Argument against Busy Channel Lock

[WRNU354]

My enabling Busy Channel Lock (BUSYLOCK) on my radios seemed like a simple courtesy to reduce the chance of accidentally stepping on others.

Before enabling it I did receive good advice that BUSYLOCK can disable a radio's ability to transmit in noisy or congested environments. I thought this risk acceptable risk since BUSYLOCK is easily disabled.

What I didn't anticipate was the effect of BUSYLOCK had on my participation in repeater based events.

The owner of my favorite repeater hosts a weekly event were participants start by checking-in. With a list of participates complete, he calls upon each to respond to the week's topic. It provides lighthearted discussion and opportunity to check out equipment.

After enabling BUSYLOCK I found my attempts to check-in resulted in the BUSYLOCK error tone, even when I was sure the previous participant was done and no one else was attempting to talk in that moment.

In my ignorance I did not consider the repeater's use of carrier delay (hang-in timer) on BUSYLOCK.

With the repeater's carrier delay longer than it takes for participants, including the host,  to realize the current speaker is done and there is an opportunity to talk I was effectively blocked.

Now slightly less ignorant, I have disabled BUSYLOCK on my radios unless I find some future special case use.

 

Does anyone have use for BUSYLOCK?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lscott]

45 minutes ago, WRNU354 said:

Does anyone have use for BUSYLOCK?

I've never used it on any of my radios. As mentioned previously on a repeater you can experience hearing the tone when the transmitting party's carrier drops, but the repeater's hang time keeps the repeater in transmit mode, thus blocking you when the BCL is active. Then you get another station jumps in and you still can't get on the repeater.

If someone times out the repeater, you'll know quick enough. They get cut off in mid transmission. The other parties will let the guy that got cut off know soon enough. Experienced repeater users, randomly between themselves, will occasionally let the repeater's carrier drop, thus resetting the timer. I have even heard a user specifically mention they will wait for the repeater's carrier to drop for that purpose. I rarely hear a repeater getting timed out.

On simplex, yeah one might use it. But if the simplex channel is busy the other stations likely will just switch to a currently unused channel anyway. Any interference would be temporary.

[amaff]

20 minutes ago, WRNU354 said:

Do anyone have use for BUSYLOCK?

Not usually, but I do when I'm in the race car and, even with molded earbuds, can't always hear whether or not my spotter's done transmitting. Other than that, no, no busy lock.

[WRNU354]

3 minutes ago, amaff said:

Not usually, but I do when I'm in the race car and, even with molded earbuds, can't always hear whether or not my spotter's done transmitting. Other than that, no, no busy lock.

Thanks! That is a special case, indeed.

To your point and more generalized, BUSYLOCK is useful with simplex comms in noisy environments?

[amaff]

10 minutes ago, WRNU354 said:

Thanks! That is a special case, indeed.

To your point and more generalized, BUSYLOCK is useful with simplex comms in noisy environments?

Yep, pretty much. Or if there's an environment with a lot of traffic and you may not notice you're stepping on someone who started transmitting just before you, I guess, but at that point, pick a different channel.

[WRNU354]

22 hours ago, Socalgmrs said:

No don’t use it. I just listen.  But what you’re experiencing on a repeater is squelch tail.  No one should be talking before the tail drops. If you start talking before the tail drops your lumped in with the previous station on the talk out timer.  Usually 2-3 min.  If everyone just waits for the tail to drop it shouldnt be an issue.   I also leave it off because if I need to break in for an emergency or priority I can.   

Thanks! Good point on not waiting for the squelch tail drop and its effect. That's something I didn't consider. 

My favorite repeater's squelch tail seems to be about 2 seconds and the talk out timer is about a minute.

Considering your points, the weekly repeater event check-in probably incentivizes people to break with the good practices.

I'll listen to see if they fall back into good practice of letting the squelch tail drop after that.

Thanks again.

[TrikeRadio]

2 hours ago, WRNU354 said:

Does anyone have use for BUSYLOCK?

Never have used it. Reading about the intent of it, I understand the idea.. but this seems like a "feature" that no one really every asked for, and I am not surprised that it does not work well.

[WRNU354]

41 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I've never used it on any of my radios. As mentioned previously on a repeater you can experience hearing the tone when the transmitting party's carrier drops, but the repeater's hang time keeps the repeater in transmit mode, thus blocking you when the BCL is active. Then you get another station jumps in and you still can't get on the repeater.

