WRKC935

I am assuming that you are running a ham radio type controller on the repeater. Commercial repeaters, at least the Motorola stuff will hold off on running the ID until the channel is clear and if someone keys during the repeater ID it will stop and allow the traffic to pass and wait. Mind you that's the IDer that's built into the repeater and is programmed when you setup the other stuff in the repeater. I know that ham controllers will force the ID on the air. Some of them will ID at a lower audio level in the back ground, others will just interrupt the traffic. Of course on HAM radio, the chances of life safety or any sort of priority traffic being interrupted are typically low. With commercial and of course public safety traffic, it's not that way. But the cops and firemen don't really need a repeater controller that keys up and voice ID's with time, temperature, city and state location, PL in use, or any of the other crap that hams have announced on their machines. My machines are all Motorola branded and CW ID from the repeater. The two that have linking controllers do talk. The GMRS link machine will announce when it connects and disconnects. The P25link ham repeater will announce the active talkgroup if certain talk groups it works on when it's keyed for those talk groups. But even those CW ID with stripped PL because I just don't want to hear it. Ham's take the IDing every 10 minutes to an extreme level in some cases. Other hams will get on you, some will even chastise you for forgetting to ID, like it's going to effect them and their license if you get caught not doing it. GMRS isn't that way that I have seen. We remind people when we give them permission to access our repeaters to remember to ID properly, but no one is on there playing radio cop demanding that people ID. Ham unfortunately is that way. I remember getting notices from a local OO when that was still a thing not long after I got my ham license. He was one of those pricks that was mad at the world, the league and the FCC that a no code license had been created. I had a no code license and he didn't like that at all. So when he put his OO (official observer) hat, if you were a no code tech, at 10 minutes and 30 seconds, he grabbed his pen and started writing out a notice for you. And this was to the point that we all thought (the no code license holders) he was autistic or a radio Nazi.

There is something else that I believe contributes to the GMRS interest exceeding the interest in Ham radio. That's the persona of HAM. Ham radio in at least some instances has been portrayed as nerdy. It's connected to big towers in the yard with big antenna's on top of them. Have you ever even seen GMRS portrayed in a TV show or film? If it's radio related, it's always ham. It's some desk full of radios typically with the operator being some level of eccentric, or otherwise odd socially. Since GMRS isn't put on display in any fashion, people don't understand it, and therefore don't believe it's going to make other people think they are some mad scientist if they get involved with it.

It sounds like you are doing range tests from a vehicle. First issue with a yagi, it's directional. Please don't be offended if you knew that. And I am working from an internet post here so I don't 100% understand what's going on. It doesn't seem like you are trying to take to or hear a specific repeater, but that might not be the case. Because the yagi is directional it's only going to work good in one direction. The higher the gain of a yagi, the tighter the front end of it is and the narrower the pattern, meaning a narrower path of coverage. Second thing is are you testing from a vehicle with a portable or a mobile radio with a mounted antenna. Might seem like a silly question, but with all the BS radio distance ratings of radios, if you are new to this and have unreasonable expectations based on what the box or the manufactures advertisements indicate, you certainly will NOT be the first to be dissatisfied with the real world performance.

Straight forward instructions here download the image from elsewhere here on the site download and install WinSCP on your computer download the .sh file below open the .sh file with wordpad on your PC and edit the NODE NUMBER and PASSWORD with the information you got from the site. rename the file once edited and saved to 'repeaterfinder.sh' follow the directions for creating your SD card for the Raspberry Pi. insert the card in the Pi and boot the Pi up. Login to the Pi with the standard credentials provided in the network book (this is also downloaded from this site) Once the Pi is booted and connected to the network you PC running WinSCP is on, connect to the Pi with WinSCP via the IP address of the Pi. Once you are logged in, you will need to copy the 'repeaterfinder.sh' file to the /home/repeater/ directory. When you have copied the file to the Pi, you will need to login to the Pi and navigate to the above directory. Once there type ./repeaterfinder.sh or bash ./repeaterfinder.sh The script will run and configure your Pi as a node with the provided number and password Once the Pi reboots, login into the Pi again, the password this time will be repeater. You will need to change this by typing 'passwd' You will be prompted to type a new password at that point. Remember that you have to make modifications to your router / firewall to allow connection to your node. This information is in the workbook as well. If this is not to be common knowledge please delete this and let me know it's gone. repeaterfindernew.sh

I had grand plans to operate at the tower site, then view the eclipse. Never got to the tower site today at all.

