RF Spurious Emissions (aka Spurs) Example.

[SteveShannon]

18 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

Wow... Interesting! I am familiar with Trimble and Leica total stations. I do surveys, yet use several GIS technologies to do this. I do not do boundary survey projects though. What became of the startup?

I was one of their first hires in 1991 and unfortunately they went toes up in ‘92.  Like most startups it ran out of money before it could get to production.  It was a great job, my first right after graduating, and I learned a lot about every aspect of both electronics and mechanical design of that particular total station.

[WQWX838]

15 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I was one of their first hires in 1991 and unfortunately they went toes up in ‘92.  Like most startups it ran out of money before it could get to production.  It was a great job, my first right after graduating, and I learned a lot about every aspect of both electronics and mechanical design of that particular total station.

Yes. You are one of the lucky ones! I too worked for a start up company one time. The pay was low but it was a GREAT experience! Mine ran out of money also after a while but was resurrected and became a joint venture with an established company. The amount of creativity and energy is amazing that comes out of these things. This is kind of on topic from where this thread has been because coincidentally, I/we were doing a lot of "engineering" type work, yet I never once called myself an "engineer". We were and are "science nerds".... who happened to be doing a lot of design type work. The company is still around today and has grown a lot. I listed them on my Linkedin page also. It's called KBI BioPharma.

[WQWX838]

19 hours ago, marcspaz said:

My opinion is, if you engineer stuff for a living, you are an engineer...  I have and continue to engineer RF and computer networking solutions for DOD, federal law enforcement, etc., with my professional title issued by those government agencies as either Engineer or Sr. Engineer.

Ok, after reflecting on this from yesterday, I have to make a clear stance... We can engage in making, designing, creating, all of that. It is a stretch to call ourselves "engineers" if we are not trained as this. I am not sure what the hyper fascination is with this title. If a person designs and builds a house or houses, that alone does not make them an architect. There are laws that protect these professional titles, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, and onward. I know you already posed the scenario where I can be labeled with arrogance by agreeing with this protectionist position. My brother is an electrical engineer and worked damn hard to be trained as such. I never want to be a part of a position that undermines any of this. Professional standards are important and are required. So I formally retract my softer position on what I said yesterday. Yikes, my humble apologies to anyone on this forum who is in fact an engineer. I am embarrassed I soft peddled this yesterday.-- Joseph

[tweiss3]

This doesn't have anything to do with the base premise of this thread, which we should get back to....

But, @WQWX838, I have to disagree with your above post. As a licensed PE, I take no except to @marcspazmaintaining a title of engineer, be it senior engineer, engineer II or another. The distinction is the title Professional Engineer, the license and what you can and cannot do (i.e. stamp plans/calculations). I have a few young engineers under me that are not yet licensed, but they are still engineers. I also know plenty of other engineers in adjacent fields that the PE is not needed in their role for their engineering practice, and therefore may never get the licensure, yet sure are engineers. As a side note, in those fields, though the PE is not needed, it is often the gateway to move up into management, even though it will never be needed. 

@Sshannon correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

[tweiss3]

Back on topic.

Thank you for this write up. It does demonstrate what has been said before, but the pictures are worth a thousand words.

How did you hook up the TinySA? Are you using a bias tee or an attenuator? What equipment do you have for that. I have a TinySA, and do like it for the features to price ratio. I just don't have all the proper connectors to make hard connections without blowing it up.

[WQWX838]

7 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

This doesn't have anything to do with the base premise of this thread, which we should get back to....

But, @WQWX838, I have to disagree with your above post. As a licensed PE, I take no except to @marcspazmaintaining a title of engineer, be it senior engineer, engineer II or another. The distinction is the title Professional Engineer, the license and what you can and cannot do (i.e. stamp plans/calculations). I have a few young engineers under me that are not yet licensed, but they are still engineers. I also know plenty of other engineers in adjacent fields that the PE is not needed in their role for their engineering practice, and therefore may never get the licensure, yet sure are engineers. As a side note, in those fields, though the PE is not needed, it is often the gateway to move up into management, even though it will never be needed. 

@Sshannon correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

Thank you for the input on this... Yes EIT guys are on the way and I recall when my brother was in this category. This is all fine and glad you chimed in. I am going to maintain my position as forward looking in terms of maintaining an expectation of standards. Free to choose as it is said. The word is used pretty loose and free, yet when talking certain topics it is not. I'm not too worried about the thread premise, there is a lot of latitude here also. Cheers!

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

This doesn't have anything to do with the base premise of this thread, which we should get back to....

But, @WQWX838, I have to disagree with your above post. As a licensed PE, I take no except to @marcspazmaintaining a title of engineer, be it senior engineer, engineer II or another. The distinction is the title Professional Engineer, the license and what you can and cannot do (i.e. stamp plans/calculations). I have a few young engineers under me that are not yet licensed, but they are still engineers. I also know plenty of other engineers in adjacent fields that the PE is not needed in their role for their engineering practice, and therefore may never get the licensure, yet sure are engineers. As a side note, in those fields, though the PE is not needed, it is often the gateway to move up into management, even though it will never be needed. 

