New to GMRS - State to State Question

[prmirage]

Hello everyone,

I live in Las Vegas, NV and I'm new to GMRA use, really radio use in general. I've been doing as much reading as I can to get a better understanding of what GMRS is capable of but I'm still a noob. I'm currently using a handheld Baofeng GMRS-9R and it seems to be working really well. One thing I really haven't found much information on is how to communicate state-to-state to another handheld radio, if even possible. I have programmed some local repeaters and have been checking into some nets to test clarity and signal strength and am happy so far. One thing I discovered is some users communicating all the way from as far as AZ. A buddy of mine out in California has the same radio as I do and we have been wanting to see if we can communicate with each other. We can't seem to find any information on how that is possible and I am stumped as to how these users are able to join nets from Arizona to Las Vegas. I assume they have a base station but my question is this:

Is it possible for two handhelds to communicate through repeaters from state to state - Ex: Riverside, CA to Las Vegas, NV? If so, how is that done exactly and could you give a config example?

I apologize if this post is so noobish that it insults anyone's intelligence but any advise you can lend would be appreciated.

 

WSCH944 - Arvi

[dosw]

The typical range handheld-to-handheld is going to be 1/2 to 10 miles (the high end if you're pretty lucky). If you're at an elevation much higher than everything around you, you may get significantly better range, but most people are only getting a couple miles of reliable use handheld to handheld.

Talking through a repeater can be better; if your repeater is well situated on a mountain peak you might be able to reach it from 20, 40, even 60 miles away. And if someone else receiving that repeater is also lucky, and able to reach it 60 miles away, there could be up to 120 miles between you. But everyone reads this sort of information and thinks that's going to be their own experience. A much more typical experience is working a repeater 1-20 miles away, talking to other people 1-20 miles away from a repeater, with some of them 40 miles away from you.

If you live within 40 miles of the state line, it's possible through a repeater to talk to someone on the other side of the state line, if the terrain are working in your favor.

There are a lot of ifs there. Mostly for cross-state-line communications GMRS isn't the right tool. Repeater linking is not a GMRS thing anymore. That's more of a ham thing.

Over GMRS, you will not be talking from Riverside to Las Vegas, regardless of whether you're using a handheld or mobile. You could do that over 10m ham with a tech license (amateur tech has a partial swath of privileges in 10m), or in lower HF bands with a General class license and a suitable HF radio. It won't be handheld.

[Guest]

I pmed you so you can get real info and not from some person that has no clue. 200plus miles across the desert is. It only possible but happens each and every day 

[prmirage]

34 minutes ago, dosw said:

The typical range handheld-to-handheld is going to be 1/2 to 10 miles (the high end if you're pretty lucky). If you're at an elevation much higher than everything around you, you may get significantly better range, but most people are only getting a couple miles of reliable use handheld to handheld.

Talking through a repeater can be better; if your repeater is well situated on a mountain peak you might be able to reach it from 20, 40, even 60 miles away. And if someone else receiving that repeater is also lucky, and able to reach it 60 miles away, there could be up to 120 miles between you. But everyone reads this sort of information and thinks that's going to be their own experience. A much more typical experience is working a repeater 1-20 miles away, talking to other people 1-20 miles away from a repeater, with some of them 40 miles away from you.

If you live within 40 miles of the state line, it's possible through a repeater to talk to someone on the other side of the state line, if the terrain are working in your favor.

There are a lot of ifs there. Mostly for cross-state-line communications GMRS isn't the right tool. Repeater linking is not a GMRS thing anymore. That's more of a ham thing.

Over GMRS, you will not be talking from Riverside to Las Vegas, regardless of whether you're using a handheld or mobile. You could do that over 10m ham with a tech license (amateur tech has a partial swath of privileges in 10m), or in lower HF bands with a General class license and a suitable HF radio. It won't be handheld.

This seems to be the popular consensus. Thank you for replying!

[WRUE951]

Be weary of cockroaces asking for money....  

[prmirage]

4 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

Be weary of cockroaces asking for money....  

Duly noted.

[WRYZ926]

Now if you live on a mountain top and the other person or repeater is on a mountain top with wide ope spaces in between then you can talk a long way when using a good base station antenna. But a hand held with a stock rubber duck antenna will not have near the range. Getting 200 miles is the exception and not the norm for most people. Again even with ideal conditions, you are going to be hard pressed to get that kind of range from hand held radios.

[prmirage]

I think I may eventually put together a base station as funds permit. My list of hobbies is getting expensive.

[WRXB215]

@prmirage don't let @Socalgmrs talk you into throwing your radio in the trash.

[dosw]

Let's have a look to see the elevation plot through the desert between Riverside (at valley level) and Vegas (at valley level):

Let's also assume there's a repeater at the highest point between, and look at the plots between Riverside and that highest point, and between that highest point and Vegas:

 

It looks like the path from Riverside to this high point is mostly okay. Between Vegas and that point, though, it's looking like the southern end of the Red Rock Canyon NP and north end of Bird Springs HP mountain range are getting in the way.

If both stations were 200 feet above ground at the same elevation with nothing but the curvature of the earth between them, 64 miles is going to be about the limit, plus a little for atmospheric ducting.

It's not impossible that a great repeater could cover this distance with a mountain range between, but without additional information explaining the conditions that would make it possible, the safer assumption is that it's not happening.

I don't mind finding out I'm wrong, but I'd prefer that enlightenment, and supporting evidence not be withheld from us; this started out a public conversation. It's fine being incorrect publicly if there's some information that should have considered. But please do share it with us all so we're all more informed.

