Issues With Accessing Repeater

[WSEM958]

Good afternoon...please forgive my ignorance -- total GMRS newbie! I got my programming cable and input the 67.0 Hz tone input using the "tone" mode. Hit the squelch quickly to see if I got a response back from the repeater...did not. Now I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or and really not making contact. I have a BTECH GMRS-50v2 base station with a Nagoya Mode NMO-200C antenna sitting at the highest point in my 2nd floor office, facing north. I live in Fawn Lake, so this should be fairly easy to reach the repeater. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? Thanks, Steve

[BoxCar]

What is your antenna mounted on in your office? You need to have it connected to a piece of metal as a ground plane for the antenna to work correctly.

[WRQC527]

7 minutes ago, WSEM958 said:

Good afternoon...please forgive my ignorance -- total GMRS newbie! I got my programming cable and input the 67.0 Hz tone input using the "tone" mode. Hit the squelch quickly to see if I got a response back from the repeater...did not. Now I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or and really not making contact. I have a BTECH GMRS-50v2 base station with a Nagoya Mode NMO-200C antenna sitting at the highest point in my 2nd floor office, facing north. I live in Fawn Lake, so this should be fairly easy to reach the repeater. Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? Thanks, Steve

Are you sure your radio is set to the correct channel for the repeater you are trying to reach?

[Socalgmrs]

Did you hit  the squelch button (not correct) or the ptt button (correct)?  Did you ask for a radio check? Can you hear the repeater traffic on simplex? Then after you have set up the repeater channel and tones can you hear the repeater on that channel?   How far away from the repeater are you?   Do you have line of sight?  
what co-ax are you using?    Since this is gmrs do you have friends of family in the area that also have radios that you can test the radio out with before going to a repeater?  

[WSEM958]

3 hours ago, BoxCar said:

What is your antenna mounted on in your office? You need to have it connected to a piece of metal as a ground plane for the antenna to work correctly.

Hi Box car...I was told that since my antenna was mounted inside my home vs outside that it did not need a grounding plane. I currently have it in a magnetic base sitting on a bunch of boxes next to my outside wall which is facing North in the direction of the repeater I'm trying to connect with. The base and cable are: Anina NMO Antenna Magnetic Base Mount 16.4 FT RG58 Coaxial Cable PL-259 Plug with NMO Antenna Mount Cap for CB Ham Radio Truck Marine VHF Radio. What do you recommend? Thanks!

[BoxCar]

Put the mag mount on a cookie sheet or 16 inch pizza pan and test again. Unless your antenna is specifically marked as a No Ground Plane required, it needs a ground plane as the ground plane is actually an integral part of the antenna's makeup.

[WSEM958]

19 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Put the mag mount on a cookie sheet or 16 inch pizza pan and test again. Unless your antenna is specifically marked as a No Ground Plane required, it needs a ground plane as the ground plane is actually an integral part of the antenna's makeup.

Great...many thanks!

[WSEM958]

21 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Put the mag mount on a cookie sheet or 16 inch pizza pan and test again. Unless your antenna is specifically marked as a No Ground Plane required, it needs a ground plane as the ground plane is actually an integral part of the antenna's makeup.

Great...many thanks!

[WSEM958]

Thanks for your response. I'm using the side transmission button on my mic handheld. Please see my response to Boxcar on coax type. I'm pretty close to the repeater, but we are nestled in the Wilderness part of Fawn Lake. Pretty sure we have line-of-sight...relatively flat here, just lots of trees. Haven't tried simplex yet, but I will shortly. I will also be trying to talk to local radio soon as well. Hopefully after getting this stuff correct, I will make contact with the repeater. Best, Steve

[Socalgmrs]

You’re still going to need to know your distance to the repeater.     Like already said you for sure need a ground plane for that antenna. A cookie or pizza sheet works very well.     That radio 50W with 10ft of rg58 and the 5.5db gain antenna you have your radiating around 100w. That’s not very much at all.     It may or may not be enough to get through the trees and still make what ever distance you need to make to the repeater.   Are we talking 1 mile or 4 or 10 or 20plus? My 50 watt system  radiates around 700 watts. It will cut through most anything.   But at 100w with trees may become an issue especially since your already inside a building.   