@Sshannon correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[marcspaz]

 

12 hours ago, tweiss3 said:

Back on topic.

Thank you for this write up. It does demonstrate what has been said before, but the pictures are worth a thousand words.

How did you hook up the TinySA? Are you using a bias tee or an attenuator? What equipment do you have for that. I have a TinySA, and do like it for the features to price ratio. I just don't have all the proper connectors to make hard connections without blowing it up.

Tees are okay for sampling.  I personally use a 50ohm 40 dB or 60 dB attenuator, depending on what transmitter and PA I'm testing.  Any brand would be fine as long as the correct resistance and rated wattage are there.  For example, when testing radios that are 5w or less, I just use a 10w attenuator.  For 100W radios, I use a 200w attenuator, etc. 

 

14 hours ago, WQWX838 said:

Ok, after reflecting on this from yesterday, I have to make a clear stance... We can engage in making, designing, creating, all of that. It is a stretch to call ourselves "engineers" if we are not trained as this. I am not sure what the hyper fascination is with this title. If a person designs and builds a house or houses, that alone does not make them an architect. There are laws that protect these professional titles, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, and onward. I know you already posed the scenario where I can be labeled with arrogance by agreeing with this protectionist position. My brother is an electrical engineer and worked damn hard to be trained as such. I never want to be a part of a position that undermines any of this. Professional standards are important and are required. So I formally retract my softer position on what I said yesterday. Yikes, my humble apologies to anyone on this forum who is in fact an engineer. I am embarrassed I soft peddled this yesterday.-- Joseph

 

Just so you (and others) understand, I am not upset/mad/whatever with you or PE's in general.  I also hope you don't get offended by what I am typing... my goal is just a conversation.  If we end up disagreeing, it is what it is...

 

That said, @tweiss3and @Sshannon seem to get it, which is awesome to see.

 

@WQWX838  based on what you wrote, I think you (like many others I speak to) may believe that a PE is the only real engineer in the US, and that is incorrect.  For example, in my field, there are engineering programs accredited under the ANSI ISO/IEC Standard 17024:2003. They are the ONLY formally approved programs recognized by the U.S. Department of Defense in their Information Assurance Technical (IAT), Managerial (IAM), and System Architect and Engineer (IASAE) categories.  So, if someone wants to be an Engineer or Architect in my field, a PE accreditation is worthless. Candidates MUST be a certified Information Assurance System Architect and Engineer (IASAE) or employees aren't going to be allowed to work as an Engineer for the DoD, like... not at all.

 

To become a certified IA engineer or architect, not only are there training requirements, there is a minimum amount of time potential candidates have to spend in the industry before they are even allowed to signup for the test.  Also, even if their resume meets the time, training and relevant experience requirements, they still can't just signup for the test.  Candidates must have a currently certified IASAE vouch for you, by being your sponsor for taking the test.

 

I'm not taking anything away from PEs. I believe 100% that certified and licensed titles should be protected from fraudulent declarations by people.  I guess my point is I just think some PEs need to dial the arrogance back a bit and realize there are other types of engineering programs, certifications and licenses.  Its not "you're either a PE or your not an engineer."  Obviously, not all PEs think this way, but enough do that it has caused me some heartburn in the past.

Edited March 11, 2023 by marcspaz
Removed some text that may have been offensive.

[WQWX838]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:22 PM, marcspaz said:

Just so you (and others) understand, I am not upset/mad/whatever with you or PE's in general.  I also hope you don't get offended by what I am typing... my goal is just a conversation.  If we end up disagreeing, it is what it is...

Sure thing! I had just reflected on the significance of the larger picture and thought I better reposition. There is no way you could know my perspective, yet let me give you some detail and reason I had to do some back peddling. For 9 years and 9 months, I personally knew and had to deal with about 300 engineers of two kinds. I know how hard they worked to get through the program. For about 3%, it's not too stressful, for most it's very stressful. The university (Georgia Tech) I worked for (and none of them really) ever publish the mental effects of this stress (including suicides) that happen every year. I can can still see many of the faces in those programs. I just can't bring myself to diminish their struggles with the system (including my own), by throwing the "engineer" word around like that. I mentioned my brother, well I could also see all the others too. The word engineer, has at its implication a responsibility to the public based on a disciplined foundation built on years of structured and continually tested outcomes.

[Lscott]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:22 PM, marcspaz said:

Just so you (and others) understand, I am not upset/mad/whatever with you or PE's in general.  I also hope you don't get offended by what I am typing... my goal is just a conversation.  If we end up disagreeing, it is what it is...

I've had several good chuckles with my buddy. We both have our EE degree's. Where he's at they employ a lot of EE's with MS and PhD's. He says the guys come to him and ask how to do simulations, he has a lot of experience using Saber, which by the way is a heck of a mix mode complex simulator. I have to laugh because people with more degrees than a thermometer are asking him how to do stuff.