Keep getting this. Sometimes it makes my node unlink No such command 'node-23903*CLI> rpt fun 23903 *321800' (type 'help node-23903*CLI> rpt' for other possible commands) No such command '[Apr 9 00:17:01] NOTICE[673]: chan_iax2.c:9712 socket_process: Registration of '23903' rejected: '<unknown>' from: '34.194.144.228'' (type 'help [Apr 9' for other possible commands) No such command 'node-23903*CLI>' (type 'help node-23903*CLI>' for other possible commands) node-23903*CLI>

Roger beeps interfere with operation, no, typically not. DTMF ID, possibly. Might put a repeater controller in some odd state and lock it up. Again, possible but not probable. MDC CAUSING issues? No, I can't see any way that would happen. However, there is something called ANI or RAC that uses an MDC sounding code to access a repeater. And there are controllers that will look for specific MDC codes that are in a database to allow access to a repeater. So if you are on a system like that, the MDC is a requirement to access the repeater in question. Mind you these are not common at all. But I have seen it both commercially and here on GMRS. All that being said. The repeater OWNER is going to have the final say on any of the three being used on their repeater. A lot of owners don't care for roger beeps. I am personally one. If I wanted a courtesy tone on the repeater (roger beep) I can add that myself. I do support the use of MDC on my repeaters, but don't require it and I don't run RAC / ANI access on my repeater since it's an open repeater.

If the owner has multiple repeaters, you should probably request access to all of them. Now I would be all for giving the ability on here to grouping repeaters together for access requests if the owner / owners choose to do that. But outside of that happening, I would advise you to request for each one or put in the request if it's ok to access the other repeaters and let the owner make the decision.

If you are spotty into the repeater, a directional antenna with higher gain could help. Downside to that is it's going to be directional and only effective talking to that specific repeater. If you only use that repeater, then it's not really as big of a issue. But you need to get a commercial frequency antenna and NOT something for ham. And more elements leans more directional gain. So look for something with 6 or 8 elements. Going from spotty to solid signal into the repeater might not be possible though.. But it will be an improvement. Of course, use the best cable that you can reasonably afford and will work with your installation.

Well, this sort of nonsense is a result of a non-engaged repeater owner. As a repeater system user, paid or not, you have no real say in what that repeater carries for traffic. Ultimately, if you don't like it you can make a comment about it if you choose to but your final say in the matter is when you change the channel or turn off your radio. You have NOTHING else to do when it's not your gear. If the repeater owner allows that sort of conduct, then that's how it is. But an engaged repeater owner that pays attention to what's going on with his / her repeater should be dealing with that. Telling people that they are NOT going to argue, cuss and act the fool on the repeater and to either stop or go kick rocks is the way it needs to be handled. And if they refuse, you shut off the repeater for a while. And the repeater owner can record the traffic, get call signs if the users are actually saying them and file a complaint with the FCC. If it's a common thing for these people to act up and break the rules (causing interference) then the FCC might get involved. But end users really have no say in the content. And people shouldn't just throw up repeaters that they don't pay any attention to and let others act foolish on them.

