OK, It's way past time to be proactive.... Repeater access orientation (Video or ZOOM)

[WRUU653]

and the dog if they can figure it out 

[WRUU653]

11 minutes ago, JoCoBrian said:

So by family members...does that mean all family members or just the ones living under your roof at the address on your license? 

I personally think for managment sake I would keep it to family locally because my call sign potentally would be used in multiple states but you can. 

[FlatTop]

18 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws.

I mean pretty great right. 

Hehehe...OK....I have two grown adult kids and 16 grandchildren (5 of which are over 16 and drivers).  Hmmm...two of my grandkids are licensed hams too.   Interesting. 

[marcspaz]

2 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Wondered what you used two portable repeaters for? The reason I have one, and have a lot of portables is for doing survey work and prescribed fire on private land. They get used several times a year, and although it is "old school", many times out of cell network coverage and it allows entire group to stay coordinated at once (safety and efficiency). I have looked at cell phones with built in UHF, yet those are costly, and I would have to buy those for everyone. So I stick with GMRS only, and my portables are ex fire/police issue and durable. Fall on them or drop them and they still work. I I am technically stretching the letter of the law on my GMRS license for this application, yet business band coordination won't work well either. Up until I got a ration of grief on this thread, I had totally forgot about Mursy MURS and I own no quality hardware for that band.

 

I work as a volunteer, specializing in emergency 2-way communications, with two county EOC's as well as for the federal government.  The repeaters I have can perform VHF/VHF, UHF/UHF, or Crossland (VHF/UHF). They both are capable of analog and P.25 digital, as well as performing as relaying stations.

 

Relaying is fun, stringing the two repeaters together via RF linking, to extend range as far as 2x to 4x the distance as a single repeater.  Basically putting the repeaters on the edge of each other's coverage, using them like a huge wifi range extender. 

 

Heres a great example. Let's say I am in an area that I only get 4 or 5 miles of coverage mobile to mobile.  In the same area I get 15-20 satute miles of coverage from my mobile to the first repeater. The two repeaters can talk to each other from 30-40 statute miles, and then a mobile on the other end can get 15-20 statute miles from the second repeater.  I've now extended my mobile range 60 to 80 statute miles on the longest path.

[WQWX838]

10 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

I work as a volunteer, specializing in emergency 2-way communications, with two county EOC's as well as for the federal government.  The repeaters I have can perform VHF/VHF, UHF/UHF, or Crossland (VHF/UHF). They both are capable of analog and P.25 digital, as well as performing as relaying stations.

 

Interesting... This sounds like some kind of amateur radio application? What region are you located in if you don't mind me asking? Most area's have phased things like this out as the newer technologies for emergency use have become available. I would suspect you are doing all this is in rural use areas? It is off the radar for most people, yet in really rural area's, emergency services of any kind are spotty at best. I normally use simplex, and when I do use my portable repeater, it runs 15 watts. This is enough to handle everything I need. To answer another posting, all my hardware is Midland LMR stuff. The people in Kansas City I simply can't say enough good about for support. They are the real deal!

[WQWX838]

11 hours ago, Sshannon said:

But, I do think it's funny that @WQWX838wishes to implement rules dictating behavior when using GMRS while knowingly violating the actual AHJ's rules for GMRS. 

Back to the language issues again... I do not want rules on this. I was advocating for personal restraint in some operating habits that I observe have been creeping into GMRS. That is all. Pragmatism, reason, and being mindful of a shared resource. We have enough rules. Thank you for the comments!

[gortex2]

14 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I’m curious. How are you stretching the letter of the law?

In all reality until the repeater gets in the mix they can do what ever they want. The only requirement for a repeater is having a license. 

[WQWX838]

12 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

I do think if you are running a business then put it in the budget to do things correctly.

 

Well, hard to know where to begin on this. Do you know how many challenges are faced by small business every day? Doing this correctly, would involve frequency coordination across several state lines and counties. Business band licensing and hardware costs really add up and the less costly hardware is really something else! The only thing I can say about cheap hardware is that it is just enough of a radio or repeater to make you wish you actually had one. The situation for me is one of "perfect competition". The marketplace sets the price, I can participate, yet have limited power and margin controls. Monthly overhead is high. If I had a budget like Amazon does? This would be a different story.

