Can I use Morse code to identify myself on my GMRS handheld radio?

[Slickii]

I've read the rules that say use to your call sign every 15 minutes and when you get off.  Also, you can use international morse code as your call sign.  I haven't seen anybody talk about doing this on their own except through a repeater.

 

Can I just use an audio file to play my call sign as morse code instead of saying it using my handheld GMRS radio?

[OffRoaderX]

5 minutes ago, Slickii said:

Can I just use an audio file to play my call sign as morse code instead of saying it using my handheld GMRS radio?

Based on my interpretation of the rules, yes.

WARNING: I am not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone else that will leave a reply is either, so be wary of taking legal advice from strangers - we would hate to see you get a $10,000 fine.

[marcspaz]

Better question is, does the FCC care? 

 

Honestly, the only reason why I use my call sign is because there is only one person with my call sign, but there are a lot of people on the radio named Marc. Makes it easier for people to call me by call sign instead of saying "hey, Marc "

[marcspaz]

13 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Based on my interpretation of the rules, yes.

WARNING: I am not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone else that will leave a reply is either, so be wary of taking legal advice from strangers - we would hate to see you get a $10,000 fine.

 

Im not a lawyer, but I play one on the internet.

[Slickii]

16 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

Better question is, does the FCC care?

They cared to say international morse code is fine to use for identification.  Maybe that's as far as their care went.  I'm guessing it seems foreign to us in America to identify with something that doesn't really identity you very well to others, meaning morse code isn't mainstream communication as much as speaking English.

[Hoppyjr]

Why be “that guy” when speaking your callsign isn’t exactly a heavy lift.

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, Slickii said:

Can I just use an audio file to play my call sign as morse code instead of saying it using my handheld GMRS radio?

I don't have a dog in the fight. ID how you want, and truth be told, every crotchety 90-year-old amateur radio operator who thinks CW is the only acceptable method of communicating almost exclusively IDs with CW, but to me it's quicker to just say WRQC527 than it would be to play an audio file that plays "dit dah dah dah   dit dah dit   dah dah dit dah   dah dit dah dit   dit dit dit dit dit   dit dit dah dah dah   dah dah dit dit dit".  Also, call me unenlightened, but where would you find a handheld radio that can transmit an audio file? There is a way to make Baofengs and other CCRs transmit up to a five-digit DTMF string when you key and/or unkey the PTT, (which, by the way, makes a pretty nifty customizable roger beep if you don't like the obnoxious standard-issue Baofeng beep), but as for an entire CW string, I ain't never heard of it. That don't mean it don't exist.

[Slickii]

14 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

where would you find a handheld radio that can transmit an audio file?

There's plenty of ways to your transmit a callsign as morse code.  Plus, I can think of mutuple useful and applicable uses for morse code over verbally saying a callsign.

I guess it's a matter of tech (also convenience) meets GMRS handheld radios would be the main reason people don't use morse code that much for identification.  Also, culture, which is basically all this anyway.

[OffRoaderX]

2 minutes ago, Slickii said:

I can think of mutuple useful and applicable uses for morse code over verbally saying a callsign.

Not on GMRS you cant.

[marcspaz]

4 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Not on GMRS you cant.

 

Your Honor, I object!!!  My client is being black-balled!

[Slickii]

6 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

Not on GMRS you cant.

What do you mean you can't?  I can do it right now.

[marcspaz]

3 minutes ago, Slickii said:

What do you mean you can't?  I can do it right now.

 

Technically, there is only one.  Station identification.  And there will be one ham radio operator on GMRS who did Morse Code in the Navy back in '47 who will know what he's hearing.

[Slickii]

9 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

Technically, there is only one.  Station identification.  And there will be one ham radio operator on GMRS who did Morse Code in the Navy back in '47 who will know what he's hearing.

I don't have a clue besides boy scouts in identifying morse code.  I doubt anybody else can listen fast enough to identify what's being transmitted.  I think like I said above it's a matter of being widely accepted culturally...  I have read though that you're not supposed to say things that could be used as code words.  Seems this idea of not understanding morse code may have slipped into that way of thinking for new users maybe?  Dunno.  I mean, just today I heard morse code on multiple channels.

[marcspaz]

@Slickii  yeah, it really is okay to use for ID and I think it's like 10 codes... in that there is an exception to every rule.  As long as you are compliant, I wouldn't worry much about anyone else's opinions.  All of my repeaters ID with Morse Code.  Voice modules are expensive, so I'm not buying one. 

 

I know I joke a lot, but in all seriousness, if I had a mobile or handheld radio that could do Morse ID on a timer, I would use it.

[SteveShannon]

Some repeater controllers ID using Morse Code.  The 70 cm repeater we use as a ham repeater does this. However, my understanding is that it does its identification without CTCSS. That helps in two related ways. The users of the repeater who have CTCSS set for receive don’t hear the ID, but anyone listening without CTCSS will hear the Morse code. 

[WRQC527]

51 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Some repeater controllers ID using Morse Code.

All four of my amateur repeaters ID with CW. But I do know of several that have voice IDers. And voice messages for nets and time of day. One of them even has the real Dick Van Dyke as the voice. 