For a commercial license, you are going to want to request Itinerant frequencies. And you will need to request them for coverage in whatever area you are going to be operating in. Since you are in the logging industry, you will be moving around obviously. Not sure what part of the country you operate in, but you can indicate that area, or those states when getting the license. Not sure how large an area you would be working for a specific job, or if a repeater would be needed. If you are trying to cover a number of miles, then a repeater might be required to provide that coverage. There are repeaters out there that will run off 12 volts. My advice would be putting the antenna up on a topped tree with some sort of chain mount. Or if you have a piece of equipment that is stationary throughout the job and is at a higher elevation then that might be an option as well. Mind you I don't know much about the industry past watching the 'logger show' back in the day. I just built something similar to this for a utility contractor that repairs storm damage. They go out and replace poles and wires that are down from storms. We set them up with a couple repeaters that were in weatherproof cases that would run on 110 or 12 volt and they would just lash a pipe to the top of a pole and setup there. What you don't want to do is get a fixed location license and then move around with it. What I mean by that is if you are in Salem Oregon and get a license for there, you can't take that equipment to Portland and operate on that same frequency legally. You will no doubt be interfering with someone that has that same frequency there. SO you have to have a different type of license to remain legal. Operating on GMRS can't really be legally done since it's not really for business use. So again, Itinerant licenses are the way to go here. And there is NOT a license that you can get in the USA that will allow you to operate in Canada either. So be aware of that. EDIT>>> OIL AND GAS??? Oil and Gas and underground work is going to fall under MSHA regulations in addition to the standard FCC radio stuff. As mentioned you are going to need radios that are rated for the environments you are working in. Honestly, you are going to need professional direction here and NOT the ramblings of some keyboard hero's on a hobby radio site. Not getting that professional assistance and using the wrong stuff will catch up to you when some MSHA inspector shows up and looks at your radios and slaps you with fines and shuts down your operation. When you mentioned 'Forestry' as being your industry, there isn't the requirements for specific radios there. As mentioned by @LScott “intrinsically safe” radios are going to be required for any operations around a well or underground. That rating insures that the radios will not be a possible ignition source in an explosive gas environment. Using radios that are not rated as “intrinsically safe” will get you a hefty fine and shut down by an inspector. And for underground, I believe MSHA requires radio for all personnel working below ground. The underground thing becomes a different issue. Obviously there would be little to no coverage below ground. If you are working in mines, then that has already been dealt with by the mine owner. They may have contractor radios for use in there facility, or you can get an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) giving you permission to have your radios programmed to their radio system. It would cover what operational abilities you would have when doing so and what types of communication was allowed. Meaning what types of radio traffic would be permissible, just emergency, emergency and operational, or emergency, operational and general. But you and your crew would be expected to abide by that when operating on their system. Again, this is stuff to be looked at by a professional radio vendor and not just some guys on the Internet. Yes, I am in the radio industry. But I am in Ohio and not where you are, so I ain't really trying to push you to a specific radio vendor, but knowing enough about MSHA regulations since we have customers that fall under their regulations, I can say that not getting proper advice on this isn't a good way to proceed.

Without knowing your budget, I would toss a couple idea's your way in the 'reasonable' cost arena. Motorola on both counts. First would be the CDM mobiles and HT series portables. These were in their day the go to for law enforcement and fire service use. Very rugged and reliable. Second, for a slightly newer Motorola radio I would look at the XPR 4550 mobiles and 6550 portables. Again, the go to for public safety. They have DMR functionality but that can't be used on GMRS or FRS. But they are a really good radio as well. Any of the radios mentioned will need to be programmed with a computer and the required software. That being said, having radios that can't be messed with that are being handed out to workers, the fact they are locked down is a good thing. Having limited channels, functions and the like means that users are less likely to end up off on some random channel or frequency that it's the one you need them on. And these radios or similar radios from other manufactures can be used on commercial frequencies if you decide to get a business radio license later down the road. THe offerings that are GMRS specific radios can't do that, they are going to be locked to the GMRS service.

The big issue I have is people not understanding how to conduct communications with more than two people on the radio. The idea of letting people take turns just escapes some people.

doesn't matter

What ever..... you win, you're the greatest.

Don't be a dick because I know more than you. Quick scanning Grinder, do some research and learn stuff. Then maybe you will know as much as I do.... but I doubt it. You're the one doing GMRS video's. How about you explain it detail what I was talking about in my post? I mean that was a really watered down version of how that all works. You could go into the weeds about how path loss is actually effected by different environments, the amount of expected per city block and how the calculations are done and averaged in a 360 degree plot for a distance specified by the user. You could explain the time it takes depending on the granularity of the mapping. How it's normally only done in 5 or 10 degree increments but can be done in finer increments at the cost of processing time. That a 10 degree map is averaged and can miss certain things that might block a signal that will show as good on a map. How the maps that are used for a reference are really important to be up to date so that they will indicate those area's that will have the signal blocked. You could go into what HAAT (height above average terrain) is and how it effects things. How the same maps are used for those calculations. The 6dB realized gain that you get every time you double your antenna height and how radio stations ERP is actually calculated using that information. There is a LOT that can be discussed with UHF coverage. Could talk about multipath fading and why moving less than a foot in some instances can get a poor signal full quieting. Lot's of things to cover. But I know Grinder is waiting for you. SO you go boy.