Thanks for the comments!

[gortex2]

1 minute ago, WQWX838 said:

Well, hard to know where to begin on this. Do you know how many challenges are faced by small business every day? Doing this correctly, would involve frequency coordination across several state lines and counties. Business band licensing and hardware costs really add up and the less costly hardware is really something else! The only thing I can say about cheap hardware is that it is just enough of a radio or repeater to make you wish you actually had one. The situation for me is one of "perfect competition". The marketplace sets the price, I can participate, yet have limited power and margin controls. Monthly overhead is high. If I had a budget like Amazon does? This would be a different story.

Thanks for the comments!

I think your just using that as an excuse. Unless your near Canada a business Iternate license is pretty easy to get and will allow US use with repeater rights. Granted you wouldn't want to use CCR units on it. 

[WQWX838]

46 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

I think your just using that as an excuse. Unless your near Canada a business Iternate license is pretty easy to get and will allow US use with repeater rights. Granted you wouldn't want to use CCR units on it. 

Well, that is something. Frequency coordination would be possible if every location was the same. It is not, changes often, and dealing the technicalities of coordination, reprogramming if needed for each location, is a time sink. I don't want to start a conflict, yet I respectfully ask you to consider what you "think" vs. what you know. Whatever your needs and use are I can't know.

[gortex2]

Apparently you don't know what an Iternate Frequency is. One coordination and can be used anywhere in the US. I have multiple in UHF and VHF. Can be used anywhere in the US. They are there for business's that move around the US and do work all over. Go into an area setup a repeater then tear down and move again next month. But you keep believing that you can use GMRS and go wild west vs reality. 

[marcspaz]

 

 

2 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Interesting... This sounds like some kind of amateur radio application? What region are you located in if you don't mind me asking?

 

I live and work in the Washington DC Metro area.  The type of services I provide are with Amateur Radio Emergency Services (ARES).  Though there are several other types of civilian groups doing similar work.

 

2 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Most area's have phased things like this out as the newer technologies for emergency use have become available.

 

That is the opposite experience I have had.  I have actually seen a tighter integration of our team as the day-to-day communications gets more complex, relying more and more on massive underlying infrastructure, such as commercial power and the internet and cellular for most communications.  Modern systems are much more susceptible to failure due to the complexity and multiple threads of 'single point of failure'.

Amateurs such as myself bring a 100% standalone system that provides portable and mobile communications support for voice, data, video, networking, etc., all over radio.  We are heavily engaged with the served agency for training and actual response.  Some months we have several training sessions.  We may be at an EOC, Hospital, Airport or some combination of all of them, plus shelters, etc. Every two months my team trains with the US Marines on Quantico and several times a year, every year for the last 20+ years, we deploy with Marines, State and/or local police, hospitals, FEMA and the Red Cross, etc. on actual live events.  I think we keep getting more and more invites because, while we are aux communications designed for COOP/DR support, we still move traffic while primary systems are up, and on the regular basis the people we serve tell us we are moving more accurate information faster than the Marines, PD, etc.

Some of my amateur radio peers also run the Military Auxiliary Radio Service, based out of the Pentagon.  Though, I don't.

 

2 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

I would suspect you are doing all this is in rural use areas? It is off the radar for most people, yet in really rural area's, emergency services of any kind are spotty at best.

 

Most of our operations are in the heart of urban areas in and around DC, Northern Virginia and Maryland.  However, we do respond to and train in rural and hard to reach areas that present some unique obstacles to overcome.  Communications (like cell service and radio coverage) does get a bit spotty in the rural areas, but we specialize in Mass Casualty / Multiple Municipality responses, which almost always occur in cities.

 

2 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Back to the language issues again... I do not want rules on this. I was advocating for personal restraint in some operating habits that I observe have been creeping into GMRS. That is all. Pragmatism, reason, and being mindful of a shared resource. We have enough rules. Thank you for the comments!

