GMRS and SHTF

[WRQC527]

So I thought this might be an interesting topic. Maybe it will die on the vine, maybe not. I see a lot of chatter here about SHTF comms, both GMRS and amateur radio. I'm curious what a SHTF scenario looks like to different folks, and how they think GMRS and other radio services may be incorporated. For me, a SHTF scenario doesn't look like a nationwide "someone hit the EMP switch and knocked the whole country back to the 1700s", it looks more like a local disaster like a major earthquake, where radios could help like they did a couple of weeks ago here when we had a 4.3 and I purposely tried to make a cell call just to see if it would work, (it didn't), but my repeater at 6,000 feet worked just fine and lots of us were communicating over a wide area.

[Raybestos]

12 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

So I thought this might be an interesting topic. Maybe it will die on the vine, maybe not. I see a lot of chatter here about SHTF comms, both GMRS and amateur radio. I'm curious what a SHTF scenario looks like to different folks, and how they think GMRS and other radio services may be incorporated. For me, a SHTF scenario doesn't look like a nationwide "someone hit the EMP switch and knocked the whole country back to the 1700s", it looks more like a local disaster like a major earthquake, where radios could help like they did a couple of weeks ago here when we had a 4.3 and I purposely tried to make a cell call just to see if it would work, (it didn't), but my repeater at 6,000 feet worked just fine and lots of us were communicating over a wide area.

You make a good point.  SHTF can take many forms and cover everything from a neighborhood, to the whole country, even the world.  If there were a widespread cellular outage lasting days or weeks, I imagine CB radios would start flying off the shelves in affected areas.  Believe it or not, they can still get your voice out, and bring others' voices in, just as they did in the 1970's.  Something that helps you find a working or stocked gas pump in time of shortage, is as valuable today as it was in 1973.  Just knowing you have the means contact another person and ask them to send help; in the event of a vehicular breakdown, collision, or perhaps being targeted by a hostile person or groups of people, could mean a lot.

When I talk of ham radio, it is not because I think hams are the greatest, the best, or anything; but the fact that there are a lot more ham repeaters in most places than GMRS, and they usually have greater range, makes it worth mentioning.  Although most hams do not participate in it, hams have a neat thing going for them called the National Traffic System or NTS.  This consists of long established nets, usually on 75 meters and 40 meters, that handle message "traffic" in the form of brief formatted messages, known as "Radiograms".  These nets meet daily or nightly and handle traffic coming into or going out of a given area, coming from or going to another area.  Frequently, these messages reach the final recipient in a day or two.  In the event of a situation like 9-11, health and welfare messages to loved ones who had no other means of knowing the status of a friend or family member in a disaster area can mean so much.

Learning how to format, copy, and relay these messages is an integral part of these hf (shortwave) nets.

In an area with a GMRS repeater with good coverage, as with CB, being able to communicate with others and knowing you are not totally alone can be a huge comfort.

[WRXB215]

Everyone has an SHTF and they all stink. 

Seriously though, for a few days after Beryl, neither land line nor cell phones worked for my family. I was still able to communicate via GMRS and ham. I've been thinking along the lines of emergency comms for about a year now and I think it's a good idea to have at least some kind of plan.

[Lscott]

26 minutes ago, WRXB215 said:

Everyone has an SHTF and they all stink. 

Seriously though, for a few days after Beryl, neither land line nor cell phones worked for my family. I was still able to communicate via GMRS and ham. I've been thinking along the lines of emergency comms for about a year now and I think it's a good idea to have at least some kind of plan.

A critical part is emergency power. Forget about gasoline generators. If the power goes out even gas stations won't have power to run the pumps. When your gasoline generator runs dry it's back to square one.

Back in 2003 great blackout only ONE gas station had emergency power. That one was only pumping gas for emergency vehicles and police. No exceptions. I had no power for about 3 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

Your options then are a natural gas powered generator. A propane powered one, at least you might fine bottled gas someplace. Or solar power with battery backup.

Ideally you have a combination of the above.

You can have all the radios in the world, but if the battery packs are dead, well you have a lot of paper weights.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

A critical part is emergency power. Forget about gasoline generators. If the power goes out even gas stations won't have power to run the pumps. When your gasoline generator runs dry it's back to square one.

Back in 2003 great blackout only ONE gas station had emergency power. That one was only pumping gas for emergency vehicles and police. No exceptions. I had no power for about 3 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

Your options then are a natural gas powered generator. A propane powered one, at least you might fine bottled gas someplace. Or solar power with battery backup.

Ideally you have a combination of the above.

You can have all the radios in the world, but if the battery packs are dead, well you have a lot of paper weights.

Even natural gas generators might only be a false comfort.  We had a huge blackout with a cold snap one year. The natural gas compressor stations were unable to run, line pack was lost and an entire town had to be relit.

