Hearing digital data sounds on GMRS8

[rockwithrick]

Is digital mode even allowed on gmrs 8 or any of the gmrs freq's.  I have my radio set to scan and someone is clearly transmitting digital on GMRS8, the length varies, so I am pretty sure its not a digital ID, its someone chatting in digital mode.  Its very annoying. 

Tried putting the freq in to my DMR radio to see if I could hear what it was, but it shows its receiving but I can't hear anything. 

[SteveShannon]

9 minutes ago, rockwithrick said:

Is digital mode even allowed on gmrs 8 or any of the gmrs freq's.  I have my radio set to scan and someone is clearly transmitting digital on GMRS8, the length varies, so I am pretty sure its not a digital ID, its someone chatting in digital mode.  Its very annoying. 

Tried putting the freq in to my DMR radio to see if I could hear what it was, but it shows its receiving but I can't hear anything. 

Digital data transmissions.Digital data transmissions are limited to the 462 MHz main channels and interstitial channels in the 462 MHz and 467 MHz bands. 

But, that’s not the same as digital voice, such as DMR.  Digital voice is not allowed on GMRS with the exception of some sites that applied for experimental usage.

[Lscott]

3 hours ago, rockwithrick said:

Tried putting the freq in to my DMR radio to see if I could hear what it was, but it shows its receiving but I can't hear anything. 

Depending on the DMR radio it might have a monitoring or promiscuous mode. That allows the radio to decode any DMR signal without the necessity of using the correct color code, slot number or talk group. For example my D878 has this feature. Turns out to be handy at times.

  https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/270-d878uv-model-1/?context=new

 

[OffRoaderX]

4 hours ago, rockwithrick said:

Is digital mode even allowed on gmrs 8 or any of the gmrs freq's.

No, but people do it all the time. Not just DMR but P25 and NXDN also.  It is much annoying.

[MarkInTampa]

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

Depending on the DMR radio it might have a monitoring or promiscuous mode. That allows the radio to decode any DMR signal without the necessity of using the correct color code, slot number or talk group. For example my D878 has this feature. Turns out to be handy at times.

  https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/270-d878uv-model-1/?context=new

 

There is a full blown MotoTrbo DMR repeater that has been eating up 462.700 in my area for over 6 months. Running my MD-380 DMR HT with 3rd party firmware in promiscuous mode ID's it as MotoTrbo but can't get much else because it's also encrypted DMR. It forced a long time local repeater to move frequencies because of it. It sucks but not much I can do about it, had to remove the frequency from my scan list.

[SteveShannon]

55 minutes ago, markskjerve said:

There is a full blown MotoTrbo DMR repeater that has been eating up 462.700 in my area for over 6 months. Running my MD-380 DMR HT with 3rd party firmware in promiscuous mode ID's it as MotoTrbo but can't get much else because it's also encrypted DMR. It forced a long time local repeater to move frequencies because of it. It sucks but not much I can do about it, had to remove the frequency from my scan list.

That’s exactly the kind of thing you should turn in to the FCC. 

[ULTRA2]

In my opinion the FCC won't do anything unless it interferes with a life and death situation.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

In my opinion the FCC won't do anything unless it interferes with a life and death situation.

This morning, a new thread started in "technical discussion" and it seems that (sometimes) the FCC is acting - and if they do, they are heavy handed ... 

( Strange picture - however  )

 

 

[OffRoaderX]

16 minutes ago, ULTRA2 said:

In my opinion the FCC won't do anything unless it interferes with a life and death situation.

Based on the actual track-record of FCC enforcements since 2012, statistically speaking, they wont do anything.

[rockwithrick]

Well, thanks for all the replies, I was reading on the FCC site, and digital data like Text messages and GPS location info is allowed on GMRS. Since Btech makes a radio that sends texts and gps info, that is probably what I am hearing.  So for now, I will just set a tone on that channel when I hear the digital data so I can't hear it. Not much else I can do.