 

This is how I took it... I would think most people would be comfortable with and even welcome a certain level of self-regulation.  For lack of a better choice of words, discipline yourself so the world doesn't have to.

 

Nothing wrong with a little social grooming.  The best, most agreed upon methods will naturally bubble to the top as time goes on and get incorporated into SOP.  I mean, that is literally what we do here every day, is it not?

 

[SteveShannon]

14 hours ago, wrci350 said:

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E/section-95.1705

Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws.

There is nothing in Part 95 E about where these folks live.

But you should understand that because they are operating under your authority, you share in the legal responsibility for them to obey the rules.  In fact for minors it’s specifically spelled out (at least for base and repeater usage):

§ 95.1743 Minor GMRS operators.

Operators under the age of 18 will not be held personally responsible, pursuant to § 95.343, for improper operation of a GMRS repeater or base station. The holder of the individual license under which the minor operates is solely responsible for any improper operation that occurs while an individual under the age of 18 is operating the station

[WRUU653]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

But you should understand that because they are operating under your authority, you share in the legal responsibility for them to obey the rules.  In fact for minors it’s specifically spelled out (at least for base and repeater usage

This is precisely why for me at least, I am comfortable allowing family to use my call sign while we are communicating together. For example my wife is free to use whenever, we are legal partners after all and live under the same roof. My brother who lives just far away enough that radios aren’t reaching, I’d be happy to allow if we were on a trip or camping but if he wanted to use on his own it would be best if he had his own. The kids and grand kids, again if we’re together where I feel I can know they are using things properly okay but they are mostly in other places and they should have their own licenses. This is just my personal preference so I have the ability to ensure proper use for my license. 

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Back to the language issues again... I do not want rules on this. I was advocating for personal restraint in some operating habits that I observe have been creeping into GMRS. That is all. Pragmatism, reason, and being mindful of a shared resource. We have enough rules. Thank you for the comments!

I agree; it’s a language issue.  I understood that you were not advocating for government regulations, but when you state up front how you want people to behave, those are rules that you are attempting to impose. And that’s absolutely fine for your repeater, but you started this thread hoping to gather support for wider support of the constraints you enumerated.  They may only be house rules or in this case specific to your personal repeater, but by definition they are still rules and if you expect anyone to respect your rules you should start by obeying the official rules. 

Do I care that you break the rules?  Not usually, but this comes across as self serving hypocrisy for business purposes.  Just buy your employees GMRS licenses and you’ll be compliant. Or do as @gortex2says.

If you truly cannot afford $35 for each employee with a radio, buy them FRS radios or MURS radios and just buy GMRS licenses for your team leaders if you need a little bit of extra range.

[SteveShannon]

9 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

This is precisely why for me at least, I am comfortable allowing family to use my call sign while we are communicating together. For example my wife is free to use whenever, we are legal partners after all and live under the same roof. My brother who lives just far away enough that radios aren’t reaching, I’d be happy to allow if we were on a trip or camping but if he wanted to use on his own it would be best if he had his own. The kids and grand kids, again if we’re together where I feel I can know they are using things properly okay but they are mostly in other places and they should have their own licenses. This is just my personal preference so I have the ability to ensure proper use for my license. 

I agree completely and I believe that’s exactly what was intended when the FCC used the language  “under the authority of the individual licensee.”  

[KAF6045]

15 hours ago, JoCoBrian said:

So by family members...does that mean all family members or just the ones living under your roof at the address on your license? 

As mentioned, it is /now/ just a list of specific relationships. One could allow children residing in college dorms across the state to operate under one's license (but since one is also responsible for /correct/ operation, I wouldn't recommend such unmonitored permission).

In the past (say, the 1990s) the restriction was for same household -- think large family farm with a base station (maybe tied to a repeater) and family members in the fields with (tractor mounted) mobiles and/or HTs.

 

[WQWX838]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

Apparently you don't know what an Iternate Frequency is. One coordination and can be used anywhere in the US. I have multiple in UHF and VHF. Can be used anywhere in the US. They are there for business's that move around the US and do work all over. Go into an area setup a repeater then tear down and move again next month. But you keep believing that you can use GMRS and go wild west vs reality. 