We had a Chinese PhD work in our department for several years. One day a board experienced a failed LED on a board he was working on. The guy spent some time downloading data sheets for LED's looking for a replacement. The Lab manager simply asked him why he didn't just get one out of the parts drawer and replace it. Sad but true.

The education, or lack thereof, people are getting in schools is shockingly poor in some cases. We were looking for somebody to do embedded programming. Had a lot of candidates with graduate degrees apply. One of the tests required the candidate to write some code to turn on an LED. We even asked them what processor and or development environment they have experience using, then had it setup when they arrived. Shockingly most couldn't do it! Some of the more interesting questions I asked was how do you turn two LED's on "simultaneously", nobody got that right. The idea was to see how well the candidate understands the connection between what the software does and how it affects the hardware. This was key to doing debugging on real hardware. You have to walk on both sides of the street so to speak, software and hardware.

We hired a young female EE out of school. She has been learning how to do schematic entry and PCB layouts. I told her the real learning comes when the prototype board she did arrives and she needs to get it working on the bench. That's when you learn where you made all your F'ups.

[WQWX838]

15 minutes ago, Lscott said:

We hired a young female EE out of school. She has been learning how to do schematic entry and PCB layouts. I told her the real learning comes when the prototype board she did arrives and she needs to get it working on the bench. That's when you learn where you made all your F'ups.

True that is... The purpose of a decent program is to build a solid foundation. This includes understanding how to learn, how to problem solve, and how to apply your foundation. This as you know is where solid knowledge gets built. Failure of something is a learning process toward success if possible. Graduate degree's don't mean you know everything, they mean you have specialized knowledge in some topic. Multidisciplinary teams can be best, as it builds much knowledge as we help each other to know things. IF everyone on the team has a decent foundation? We can move forward. If you are having problems finding candidates, talk to your hiring managers! They criteria they are using may be flawed somewhere. I knew lots of 20 somethings at GT that could do some amazing things are highly motivated.

[Lscott]

42 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

True that is... The purpose of a decent program is to build a solid foundation.

I remember to this day what one interviewer told me during one of my job interviews out of school. It's as true to day as it was then. He said "All the degree proves is you have the ability to learn."

[Lscott]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:23 AM, tweiss3 said:

I also know plenty of other engineers in adjacent fields that the PE is not needed in their role for their engineering practice, and therefore may never get the licensure

I think it's become common, if not required, for engineers to sit for the initial PE exam to graduate at many schools.

[Lscott]

On 3/9/2023 at 11:56 AM, Sshannon said:

One of the very best chief engineers I ever worked under had no college degree and no P.E.  He had been trained in communications by the US Navy, and he had the knack.

I know people who can calculate anything, but I wouldn't trust them with a screwdriver. They might hurt themselves.

[SteveShannon]

19 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I think it's become common, if not required, for engineers to sit for the initial PE exam to graduate at many schools.

For an engineering degree at my alma mater, sitting for the EIT exam (Engineer in Training) which is now called the FE, for Fundamentals of Engineering, has been required for decades.  

The P.E. Exam cannot be taken until a person has four or five years of experience working (typically under the supervision of a P.E.) beyond a degree and requires written letters of recommendation from other P.E.s.  The process is intended to ensure actual competence and is pretty good for that.  I was fortunate in that my alma mater is heavily staffed with working engineers who actually know their fields hands-on rather than academic theory.  I was even more fortunate that I didn’t go to engineering school right out of high school.  I was 32 when I went back to school.

[WQWX838]

43 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

For an engineering degree at my alma mater, sitting for the EIT exam (Engineer in Training) which is now called the FE, for Fundamentals of Engineering, has been required for decades.  

The P.E. Exam cannot be taken until a person has four or five years of experience working (typically under the supervision of a P.E.) beyond a degree and requires written letters of recommendation from other P.E.s.  The process is intended to ensure actual competence and is pretty good for that.  I was fortunate in that my alma mater is heavily staffed with working engineers who actually know their fields hands-on rather than academic theory.  I was even more fortunate that I didn’t go to engineering school right out of high school.  I was 32 when I went back to school.

If I had 10 thumbs to give you 10 thumbs up at age 32 for attacking this? I would do it!

And yes, EIT 4 years until ready to take PE exam is the norm...

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

If I had 10 thumbs to give you 10 thumbs up at age 32 for attacking this? I would do it!

And yes, EIT 4 years until ready to take PE exam is the norm...

I was 32 with a 6 year old daughter, 4 year old daughter, and an extremely supportive wife.  It truly was a wonderful experience, but it was a challenge too. 

[WQWX838]

20 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I was 32 with a 6 year old daughter, 4 year old daughter, and an extremely supportive wife.  It truly was a wonderful experience, but it was a challenge too. 

Wow! OK, I will log back in here next week sometime when I get back yet couple things. You have one of the quality ones (wife) and I totally admire the decision to do this and see it through with all that going on at home too! Thank you for telling this personal detail... Perhaps it will be seen by someone and become a catalyst. Again major major thumbs up!