[WRUU653]

Aside from the ground plane (a good observation from @BoxCar),  make sure you are programmed on a repeater channel (23-30, 31-38…) as mentioned by @WRQC527 . These will have the preset offset. Otherwise you may be trying to reach the repeater on simplex. 

[WSEM958]

14 hours ago, WRXP381 said:

You’re still going to need to know your distance to the repeater.     Like already said you for sure need a ground plane for that antenna. A cookie or pizza sheet works very well.     That radio 50W with 10ft of rg58 and the 5.5db gain antenna you have your radiating around 100w. That’s not very much at all.     It may or may not be enough to get through the trees and still make what ever distance you need to make to the repeater.   Are we talking 1 mile or 4 or 10 or 20plus? My 50 watt system  radiates around 700 watts. It will cut through most anything.   But at 100w with trees may become an issue especially since your already inside a building.   

 

14 hours ago, WRXP381 said:

You’re still going to need to know your distance to the repeater.     Like already said you for sure need a ground plane for that antenna. A cookie or pizza sheet works very well.     That radio 50W with 10ft of rg58 and the 5.5db gain antenna you have your radiating around 100w. That’s not very much at all.     It may or may not be enough to get through the trees and still make what ever distance you need to make to the repeater.   Are we talking 1 mile or 4 or 10 or 20plus? My 50 watt system  radiates around 700 watts. It will cut through most anything.   But at 100w with trees may become an issue especially since your already inside a building.   

I think you are right...probably being blocked by the trees. How are you getting700 watts of radiated power...what antenna would I need? 

[SteveShannon]

10*log(700/50) = 11.4612803568 dB

So you would need an antenna with about 11.46 dB of gain.  The problem is an antenna with that much gain in one direction is that it pays for it by reducing the ability to transmit and receive in other directions.

[BoxCar]

As UHF is primarily line-of-sight, increased power either from the transmitter or antenna gain does not equate to further distance. The increase is in signal density or available RF energy in the same area. The two things most responsible for better service are antenna height above ground (AGL) and our friend, signal density. Antennas increase signal density by "squishing" the radiation pattern from a ball shape toward an egg shaped oval. The higher the antenna gain the more the signal is "squished" flat. The biggest help in your situation will be getting the antenna higher above ground level.

[WSEM958]

1 hour ago, WSEM958 said:

 

I think you are right...probably being blocked by the trees. How are you getting700 watts of radiated power...what antenna would I need? 

Looks like 7.2 miles as the crow flies. Guess I need to find a more powerful antenna...any suggestions? BTW...don't know if it matters but I get several of the NOAA channels Chrystal clear. Many thanks!

[WSEM958]

46 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

As UHF is primarily line-of-sight, increased power either from the transmitter or antenna gain does not equate to further distance. The increase is in signal density or available RF energy in the same area. The two things most responsible for better service are antenna height above ground (AGL) and our friend, signal density. Antennas increase signal density by "squishing" the radiation pattern from a ball shape toward an egg shaped oval. The higher the antenna gain the more the signal is "squished" flat. The biggest help in your situation will be getting the antenna higher above ground level.

Unfortunately we are in a rental plus HOA probably wouldn't allow an outside tower even if I could get permission from the owner. Antenna radiation density is going to be my only hope...any recommendations? Many thanks!

[WSEM958]

1 hour ago, WSEM958 said:

 

I think you are right...probably being blocked by the trees. How are you getting700 watts of radiated power...what antenna would I need? 

7.2 miles as the crow fly's.... many thanks!

[SteveShannon]

I don't think you need a "more powerful antenna."  7.2 miles isn't terribly far.  Any reasonable outdoor antenna up on your roof (maybe in an upstairs window even) should be able to do that.

