Wanted repeater controller with no tone cw id for GR300.

[mikevman]

Hi all, i am looking for a controller that has no tone cw id for a gr300 repeater, i had a i20r but it died, i know some zetron controllers have cw id but does not say if it is in tone or out, If anyone can let me know what controllers do this besides my good old i20r it would help me a bunch, thanks.

[WROZ250]

1 hour ago, mikevman said:

Hi all, i am looking for a controller that has no tone cw id for a gr300 repeater, i had a i20r but it died, i know some zetron controllers have cw id but does not say if it is in tone or out, If anyone can let me know what controllers do this besides my good old i20r it would help me a bunch, thanks.

You have a lot of options, the big three that come to mind are the Open Repeater Project, the Arcom RC-210, and even the AllStar (Asterisk) software, all of which can be configured to have no tones or CWID, if desired.  The latter (Asterisk), will act as a repeater whether it is connected to a network/internet or not (i.e. stand alone repeater).

BTW, most 'repeater controller' use tones when generating the CWID.  I assume you simply do not wish to send a CWID?

None, unfortunately are 'cheap' with the RC-210 being the most expensive and the Open Repeater somewhat cheaper, given it can be built on the smaller Raspberry Pi (W).  Allstar can be run on a Raspberry Pi 3 or Pi 4 or, a Linux PC (if you have an old, working, PC laying around), so the cost varies.

Another option is to simply build a COR to control PTT and an audio interconnect.

Lastly, there is always the Motorola RICK and even another i20r if you hunt around for a used one.

There are other repeater controllers on the market as well.

[SteveShannon]

Couldn't you just leave the CW ID blank when configuring the controller?

[WRKC935]

Personal preference is a Raspberry Pi and a CM108 audio interface. 

These can be built up with the image for connecting to the system and then just not connected to the Internet if you are not looking to link.

Another option right now since R-Pi's are a bit hard to come by is a WYSE thin client with Linux loaded on it and the CM108 interface that is basically acting as the Pi.

Those are cheap to acquire and will fill the need but you have to be a bit of a computer geek to get that running.  If you a comfortable with Linux and hardware hacking, this is the way to go in my opinion. 

 

[WROZ250]

The CM108 and CM119 interfaces are absolutely the best!  I've yet to finish a FOB conversion but do have the RIM Lite version 2 from the Repeater Builder guys and it is fantastic.   Bit more expensive than converting a sound FOB, but probably the better route in the long run (IMHO).

Unless you're talking a good used deal, those WYSE thin clients are pretty pricey.  FWIW, Canakits still has Pi4 available and compared to the WYSE Thin Client, the Pi is actually cheap.  That said, almost any old PC with Linux will work for a repeater controller.  However, the Open Repeater project is strictly Raspberry Pi right now and only the original Asterisk (AllStar) software is available for Pi.  The Hamvoip version of Asterisk(Allstar) is newer, but like the Open Repeater, is only available for Raspberry Pi (unless one likes compiling source code).

All that said and, as I commented previously, there is always the option of another I20R or Motorola RICK and, I believe there are a couple of super cheap options that are available such as the Surecom SR-328 duplex controller which, last time I checked, was well under $100 (USD).

There are a lot of options depending on one's needs, abilities, and budget.

[WROZ250]

15 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Couldn't you just leave the CW ID blank when configuring the controller?

Absolutely, most controllers have that option/ability.  Many of the cheaper ones don't even have a CWID!

 

[mikevman]

Well thanks guys, i do need to TX my cw id to have a legal repeater, i just want the controller to TX the cw id in out tone mode so you don't have to hear it when it id's like my good old i20r controller did.

[tweiss3]

I think the ID-O-Matic doe that.

[mikevman]

I have an ID-O-Matic that is about 7 years old but did not do out tone id, maybe the new one's do, that's something to check.

[SteveShannon]

I’m confused. What do you mean by “out tone mode”?  

The ID must be transmitted in accordance with the rules, no confusion or argument there. Everyone receiving the transmission will hear it, no confusion there.  The transmission is on 462.xxx.

The receiver half of the repeater is on 467.xxx so it never hears the transmission with the CW ID.

Don’t all repeater controllers that generate a CW ID simply add it into the audio from the receiver half as it’s passed to the transmitter half? 

What am I missing?