I read about this  few years back and it did not seem to be functional for what I needed. Can you explain how I can coordinate an assigned frequency for use anywhere in the USA, without going through the process from one location to the next. Yes I am interested to know exactly how this can work, perhaps others on here are also. Please detail the whole process and how it works for any domestic region you are in. If I can make this work just like you say? I am so done with GMRS band.

Thanks

[WQWX838]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

I agree; it’s a language issue.  I understood that you were not advocating for government regulations, but when you state up front how you want people to behave, those are rules that you are attempting to impose. And that’s absolutely fine for your repeater, but you started this thread hoping to gather support for wider support of the constraints you enumerated.  They may only be house rules or in this case specific to your personal repeater, but by definition they are still rules and if you expect anyone to respect your rules you should start by obeying the official rules. 

Do I care that you break the rules?  Not usually, but this comes across as self serving hypocrisy for business purposes.  Just buy your employees GMRS licenses and you’ll be compliant. Or do as @gortex2says.

If you truly cannot afford $35 for each employee with a radio, buy them FRS radios or MURS radios and just buy GMRS licenses for your team leaders if you need a little bit of extra range.

You idea to buy everyone a license especially now that its 35USD is pretty decent, the only issue with that is I have a rotation of people that are not the same. If they were this would work 100%. I use a lot of 1099 type contract labor. Good suggestion however! Thanks

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

You idea to buy everyone a license especially now that its 35USD is pretty decent, the only issue with that is I have a rotation of people that are not the same. If they were this would work 100%. I use a lot of 1099 type contract labor. Good suggestion however! Thanks

Will 2 watt MURS or FRS radios work for your purposes?

[WQWX838]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

Volunteer work

 

Well done on all that! We are not islands on this planet... I was curious what you were using all this hardware for. thanks!

[gortex2]

7 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

I read about this  few years back and it did not seem to be functional for what I needed. Can you explain how I can coordinate an assigned frequency for use anywhere in the USA, without going through the process from one location to the next. Yes I am interested to know exactly how this can work, perhaps others on here are also. Please detail the whole process and how it works for any domestic region you are in. If I can make this work just like you say? I am so done with GMRS band.

Thanks

I wont get into the process but there are places you can go.

https://sites.google.com/a/mst.edu/robert_ruark/radio/licensing-a-business-band-frequency 

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/business-radio-license-itinerant-4136.html

I use EWA for all my business licensing stuff personally but that's just my preference .When doing Public Safety I use APCO. 

You can fill out the FCC Form 601 yourself and not include a coordinator but it must be completed and submitted 100% correct or it will bounce back. 

[WQWX838]

3 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Will 2 watt MURS or FRS radios work for your purposes?

Good question... Many years ago I tried this and there were kids and families on it at times. I recall a little kid asked me if I liked cheeseburgers, to which I said yes sometimes... I have not tried it since. Sometimes I'm sure it would work and then there are those other times.

[WQWX838]

5 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

I wont get into the process but there are places you can go.

https://sites.google.com/a/mst.edu/robert_ruark/radio/licensing-a-business-band-frequency 

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/business-radio-license-itinerant-4136.html

I use EWA for all my business licensing stuff personally but that's just my preference .When doing Public Safety I use APCO. 

You can fill out the FCC Form 601 yourself and not include a coordinator but it must be completed and submitted 100% correct or it will bounce back. 

OK I see that link thanks! However, I see 4 UHF channels with no provision for repeater use? I defaulted to the UHF 35W selection.

[SteveShannon]

15 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

Good question... Many years ago I tried this and there were kids and families on it at times. I recall a little kid asked me if I liked cheeseburgers, to which I said yes sometimes... I have not tried it since. Sometimes I'm sure it would work and then there are those other times.

Maybe that was MURS. If you can’t use the FRS channels because they’re busy, you won’t be able to use GMRS. With the exception of the repeater input channels they’re exactly the same frequencies. And you’re not allowed to use the repeater input frequencies for simplex between handhelds.