[WRQJ280]

It’s likely an image freq. or intermodulation , from another frequency , a paging transmitter maybe IMO.

[Guest]

@WRQJ280

Welcome to the forum !!!

[WRQF576]

Isn't the BTECH GMRS-PRO doing data when sending GPS or texting?

[WRUU653]

10 minutes ago, WRQF576 said:

Isn't the BTECH GMRS-PRO doing data when sending GPS or texting?

Yes.

see the second post, from @Sshannon for more on this. 

[WRQI583]

Since this happens to be a common topic because people do illegally use digital voice on GMRS, here are some things that might help if anyone wants to really get into decoding digital voice - 

Nooelec SDR dongle $34
SDR console (free software)
DSD plus ($25? for the software)

Hook this into you computer, slap an antenna on your SDR (preferably an outdoor antenna) and start sweeping through the frequencies. When you come upon a digital signal, DSD plus will automatically start decoding what it is and will tell you exactly what they are running as far as time slots or if it is encrypted. The only thing it seems to have an issue with is Yaesu Fusion (something that seems to get used in areas where it isn't supposed to be used). After that, you should get a good idea who it is, especially if its a Ham. 9 times out of 10, Hams will do something dumb like this and not change their Ham Radio digital ID on the radio. DSD plus will pick it up.

[FMSC490]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:41 PM, WRQI583 said:

Since this happens to be a common topic because people do illegally use digital voice on GMRS, here are some things that might help if anyone wants to really get into decoding digital voice - 

Nooelec SDR dongle $34
SDR console (free software)
DSD plus ($25? for the software)

Hook this into you computer, slap an antenna on your SDR (preferably an outdoor antenna) and start sweeping through the frequencies. When you come upon a digital signal, DSD plus will automatically start decoding what it is and will tell you exactly what they are running as far as time slots or if it is encrypted. The only thing it seems to have an issue with is Yaesu Fusion (something that seems to get used in areas where it isn't supposed to be used). After that, you should get a good idea who it is, especially if its a Ham. 9 times out of 10, Hams will do something dumb like this and not change their Ham Radio digital ID on the radio. DSD plus will pick it up.

Could you expand on fusion misuse? Is that from Mars mod radios or another source? 

[WRQI583]

1 hour ago, FMSC490 said:

Could you expand on fusion misuse? Is that from Mars mod radios or another source? 

I have heard it used outside of the Ham Bands once or twice but mainly, its being used on simplex in areas where you "shouldn't" be using it because not everyone has fusion and if there was some sort of emergency, that frequency is being taken up by someone messing around on Fusion. Within the Ham bands I say misuse, not so much illegal, because I guess you can just start transmitting digital voice wherever and whenever you want, it is just frowned upon sort of like using APRS on anything other than 144.39. 

[SteveShannon]

51 minutes ago, WRQI583 said:

I have heard it used outside of the Ham Bands once or twice but mainly, its being used on simplex in areas where you "shouldn't" be using it because not everyone has fusion and if there was some sort of emergency, that frequency is being taken up by someone messing around on Fusion. Within the Ham bands I say misuse, not so much illegal, because I guess you can just start transmitting digital voice wherever and whenever you want, it is just frowned upon sort of like using APRS on anything other than 144.39. 

Are those areas where they “shouldn’t be using it” frequencies that have already identified for use somehow, such as the National calling frequency 146.520, or do they violate the area band plan?  

If not, a person with a digital radio (Fusion, DMR, or D*Star) has just as much right to use the frequency as anyone else.  

 

[Lscott]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:41 PM, WRQI583 said:

After that, you should get a good idea who it is, especially if its a Ham. 9 times out of 10, Hams will do something dumb like this and not change their Ham Radio digital ID on the radio.

Most radios you enter in a radio ID that’s universal, global, for all the channel settings. 