[LeoG]

Well you can use a gasoline generator to power the pumps at the gas station.... Just saying.

For me in a communication down situation I just want it so I can contact the family.  I run a small repeater and they know where it is.  If you can't reach it there are other bigger repeaters they might be able to get through, but I suspect they'll be quite busy.  But contact through the repeater til you are in simplex range so the family can gather to define our situation. 

No real expected use to contact emergency personnel or anything like that.

[MaxHeadroom]

9 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

So I thought this might be an interesting topic. Maybe it will die on the vine, maybe not. I see a lot of chatter here about SHTF comms, both GMRS and amateur radio. I'm curious what a SHTF scenario looks like to different folks, and how they think GMRS and other radio services may be incorporated. For me, a SHTF scenario doesn't look like a nationwide "someone hit the EMP switch and knocked the whole country back to the 1700s", it looks more like a local disaster like a major earthquake, where radios could help like they did a couple of weeks ago here when we had a 4.3 and I purposely tried to make a cell call just to see if it would work, (it didn't), but my repeater at 6,000 feet worked just fine and lots of us were communicating over a wide area.

That is the intention with any repeater I install for my use or my family/friends. The 2 I have up locally are both on surplus telco batteries using RV solar panels/charge controllers with AC power to create essentially an "unlimited UPS" when shack power is lost. No internet linking, not even RF linking since power budget has to be taken into account for then your link radio and repeater. Wide area coverage, mobile-centric coverage. That is how most public safety systems are built as well since handheld coverage will always be the most "expensive" to design around no matter what.

I think most of the SHTF conversations have a lot in common, but never come to a similar conclusion - power and survivability being key. I think a lot of people see CB as a good alternative because "low power and less to maintain" except HF propagation is not to be relied on - and even DHS/FEMA/etc are getting a reality awakening on that end after throwing very expensive Codan radios at all agencies/hospitals/etc and then realizing its not guaranteed you can hit the next station 200 miles away. That is part of your SHTF - have to decide what matters and when/where because you'll never be able to feasibly cover "all risks".

[GreggInFL]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:52 AM, Raybestos said:

Learning how to format, copy, and relay these messages is an integral part of these hf (shortwave) nets.

One needs a General license for voice on HF, correct?

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

One needs a General license for voice on HF, correct?

There’s a portion of the 10 meter band (28.300 to 28.500 MHz) where technician class can operate SSB phone.

[Raybestos]

24 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

One needs a General license for voice on HF, correct?

For the most part.  As SteveShannon correctly noted, there is a small portion of 10m open to Technician.  For the 75m and 40m stuff that I mentioned, yes, you need at least a General.

[GreggInFL]

^Not what I wanted to hear, but it is what it is.

[Raybestos]

1 hour ago, GreggInFL said:

^Not what I wanted to hear, but it is what it is.

I know people get tired of hearing it, but Technician is a breeze and General is not really that bad, either.  I understand, many are not radio geeks like most of us hams, but all it takes is a little study for a week or few to pass it.  I will share a Deep dark secret with you and anyone else that is interested.  You don't have to know all of the stuff in the manual, just enough to pass the test.  Yeah, Extra is a bit of a b-word, but it can be done, too!  I recommend the Gordon West license manuals.  He takes what is essentially boring, dry, material and makes it so you can remember it, using humour and other devices.

Remember studying boring stuff like history, English, and all, in high school?  Studying for a ham license is very close to that, except it is something you already have a little bit of interest in.  No more Morse code test.  No more drawing schematic diagrams of specific oscillator circuits.  It is all multiple choice, and as you did in high school, you will hit questions where common sense and process of elimination will get you through it.

For instance:

"Profanity is allowed on ham radio:  

A) At any time.

B ) After 10 PM.

C)  Before 12:00 Noon.

D)  At no time.

Obviously, the answer would be "D".

I have always been mathematically bewildered.  When I decided it was time to upgrade from Advanced to Extra a dozen or so years ago, I bought a Gordon West "Extra" license manual.  I promptly lost it and didn't see it for about a year.  About a year later, I happened upon that manual.  I looked at it and a little voice inside told me to find out when the next VE testing session would be in my area.  It was one week from that day.  I studied like crazy.  Got to taking lots of online mock tests and trying to learn from my mistakes.  The best I made on any of those tests was like a 70-something, failing all of them.  Then I decided to actually study the math formulas using Gordon West's book.  I was actually learning to make them work, the day before the test.  The day of the test, I stopped by Starbucks and got a large iced mocha with extra espresso to keep the brain synapses firing.  Brought an extra $14 for a second VE test in case I failed the first one.

I took the test and for the life of me, there were a lot of questions I wasn't sure if I got right or wrong.  That was one of those tests that do happen, where nothing much seems like what you studied.  That is the reason for the extra money, in case you fail the first.  Odds are, a second test will be more familiar.