[gortex2]

The i20r controller he had sent CW ID in CSQ mode. Only PL was on when the RX radio received the PL (tones). The Communications Specialist controller does the same thing. Its all how the controller is programed and radios are programmed. Built many of those repeaters when i was at the shop with the i20, zetron, comm spec and other controllers at the time. Most commercial controllers will accomplish what the user is looking for. A ham/hobby controller will not. 

@mikevman I'd search ebay for a CommSpec TP3200, CSI 32, Zetron CR-310 or any of the Trident controllers. They pop up on and off but finding one the size of the i20 may be challenging. Most are 19" rack mounted. 

[WRKC935]

The repeater NOT generating tone during ID is usually a function of the radio and not the controller.  And it's going to depend on where the PL is generated.

If the controller is generating the PL and NOT the repeater, then the controller can be configured to NOT generate PL during ID. 

If the repeater is programmed to generate the PL and you key it via one line it's gonna generate the PL, if you are using mobiles as a repeater then this is also going to be the case.  Again you have to control where the PL is generated. 

The problem with generating the PL in the controller and not the radio is the level of the PL.  Wide band FM is 5Khz deviation at full send.  The PL is generated at .7 to .8Khz deviation.  So much lower than the intelligence.  But the radio will typically have filters on the input that drop all audio below 300 Hz which is where the PL is.  If your radio / repeater has a FLAT AUDIO input then you can send the PL up the audio line and it will be transmitted. 

But the level issue still exists. 

To set the levels, you about need a service monitor to get the levels right.  If the PL is hot, then it's gonna be heard in the transmitter intelligence and people will ask what it is and complain about it. 

 

So lets go back to the i20r.  What's wrong with it to begin with?  Those were not exactly complicated and the failures were typically easy enough to repair. 

Typically they worked well unless they got hooked up wrong and a control transistor got huffed.  Care to share the issues with it?

 

[mikevman]

sorry for the confusion, us old farts talk like everyone knows what we mean, yes out tone is just not TX the cw id with the encode tone on, that way we just don't have to hear it, could not have explained it better gortex2 and wrkc935, the i20r did have power in the first couple of components but that's as far as we got with testing, while we were transporting it fell on the street and got ran over, a quick death, just the i20r not the whole repeater, i gave it a nice burial, thanks for the controller suggestions gortex2, that i20r just fits so good in the gr300 box, i guess my question did help some new people understand what in and out tone cw id means.

[gortex2]

@mikevman I agree the i20 fit the box well. The only other box that will fit in there is the RICK but that doesn't do CW ID, nor tone panel. I think the CommSpec would fit although tight. They made a "table top" version of it. If it didn't fit in the box it would fit nicely on top of it. I looked in my storage and dont have any at the moment but a quick scan of ebay shows a trident controller which will work well - 

Trident

I used the Trident in our LTR Trunking system. It was nice as it also did community panel so we could migrate customers over to LTR slowly and let them use their legacy conventional radios until they could replace all of them. I still have 2 of the older Trident (Pre Raider) in service on GMRS repeaters. Mainly so I can have both the traveler tone (non listed) and my own PL/DPL tone in the repeater. 

[SteveShannon]

8 hours ago, mikevman said:

sorry for the confusion, us old farts talk like everyone knows what we mean, yes out tone is just not TX the cw id with the encode tone on, that way we just don't have to hear it, could not have explained it better gortex2 and wrkc935, the i20r did have power in the first couple of components but that's as far as we got with testing, while we were transporting it fell on the street and got ran over, a quick death, just the i20r not the whole repeater, i gave it a nice burial, thanks for the controller suggestions gortex2, that i20r just fits so good in the gr300 box, i guess my question did help some new people understand what in and out tone cw id means.

Thank you.  That helped me understand.

So when the CW ID is transmitted, no CTCSS or DCS tone is transmitted.  Anyone who has the tone operated squelch set won’t hear the ID. For all other transmissions the tone is included so those who have the tone operated squelch set will hear them.

Thanks again.

[mikevman]

On 9/3/2022 at 4:09 AM, gortex2 said:

The i20r controller he had sent CW ID in CSQ mode. Only PL was on when the RX radio received the PL (tones). The Communications Specialist controller does the same thing. Its all how the controller is programed and radios are programmed. Built many of those repeaters when i was at the shop with the i20, zetron, comm spec and other controllers at the time. Most commercial controllers will accomplish what the user is looking for. A ham/hobby controller will not. 