I noticed on my new Kenwood NX-1300DUK5’s you can have multiple ID’s in a list. You select which ID to use from the list, for each zone, collection of memory channels. This is done when building the code plug. To change ID’s you switch to a different zone.

I’ve notice DMR, very seldom, on some GMRS channels. I used my D878 in Digital Monitor mode to decode it. Looks like it was some local business. Somebody tried to save money by buying the wrong radios and further screwed up by programming them wrong. 

[WRQI583]

20 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Are those areas where they “shouldn’t be using it” frequencies that have already identified for use somehow, such as the National calling frequency 146.520, or do they violate the area band plan?  

If not, a person with a digital radio (Fusion, DMR, or D*Star) has just as much right to use the frequency as anyone else.  

 

Yeah, 52 is one place I have heard it. You are right, anyone can use the frequencies, the problem it creates is for the people who jump on Ham Radio who dont know what is going on, they will think 52 is not usable because of some digital noise, Or, if someone is hiking and has an emergency and decides to rely on 52 and instead of analog, they hear digital. Do they make an P25/DMR/NXDN/Fusion Radio? Nope, that person would have to make sure they now had 4 different radios on their belt for whatever digital mode someone might be running on a frequency that was known for analog.

The issue is that for some reason, these digital modes, contesting modes, any type of modes or behaviors on Ham radio are not the behavior of one person or a couple people, they become fads. One person does it, so a bunch of other people do it and think it is ok without thinking about the fact that maybe not everyone has digital or not everyone is going to have the form of digital they have. They are sitting on a calling frequency or other frequency that is known to have analog use and here they are changing things up without anyone else knowing or being ok with it. While not illegal, its not courteous to others. 

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, WRQI583 said:

Yeah, 52 is one place I have heard it. You are right, anyone can use the frequencies, the problem it creates is for the people who jump on Ham Radio who dont know what is going on, they will think 52 is not usable because of some digital noise, Or, if someone is hiking and has an emergency and decides to rely on 52 and instead of analog, they hear digital. Do they make an P25/DMR/NXDN/Fusion Radio? Nope, that person would have to make sure they now had 4 different radios on their belt for whatever digital mode someone might be running on a frequency that was known for analog.

The issue is that for some reason, these digital modes, contesting modes, any type of modes or behaviors on Ham radio are not the behavior of one person or a couple people, they become fads. One person does it, so a bunch of other people do it and think it is ok without thinking about the fact that maybe not everyone has digital or not everyone is going to have the form of digital they have. They are sitting on a calling frequency or other frequency that is known to have analog use and here they are changing things up without anyone else knowing or being ok with it. While not illegal, its not courteous to others. 

This should really be in the amateur radio forum rather than here, but I agree mostly with you.  I think it’s a matter of training for all users.  It’s a reflection of the fact that technician class opens up two bands to people with the least training.  There are calling frequencies for digital modes and most DMR traffic is on UHF, rather than VHF, but people do make mistakes and sometimes our smart radios don’t always help.  I had to turn off automatic mode detection on my FT5DR to avoid accidental transmissions using C4FM.

It’s also indicative that people are misusing the 2 meter national calling frequency as an emergency frequency.  If a person is going somewhere where they might need emergency communications they should probably get a PLB of some kind.

For those interested in a discussion of simplex frequencies and digital modes, here is a page listing the simplex frequencies for digital voice modes:

https://0x9900.com/dmr-or-c4fm-simplex-frequencies/

[MarkInTampa]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

It’s also indicative that people are misusing the 2 meter national calling frequency as an emergency frequency.  If a person is going somewhere where they might need emergency communications they should probably get a PLB of some 

A few of us use 146.520 for a informal Friday night analog simplex net and have a blast. Guaranteed every now and then we get somebody complaining that we shouldn't be doing that because we are on the calling frequency that has very little if any traffic most of the time unless it is our group. Guess that is where the term sad ham comes from.