Doesn't matter,. no one needed to know or was curious anyway

There are some RoIP boxes out there that allow radios to be connected to IP networks for remote control. But I don't know of any that have a phone app that are reasonably priced. That being said. And mind you, this will require some Linux and Asterisk knowledge, but there is the apt-rpt add on for Asterisk that will allow a radio to be connected to an Asterisk server as an extension and then you can use Zoiper or another soft phone app on your mobile to connect to the radio. Cost is no more than the interface to the radio which can be built with a few parts and a CM108 USB sound card dongle. I think they are about 10 bucks all in if you build it. But you are going to need to load and install all this (Linux, Asterisk, apt-rpt, and Zopier) and configure it. If you are computer savvy, and know how to solder, then it's not a huge deal.

Something to keep in mind. Ham radio satellites are running 1 to 4 watts. Ham radio satellites orbit over 100 miles from the earths surface. So it has a LOT to do with line of site and less to do with lots of power.

One option is Zello or one of the similar applications that link a radio to the internet for remote operation. You would need to run an app on your phone that would connect to your radio directly and allow you to operate it from the phone. The cost for this sort of thing can be reasonable or expensive depending on how you interface it and what service you use. I will not go into the specifics of it here but it's worth researching if you are wanting a solution that basically works anywhere you have phone or wifi service.

Hold on for a minute.... before we start looking at more power, lets look at something else. Namely your receive signal level. Is the signal coming from the repeater full quieting and strong or is there noise with it? Do you have a 'bar' type signal level meter on the radio? If so is the receive signal full bar's or just one or two? Increasing power output can correct poor signal to a receiver / repeater, but it does NOTHING for your receive. And having some sort of obstruction between you and the repeater can NOT be corrected with you increasing power. What do you know of this repeater? Is it a high profile repeater on a tower with 200 foot or better antenna height or is it some mail order antenna built in a piece of PVC pipe 12 feet in the air on somebodies garage? Is this the only repeater in your area, or are there others? If there are others, what sort of performance do you get with those other repeaters? Are those repeaters closer to you or farther away and are they in the same direction from you or different directions? Next question, do you have a metal roof on the house or is it shingle? You are not going to get signal out through a metal roof. You would be better off to put the antenna in a corner on the highest floor that wasn't in a metal roof if that's what you have. Point is that 7 miles to a good repeater shouldn't be an issue from a handheld radio. Even a really cheap one. I am surprised that you even need an external antenna to talk 7 miles to a repeater. But since you do, I am wondering why that is and if putting more power in the air is going to solve anything.

Then he goes after the guys insurance company. That's why people are required to have insurance. And he gets a NEW tower, professionally installed at the guys expense.

First question is how bad is it bent? If the tower is bent to the point the leg / legs buckled then you can't fix it. It has to come down. At that point you need to figure out the cost to get it down safely. It's obvious that it can't be climbed in the condition it's in. Leaving you with few options. You didn't mention the height of the bend, the direction it's leaning, what it could fall on or what access there might be to get up to it with a bucket truck and crane. Give a detailed description here and pictured if you can get them be fore a real discussion can happen.