 

[TrikeRadio]

This looks like a job for Amateur (HAM) radio if you did really want to talk between Vegas and Riverside, CA... Which means getting a Ham license and your receiving party also studying for a Ham license ... and getting some serious antennas and radios setup at your homes. Sorry... GMRS is not really capable of this. HAM on the other hand does have some linked repeaters that might be able to relay the transmission even if you were not able to get a simplex (Radio to radio direct) connection with Ham Radio.

[WRYZ926]

I have to agree with you @dosw plus you gave good visual reasons on why that would be hard to do for the OP.

I was stationed at FT Irwin Ca which is about halfway between LA and Vegas.  Cajon Pass by itself is high enough to cause issues for anyone living in the valley.

We had to use relay stations at Ft Irwin on the live fire ranges in order to talk to main base with our radios. The relay stations/repeaters were on the highest peak of the Granite Mountains on base. 

So getting from Riverside, Ca to Vegas is not going to happen, especially with hand held radios. There are just too many mountains in between.

[WRYZ926]

Just now, TrikeRadio said:

This looks like a job for Amateur (HAM) radio if you did really want to talk between Vegas and Riverside, CA... Which means getting a Ham license and your receiving party also studying for a Ham license ... and getting some serious antennas and radios setup at your homes. Sorry... GMRS is not really capable of this. HAM on the other hand does have some linked repeaters that might be able to relay the transmission even if you were not able to get a simplex (Radio to radio direct) connection with Ham Radio.

It would take linked repeaters or the use of the HF bands to make that trip.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, prmirage said:

I think I may eventually put together a base station as funds permit. My list of hobbies is getting expensive.

A base station has exactly the same power as a mobile station. The only difference is that it’s possible to have a high antenna with high gain that might be pointed towards another high antenna. Except for special circumstances that’s unlikely to get you very far though because UHF radios transmit in a mostly straight line and once that line is past the horizon it is still going straight as the earth’s surface curves away from it. UHF isn’t as likely to reflect from the atmosphere as lower frequencies are; it just goes shooting off into space. 
There are people who live on the side of a mountain range who can transmit in a straight line to another mountain range that’s 200 miles away but that’s not a common occurrence. 
An amateur radio in the HF bands is much more likely to transmit multiple states away. I have reached Australia and Antarctica from Montana on 10-50 watts on the HF bands using a weak signal mode called FT8.

[dosw]

2 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

It would take linked repeaters or the use of the HF bands to make that trip.

That's what I'm thinking, too.

I'm in the SLC area. There are 2m linked repeater networks that reach into Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, and even down to Las Vegas, which is a six hour drive from here. But that's not a single well-positioned repeater. It's a fully linked network known as the Intermountain Intertie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermountain_Intertie

To use that network one would need an Amateur Technician class license. I would be surprised if there weren't similar networks between southern California and Vegas. 2m and 70cm are where you'll find interconnected repeaters.

 

The other alternative is an Amateur General class license. With that the 20m, 40m, and 80m bands will be available to you, and getting signals to bounce off the atmosphere from Riverside to Las Vegas will be a fun pursuit. HF radio isn't going to be quite as reliable as repeaters. Well, that's not entirely true. With a repeater, you're depending on other peoples' equipment, goodwill, and competence. With HF it's all on you. But with HF you're relying on mother nature to a much larger degree. You have to figure out when bands are open at various times of day, times of the year, and solar cycles. If you're unassisted by online tools, you would need to listen for known beacons to spot band openings. More challenging but it seems like it would be fun. (I've got the Tech but not General, so I'm sidelined in HF except for a small section of 10m).

[prmirage]

16 hours ago, dosw said:

Let's have a look to see the elevation plot through the desert between Riverside (at valley level) and Vegas (at valley level):

Let's also assume there's a repeater at the highest point between, and look at the plots between Riverside and that highest point, and between that highest point and Vegas:

 

It looks like the path from Riverside to this high point is mostly okay. Between Vegas and that point, though, it's looking like the southern end of the Red Rock Canyon NP and north end of Bird Springs HP mountain range are getting in the way.

If both stations were 200 feet above ground at the same elevation with nothing but the curvature of the earth between them, 64 miles is going to be about the limit, plus a little for atmospheric ducting.

It's not impossible that a great repeater could cover this distance with a mountain range between, but without additional information explaining the conditions that would make it possible, the safer assumption is that it's not happening.

I don't mind finding out I'm wrong, but I'd prefer that enlightenment, and supporting evidence not be withheld from us; this started out a public conversation. It's fine being incorrect publicly if there's some information that should have considered. But please do share it with us all so we're all more informed.

 

Wow this visual makes a big difference. Thank you very much for taking the time to show me this on a map. Great learning experience. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

[prmirage]

Thank you all for your replies. Didn't get a chance to jump back on here last night, sliced my hand pretty good doing turkey day prep. I do appreciate all your input and tutelage. @dosw again, GREAT MAPS and thank you! Y'all have a great Thanksgiving!

[dosw]

Here's the link I use for those elevation plots: https://www.scadacore.com/tools/rf-path/rf-line-of-sight/

And for earth curvature I prefer https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/line-of-sight-calculator

That second one requires that you add together two calculations; your antenna height-to-horizon, and the remote antenna height-to-horizon, and it assumes the terrain is flat except for the curvature, as would be found on the ocean.

 

By the way, here's a repeater, 63.5 miles away, that I can hit very reliably:

Here's another that is very reliable for me at 43.3 miles:

And this one, closer at 21.95 miles:

One of the best near me is on 2m ham, with propagation all the way to the Colorado border:

But look at its elevation: 11,068 feet!