After I handed in my test, the examiner asked which I wanted first, the good news or the bad news.  I told him I was braced for the bad news and to go with it.  He said that if I hadn't missed two questions, I would have had a perfect score.

There is stuff on the Technician test that I am not interested in, never really grasped, and never will.  But like I said, all you need is enough to pass the test.

[GreggInFL]

^Thanks for that.  Great story.  Congratulations on your achievements.  I'll comment more later, timeline and all...

[WRUE951]

the way i look at it, SHTF would  de a major emergency so having a radio capable of many bandwidths would  be ideal (both portable and mobile).  As you all know,  during an emergency, Amateur Radio bands along with GMRS are open for emergency use without need of a license.   Also having a few EMP bags around that can protect radio transceivers, laptops etc is a must have and easy to obtain through the 'right' channels.  Also, keep a laptop you can easily stash in an EMP bag that has repeater sites, contact info, local police and emergency freqs, etc and other radio freq contact info for your immediate area.  And old ammo can works well for storing extra batteries, chargers, some gold and extra pair of eye glasses..    Get her ready...   Be prepared.   

[GreggInFL]

19 hours ago, Raybestos said:

I know people get tired of hearing it, but Technician is a breeze and General is not really that bad, either.  I understand, many are not radio geeks like most of us hams, but all it takes is a little study for a week or few to pass it.  I will share a Deep dark secret with you and anyone else that is interested.  You don't have to know all of the stuff in the manual, just enough to pass the test.  Yeah, Extra is a bit of a b-word, but it can be done, too!  I recommend the Gordon West license manuals.  He takes what is essentially boring, dry, material and makes it so you can remember it, using humour and other devices.

Remember studying boring stuff like history, English, and all, in high school?  Studying for a ham license is very close to that, except it is something you already have a little bit of interest in.  No more Morse code test.  No more drawing schematic diagrams of specific oscillator circuits.  It is all multiple choice, and as you did in high school, you will hit questions where common sense and process of elimination will get you through it.

For instance:

"Profanity is allowed on ham radio:  

A) At any time.

B ) After 10 PM.

C)  Before 12:00 Noon.

D)  At no time.

Obviously, the answer would be "D".

I have always been mathematically bewildered.  When I decided it was time to upgrade from Advanced to Extra a dozen or so years ago, I bought a Gordon West "Extra" license manual.  I promptly lost it and didn't see it for about a year.  About a year later, I happened upon that manual.  I looked at it and a little voice inside told me to find out when the next VE testing session would be in my area.  It was one week from that day.  I studied like crazy.  Got to taking lots of online mock tests and trying to learn from my mistakes.  The best I made on any of those tests was like a 70-something, failing all of them.  Then I decided to actually study the math formulas using Gordon West's book.  I was actually learning to make them work, the day before the test.  The day of the test, I stopped by Starbucks and got a large iced mocha with extra espresso to keep the brain synapses firing.  Brought an extra $14 for a second VE test in case I failed the first one.

I took the test and for the life of me, there were a lot of questions I wasn't sure if I got right or wrong.  That was one of those tests that do happen, where nothing much seems like what you studied.  That is the reason for the extra money, in case you fail the first.  Odds are, a second test will be more familiar.

After I handed in my test, the examiner asked which I wanted first, the good news or the bad news.  I told him I was braced for the bad news and to go with it.  He said that if I hadn't missed two questions, I would have had a perfect score.

There is stuff on the Technician test that I am not interested in, never really grasped, and never will.  But like I said, all you need is enough to pass the test.

The only license that has value to me is the General (given that I can't get to HF with a Tech license) but I'm not going to take two tests to get there. One yes, two no.  I'm a registered PE with a masters degree so testing isn't something I find intimidating.  I'll jump through one hoop, but not two.

There is a better way to do this.  For example, I hold an advanced certification in a specialized field. To get that one does not pass a beginners exam, then an intermediate exam and finally the advanced exam.  One enters the program by taking an assessment exam which establishes a level of certification -- beginner, intermediate or advanced.  I first tested in at the intermediate level, studied more and then passed the same exam at the advanced level.  One exam.

The FCC should give all applicants the Extra exam and issue appropriate licenses based on performance.  If the applicant wants a higher-level license they can study and take the exam again.  One exam.

[LeoG]

But how would they charge you for each test then?

[Lscott]

26 minutes ago, GreggInFL said:

The FCC should give all applicants the Extra exam and issue appropriate licenses based on performance.  If the applicant wants a higher-level license they can study and take the exam again.  One exam.

That's sort of how they do it in Canada.

https://www.rac.ca/requirements/  

Our new guy in my department is Canadian, commutes between Windsor and the Detroit area everyday. He wants to get his Ham license, but it has to be through Canada. Both counties have a reciprocal operating agreement making it VERY easy and simple for Hams to operate in the other country. I think even as a Canadian he would be qualified to get a GMRS license for the US from my quick reading of the requirements. They don't have GMRS licenses in Canada. There it's more like our license free FRS service.