Well, it's gonna depend on the situation. The terrain that you are communicating across, the gain of the antenna's at both ends, the height of the antenna's at both ends and lastly the power at both ends. First scenario. Simplex communications between two vehicles since we are talking about using 50 watts. Antenna heights are roughly the same, and no obstructions between you and the other vehicle. Yes, there is a difference here, being the distance that stable communications can exist. You are not limited by the other end being lower, or having less antenna gain. So it will matter in this specific situation. Second scenario, Simplex to a portable (handheld radio). In this instance the 50 watts is completely useless. The other end of the conversation has neither the ability to match your power or antenna gain. Height may be similar, but they are giving up 10dB of signal level (5 watt radio). They are also giving up an additional 3 to 6 dB of gain or possibly more due to the portable radio having an antenna that has little to no gain. You will loose the ability to hear them long before they can no longer hear you. Third scenario, repeater use, repeater with 200 foot or better antenna height, antenna has gain. Here is where the power MIGHT have some advantage, but typically not. For every time you double the height of an antenna you gain 6dB of perceived gain. It your antenna is at 10 feet (a bit high for a mobile but easier to run numbers) you get to the point that curvature of the earth plays a bigger role in creating an obstruction than the path loss for the distance given. On flat ground, the horizon due to curvature is 11 miles. Meaning that LOS or Line Of Site exists at ground level for that distance. Once you are further than that away, the ground becomes the obstruction. As you raise the antenna up, you regain LOS for a specific distance per 10 foot of height of antenna. It's not really allowing you to 'see' over the horizon, it actually placing the antenna back into the LOS due to the increased height. Remember with this, UHF signals travel in straight lines. Lower frequencies behave differently. But GMRS is 462/467 so we are staying with that. The 'path loss' which is the amount of signal loss over a given distance between two antenna's in open air isn't going to be great enough to attenuate the signal of a 50 watt radio before the curvature blocks the signal. This even applies with antenna's that are significantly higher than 200 feet. Consider that ham operators operate portable radios with modest gain directional antenna's and communicate with satellites that are hundreds of miles away from them in space. With 5 watt handheld radios. SO again, path loss is NOT going to have any effect. And 50 watts or 500 as you stated, will NOT defeat the ground blocking your signal.

Well, this is a loaded question. And the owner of the tower is the one that's going to load it. You are going to have 3 main types of tower owners. Knowing who owns it and the ground under it is going to be key in how you proceed and what to expect. First you have the 'vertical real estate' companies like American Tower and Crown Castle. They own a vast number of the towers that you are going to see. They are teh most difficult to deal with but the most willing to take your money (a LOT of your money) to allow you to access their site and put up your gear on their tower. First requirement is going to be the climbers or 'tower crew'. Some of the major players will allow anyone that is licensed and bonded to work on their towers. Others will require that you use only specific companies that are 'on their list'. Sort of like preferred body shops in the auto insurance business. But be assured that YOU will NOT be climbing their tower and working on it at all. They also may or may NOT have a structure on the site that they will rent you space in. Mind you this is a separate fee from the tower access fee. Then they may or may not require you to install at your expense, an electrical service for your equipment. Lastly, most any of them will charge you a civil engineering fee to verify your antenna and line are not going to overload their tower. I have seen this fee charged to people to access old microwave towers that you could literally hang a truck from without overloading it. This is usually around 3000 to 4000 bucks. And if it doesn't pass they will then ask you, at your expense, to reinforce the tower (tens of thousands of dollars typically) before you are allowed to pay another company to put your single antenna and line on their tower. These people deal with cell providers that make thousands of dollars a month on these towers. The cell companies don't care about all this because they make all the money back in a few months to a year. Or, because they rent thousands of other sites from the company, the owner does the work and increases the rent a few bucks and gets their money that way. Of course marking up the work a good bit. Again, the cell companies don't care. They have the money. Oh, and your install better be top notch. Not to mention that they will only write multiyear contracts that are going to typically be at bear minimum 500 a month in really rural areas to thousands a month for urban areas that have more people. Second is going to be the private owners that know the business, or are a small player (own a few towers and not thousands). Some times you will run into these folks and they might even be a ham operator that might support your endeavors that will rent you space for a reasonable fee, provide power and a place to put your gear but still has the good sense to require licensed climbers. However he may know a guy that he uses and will allow you to work with him directly to do your work as he is doing other work on the tower (maintenance or whatever) for a really reduced fee. These are the folks that you hope to encounter in truth. Last ones are the unicorns. These are the property owners that got a tower dumped on them due to the previous tower owner going bankrupt (lots of old paging and small cell upstart companies did this). They have little to no idea about the tower, how to maintain it, what requirements for lighting it may have and typically shut the power off to the building years ago. If you know radio, towers, and building maintenance, you can sometimes work yourself into dealing with all that for the property owner and getting access. But if there is no utility, you will be the one to deal with that too. Last ones are the owners that are somewhat radio savy, or at least ham / GMRS friendly and will allow access for a fee, or not based on no given reason. These situations are great until they aren't great. And this sort of goes for the guy above as well. When they hear that they could be getting thousands a month in rent and you aren't paying that, you have no agreement, and you will be out the door. They may even try to keep your gear. It just depends on the person. So good lick and I hope it works out for you.