@mikevman I'd search ebay for a CommSpec TP3200, CSI 32, Zetron CR-310 or any of the Trident controllers. They pop up on and off but finding one the size of the i20 may be challenging. Most are 19" rack mounted. 

Thanks for those suggestions, that helps me, most of the specs. i could find on controllers in the past don't tell me if it has that id feature, i did check out that trident, looks nice, are those and the others programmed through the rss or cps like the i20r?.

[gortex2]

No all the Trident, CommSpec and CSI models are programmed with a terminal session. They were designed for modems from a site to turn on a PL/DPL or turn it off. So any serial emulator will work fine. Putty and Procomm are the go to most of the time. 

 

[KAF6045]

5 hours ago, gortex2 said:

No all the Trident, CommSpec and CSI models are programmed with a terminal session. They were designed for modems from a site to turn on a PL/DPL or turn it off. So any serial emulator will work fine. Putty and Procomm are the go to most of the time. 

 

ProComm still lives?

I ended up buying HyperAccess when ProComm Plus was no longer functional on my hardware. For all the hype (no pun intended) HyperAccess is a crude program compared to ProComm Plus (and even to 16-bit WinComm -- which had a more understandable scripting language).

 

[SteveShannon]

14 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

ProComm still lives?

I ended up buying HyperAccess when ProComm Plus was no longer functional on my hardware. For all the hype (no pun intended) HyperAccess is a crude program compared to ProComm Plus (and even to 16-bit WinComm -- which had a more understandable scripting language).

 

It’s still available, but it hasn’t been upgraded since version 4.8 (Win 2k maybe).  

[KAF6045]

3 hours ago, Sshannon said:

It’s still available, but it hasn’t been upgraded since version 4.8 (Win 2k maybe).  

Looking at "a" web site, it has a warning that it isn't optimized for WinXP -- which was the last of the Win9X core as I recall, Win7 using the NT core. Does claim W95, W98, W2K, and Win NT4 compatibility (and the download/purchase links are dead ends -- the Amazon link brings up OmniPage!), the second I tried just sends you to the first if you want to buy, and the third actually had a working Amazon link -- stating the product is unobtainable...

[gortex2]

Yup. I still use an older version of procomm to one of my controllers as it supported the phone modem. Yes they are still out there. I use Putty for everythign else.

 

[mikevman]

I wonder if i still have procomm plus on one of my old 90s computers, boy i feel old now.

[Radioguy7268]

Trident had their own terminal program called Tcomm. I have a copy of it around somewhere. As I recall, it was from Win95 era, but would run on WinXP. I would NOT recommend using a Trident Raider panel unless you've got a copy of the manual (along with a few hours to read it).  Trident was selling those for LTR use, and as I recall, you have to assign the user an LTR ID# - but then tell the panel that particular ID# was going to be using conventional PL or DPL - and then use a translation table to assign the particular tone code parameters to that ID#.

I can tell you that the Raider panels are reliable - I still have a few in service that are approaching 25 years with zero problems.

i20r panels still pop up now and then on Ebay. They were nice to use with the GR series repeaters, but I wouldn't spend big bucks to flog a GR300 back to life. There's better alternatives out there nowadays.

[mikevman]

On 9/13/2022 at 4:42 PM, Radioguy7268 said:

Trident had their own terminal program called Tcomm. I have a copy of it around somewhere. As I recall, it was from Win95 era, but would run on WinXP. I would NOT recommend using a Trident Raider panel unless you've got a copy of the manual (along with a few hours to read it).  Trident was selling those for LTR use, and as I recall, you have to assign the user an LTR ID# - but then tell the panel that particular ID# was going to be using conventional PL or DPL - and then use a translation table to assign the particular tone code parameters to that ID#.

I can tell you that the Raider panels are reliable - I still have a few in service that are approaching 25 years with zero problems.

i20r panels still pop up now and then on Ebay. They were nice to use with the GR series repeaters, but I wouldn't spend big bucks to flog a GR300 back to life. There's better alternatives out there nowadays.

Never programmed an LTR system, not a problem to run old dos or windows stuff here, you know how motorola stuff is, might go for gr1225 if i don't find an i20r soon, never had a gr1225.

[gortex2]

To be honest you can probably get a GR1225 for the cost of a decent controller so if your looking to upgrade that may be the route. Otherwise just throw a cheap controller in the GR and deal with the ID.