Try removing the tone squelch on receive on the repeater channel.  Do you hear the repeater?

 

[WSEM958]

Hi Steve...thanks for your response. Unfortunately, setting it up outside is not going to work for us...best I can do is put it up as high as possible in one of our upstairs bedrooms. We live in Fawn Lake right in the Wilderness woods, so mostly surrounded by tall trees that we couldn't get over even with a hundred-foot antenna. No choice but to try to bull our signal through the mostly flat tree covered area (probably about 1/4 to 1/2 mile thick. We have nine-foot ceilings so with a tripod and grounding plane we would be down to about 7' or so of clearance. Really would like to get the most powerful antenna I can to fit in that environment.  I can position in a window to the South, East or North. The two repeaters I'm trying to connect with are the Battlefield GMRS Repeater (North about 7.2 miles) and the Gordonsville W4CUL - CARA repeater (SE about 25 miles). I think less trees between me and the latter repeater even though farther distance. Would like to get to that repeater to talk with my son who lives in Rhoadsville and the other my wife when she is shopping around Fredericksburg.  I I'm looking for recommendations on the best antenna option to overcome these challenges. 

Also, would you know anyone within Fawn Lake or nearby who may have already solved this problem and who I might be able to discuss it with?

 

Many thanks! Steve

[SteveShannon]

54 minutes ago, WSEM958 said:

Hi Steve...thanks for your response. Unfortunately, setting it up outside is not going to work for us...best I can do is put it up as high as possible in one of our upstairs bedrooms. We live in Fawn Lake right in the Wilderness woods, so mostly surrounded by tall trees that we couldn't get over even with a hundred-foot antenna. No choice but to try to bull our signal through the mostly flat tree covered area (probably about 1/4 to 1/2 mile thick. We have nine-foot ceilings so with a tripod and grounding plane we would be down to about 7' or so of clearance. Really would like to get the most powerful antenna I can to fit in that environment.  I can position in a window to the South, East or North. The two repeaters I'm trying to connect with are the Battlefield GMRS Repeater (North about 7.2 miles) and the Gordonsville W4CUL - CARA repeater (SE about 25 miles). I think less trees between me and the latter repeater even though farther distance. Would like to get to that repeater to talk with my son who lives in Rhoadsville and the other my wife when she is shopping around Fredericksburg.  I I'm looking for recommendations on the best antenna option to overcome these challenges. 

Also, would you know anyone within Fawn Lake or nearby who may have already solved this problem and who I might be able to discuss it with?

 

Many thanks! Steve

Unfortunately i don’t know anyone in your area. I’m in Montana. 

A Yagi antenna gives you the greatest gain, but it’s very directional. With your situation of wanting to hit two different repeaters in different directions you would either need to rotate the antenna to change repeaters or have two antennas and an antenna switch. 
Are you allowed to have a tv antenna?

Are you certain that you can’t receive from either repeater? I always suggest listening on the correct frequency with no tone, just to see if you can hear. Adding the tone at that stage just adds another variable that can confuse matters. If you can hear the repeaters your trees are not an insurmountable problem. 

[WSEM958]

On 9/13/2024 at 2:15 PM, SteveShannon said:

Unfortunately i don’t know anyone in your area. I’m in Montana. 

A Yagi antenna gives you the greatest gain, but it’s very directional. With your situation of wanting to hit two different repeaters in different directions you would either need to rotate the antenna to change repeaters or have two antennas and an antenna switch. 
Are you allowed to have a tv antenna?

Are you certain that you can’t receive from either repeater? I always suggest listening on the correct frequency with no tone, just to see if you can hear. Adding the tone at that stage just adds another variable that can confuse matters. If you can hear the repeaters your trees are not an insurmountable problem. 

Thanks...I think I'm heading in the two-antenna direction. Would use the Yagi for directional access to the repeaters and a good omni for general non repeater conversation. Best, Steve