE, which I totally agree with.  I also fully comprehend, that it requiers money to maintain a repeater or repeater systems. I just had the feelling when spoke with Ed aka 820 or 822, he seemed like an arrogant person. I will admit that I was out of line for ignoring for Ed's request for me to stay off the repeater. However, I wouldn't mind paying atlease  $30.00 a month , because unlike  bills that must be paid in or to live, something such as supporting the system's up keep , dues should be negotiable. I mean dues still need to paid, but  keep it to minimum at $30.00 a month.