[GreggInFL]

20 minutes ago, LeoG said:

But how would they charge you for each test then?

Triple the price?

[LeoG]

I'm betting they plan on doing that anyway.

[Lscott]

27 minutes ago, LeoG said:

But how would they charge you for each test then?

I first got my Tech Class license to begin with. Then some years later when the FCC dropped the CW requirement I sat for the General exam for a nominal fee. All I had to do was pass it first then I was allowed to take the Extra exam at the same test setting. No extra fee was charged, for the Extra exam, for that at the time. The 80 year old VE dude had a really sour look on his face since I walked in as a Tech and walked out as an Extra. Oh well.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

I first got my Tech Class license to begin with. Then some years later when the FCC dropped the CW requirement I sat for the General exam for a nominal fee. All I had to do was pass it first then I was allowed to take the Extra exam at the same test setting. No extra fee was charged, for the Extra exam, for that at the time. The 80 year old VE dude had a really sour look on his face since I walked in as a Tech and walked out as an Extra. Oh well.

Perhaps there are some like that, but all the VEs I know are very welcoming of folks who take multiple tests in one sitting. I got lucky and passed all three and they were very positive afterwards. In fact, shortly afterwards the VEC asked me if I would help as a VE. 

[Lscott]

9 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Perhaps there are some like that, but all the VEs I know are very welcoming of folks who take multiple tests in one sitting. I got lucky and passed all three and they were very positive afterwards. In fact, shortly afterwards the VEC asked me if I would help as a VE. 

When I took the General and Extra exams, that was very shortly after the FCC dropped the CW requirement. I can tell you a LOT of Hams, particularly Extra Class, were upset because the CW test wasn't easy at that level. That was about the only real skill you couldn't sit down and memorize, like the question pool, but really had to demonstrate. Once that was gone so was the prestige that went with being an Extra. It didn't take long before those who passed the Extra exam without CW were being called "Extra Lite" by those who did. After all these years you still hear it on the air at times by those still sour over the issue. That's OK, still lots of other people to talk to on the air who don't care.

[dosw]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

Extra Lite .... After all these years you still hear it on the air at times by those still sour over the issue.

That sounds very sad ham-ish, indeed. And at this point, it's been 19 years. I imagine that a substantial portion of the Extra class operators who looked with fondness upon the CW requirement as a rite of passage, have already found safe passage into the pearly gates.

 

[Raybestos]

2 hours ago, Lscott said:

When I took the General and Extra exams, that was very shortly after the FCC dropped the CW requirement. I can tell you a LOT of Hams, particularly Extra Class, were upset because the CW test wasn't easy at that level. That was about the only real skill you couldn't sit down and memorize, like the question pool, but really had to demonstrate. Once that was gone so was the prestige that went with being an Extra. It didn't take long before those who passed the Extra exam without CW were being called "Extra Lite" by those who did. After all these years you still hear it on the air at times by those still sour over the issue. That's OK, still lots of other people to talk to on the air who don't care.

You are right!  As a Tech Plus (no longer issued but used to be Technician with 5 WPM code), I finally got my 13 WPM code test behind me.  Unfortunately, I had not studied the then current General question pool and failed the written test.  I studied the then current General manual and found a VE group about an hour away that was doing testing.  Passed the General written test and the VE asked if I wanted to try for Advanced.  I hadn't really studied for Advanced but what the hey?  Why not?  Had I missed one more question, I would have failed, but as it was, I left the session with an Advanced CSCE (Certificate Successful Completion of Element).  My plan was to get the 20 WPM code under my belt, then get the Extra written.  The FCC had other plans.  They dropped Morse for all license classes requiring Morse to 5 WPM.  At the same time, they streamlined it to three license classes, Technician, General, and Extra.  Some months later they dropped the Morse requirement entirely.  I recall the hostility toward Extras who passed only the 5 WPM test, and later, the "No Code Extras".  That was one reason I held on to my Advanced for so long.  There was no way to have Advanced without having passed 13 WPM and the hostile old pharts knew that.

The hostility towards 5 WPM and No Code Extras is wrong.  Even if a person studied, practiced, and used, Morse at 30 WPM, there is and has been no vehicle for Morse testing since around the year 2000.  

[Lscott]

 Very true. As things stand now there is little to be gained by passing the Extra exam, other than an extra TINY sliver of spectrum on various HF bands reserved exclusively for those so licensed. Many Hams get their General now and stop there.

I don’t think about mine much. I hang out on VHF and UHF so HF access isn’t a big deal. The digital voice modes are fun, and most of that activity is on UHF anyway.