[WRQC527]

5 hours ago, Slickii said:

Also, you can use international morse code as your call sign. 

Cornell Law                                                                                                                                                                                             Correct. You must use either voice or Morse code. Those are your two choices. That's what this excerpt from FCC 95.1751 tells us. Also, when you ID, you are not fulfilling an obligation to your fellow licensees. Whether they know CW or not is none of your concern. You are fulfilling your obligation to the folks who issued your license, whose rules you claimed you'd obey when you applied for it. 

(a) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

[Hoppyjr]

I think it’s pretty obvious that we’re all a bit nerdy, but that Morse code station ID is some next level pocket protector stuff.

[Lscott]

11 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

but as for an entire CW string, I ain't never heard of it. That don't mean it don't exist.

While the CW ID transmit isn't done on a timer, the function has to be assigned to a front panel key, it has to be manually selected each time to send. The one FM digital radio I have has the CW TX function built into the radio. The radio is also Part 95 certified too in case someone wants to know.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/251-nx-300jpg/?context=new

[quarterwave]

In Part 90, many times the majority or all of the users don't even know the call sign, let alone when to use it. Thus, auto ID on repeaters and base stations. If it's good there, it's good here. However, makes it harder for non-ham, or someone unskilled in CW to decode and know who they are talking to. I'm a ham and I don't know CW. 

[Lscott]

32 minutes ago, quarterwave said:

I'm a ham and I don't know CW. 

It's not even a required test element for any class of amateur license anymore.

[tweiss3]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:12 AM, Lscott said:

While the CW ID transmit isn't done on a timer, the function has to be assigned to a front panel key, it has to be manually selected each time to send. The one FM digital radio I have has the CW TX function built into the radio. The radio is also Part 95 certified too in case someone wants to know.

https://forums.mygmrs.com/gallery/image/251-nx-300jpg/?context=new

I'm still not sure why Kenwood only allows this on it's NXDN "personalities". I wish the offered it on analog, P25 and DMR personalities as well. To use it for GMRS, you have to make the personality NXDN, but input the channel as analog, but it does work.

[Lscott]

41 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

I'm still not sure why Kenwood only allows this on it's NXDN "personalities". I wish the offered it on analog, P25 and DMR personalities as well. To use it for GMRS, you have to make the personality NXDN, but input the channel as analog, but it does work.

I was wondering the exact same thing. My NX-1300's allow CW ID function in NXDN mode but not in DMR mode.

Just a wild guess on my part but I'm thinking it has to do with the TDMA nature of DMR. The radio has to kill the time slot selection, i.e. no time slots, and use straight FM to send the ID. If that was done on a repeater what happens to the other conversation on the other time slot? It gets hosed too?

With NXDN I suspect it's rather trivial to switch to FM to send the ID since there is no time slot to muck things up. You only have one conversation to worry about on a repeater channel.

The issue with P25 is with the newer Phase-2 mode which uses TDMA, just like DMR. And the same comments about DMR I think would apply.

[tweiss3]

3 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I was wondering the exact same thing. My NX-1300's allow CW ID function in NXDN mode but not in DMR mode.

Just a wild guess on my part but I'm thinking it has to do with the TDMA nature of DMR. The radio has to kill the time slot selection, i.e. no time slots, and use straight FM to send the ID. If that was done on a repeater what happens to the other conversation on the other time slot? It gets hosed too?

With NXDN I suspect it's rather trivial to switch to FM to send the ID since there is no time slot to muck things up. You only have one conversation to worry about on a repeater channel.

The issue with P25 is with the newer Phase-2 mode which uses TDMA, just like DMR. And the same comments about DMR I think would apply.

Not to derail this topic too far, but as far as Part 90 is concerned, under repeater use the mobile units will never need to identify. But under simplex use, which is actually not a small part of the Part 90 users (especially with itinerant use), atleast 1 unit is required to identify (instead of the repeater) for the user base, in the clear. It seems like its easy to pull off, but in asking around, other then Kenwood (in NXDN personalities only), its not possible, and usually ignored. FYI, the NXDN CW ID has it's own emissions, 4K00F2D.

Back the the question from the OP, yes it would be legal, both from a recording (since GMRS is not encrypted/scrambled) and from radio generated CW.

[Lscott]

17 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

Not to derail this topic too far, but as far as Part 90 is concerned, under repeater use the mobile units will never need to identify. But under simplex use, which is actually not a small part of the Part 90 users (especially with itinerant use), atleast 1 unit is required to identify (instead of the repeater) for the user base, in the clear. It seems like its easy to pull off, but in asking around, other then Kenwood (in NXDN personalities only), its not possible, and usually ignored. FYI, the NXDN CW ID has it's own emissions, 4K00F2D.

Back the the question from the OP, yes it would be legal, both from a recording (since GMRS is not encrypted/scrambled) and from radio generated CW.

I've read that ID'ing on Part 90 is regularly ignored. I guess the FCC doesn't care that much about their own rule.

I wasn't aware of the specific emission designation for CW ID on NXDN. Thanks.