If someone times out the repeater, you'll know quick enough. They get cut off in mid transmission. The other parties will let the guy that got cut off know soon enough. Experienced repeater users, randomly between themselves, will occasionally let the repeater's carrier drop, thus resetting the timer. I have even heard a user specifically mention they will wait for the repeater's carrier to drop for that purpose. I rarely hear a repeater getting timed out.

On simplex, yeah one might use it. But if the simplex channel is busy the other stations likely will just switch to a currently unused channel anyway. Any interference would be temporary.

Based on your input and input so far there is little use, outside of very special cases, for BCL and, in fact, can impede comms on repeaters.

Also based on input so far, good practice is to manage the talk out timer by letting the repeater's squelch tail to drop.

Lastly, if the channel is noisy or congested select a channel less so and switch to it.

Thanks!

 

[WRNU354]

2 minutes ago, TrikeRadio said:

Never have used it. Reading about the intent of it, I understand the idea.. but this seems like a "feature" that no one really every asked for, and I am not surprised that it does not work well.

I'm thinking the radio manual should describe Busy Channel Lock Out as:

Busy Channel Lockout - You may think this feature might be useful, but except for a few special cases, you will be wrong.

[amaff]

7 minutes ago, WRNU354 said:

I'm thinking the radio manual should describe Busy Channel Lock Out as:

My cheap radios have like 50 menu options. You could say that about most of them.

[WRXL702]

7 hours ago, Socalgmrs said:

No don’t use it. I just listen.  But what you’re experiencing on a repeater is squelch tail.  No one should be talking before the tail drops. If you start talking before the tail drops your lumped in with the previous station on the talk out timer.  Usually 2-3 min.  If everyone just waits for the tail to drop it shouldnt be an issue.   I also leave it off because if I need to break in for an emergency or priority I can.   

 

[WRXL702]

Wrong, Wrong & Wrong.....

This Is Not A Squelch Tail, It Is The Repeater Hang Time Where The Transmitter Remains Open, But The Receiver Is Closed Waiting For The Correct CTCSS Or DCS To Reopen The Receiver For Retransmit. It Is Normally Set To 2 to 3 Seconds, Not Minutes.

The Intent Purpose Of A Repeater Hang Time, Is To Enable Users To Reactivate The Repeater With The Correct "Tones" So As Not To Have A Repeater Drop Out Completely & Restart The Transmit Cycle.

Squelch Tail Is Something Completely Different, & The Repeater Hang Time Is In Place To Help Continue Convos & Should Be Used For It's Intended Purpose To Save On A Complete Restart Of A Repeater..........

[WRTC928]

That's good to know. TBH, I haven't had any use for it up until now because I haven't been in a situation where the frequency was so busy there would be any use for it. Should it come up, I may use it on simplex, but I now know not to use it on a repeater.

[Jaay]

9 hours ago, WRNU354 said:

My enabling Busy Channel Lock (BUSYLOCK) on my radios seemed like a simple courtesy to reduce the chance of accidentally stepping on others.

Before enabling it I did receive good advice that BUSYLOCK can disable a radio's ability to transmit in noisy or congested environments. I thought this risk acceptable risk since BUSYLOCK is easily disabled.

What I didn't anticipate was the effect of BUSYLOCK had on my participation in repeater based events.

The owner of my favorite repeater hosts a weekly event were participants start by checking-in. With a list of participates complete, he calls upon each to respond to the week's topic. It provides lighthearted discussion and opportunity to check out equipment.

After enabling BUSYLOCK I found my attempts to check-in resulted in the BUSYLOCK error tone, even when I was sure the previous participant was done and no one else was attempting to talk in that moment.

In my ignorance I did not consider the repeater's use of carrier delay (hang-in timer) on BUSYLOCK.

With the repeater's carrier delay longer than it takes for participants, including the host,  to realize the current speaker is done and there is an opportunity to talk I was effectively blocked.

Now slightly less ignorant, I have disabled BUSYLOCK on my radios unless I find some future special case use.

 

Does anyone have use for BUSYLOCK?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MANY repeaters have a hang time of .5 to 1 second delay, and BCLO as some radios label it, can be more of a pain than a help.

[Jaay]

1 hour ago, WRXL702 said:

Wrong, Wrong & Wrong.....

This Is Not A Squelch Tail, It Is The Repeater Hang Time Where The Transmitter Remains Open, But The Receiver Is Closed Waiting For The Correct CTCSS Or DCS To Reopen The Receiver For Retransmit. It Is Normally Set To 2 to 3 Seconds, Not Minutes.

The Intent Purpose Of A Repeater Hang Time, Is To Enable Users To Reactivate The Repeater With The Correct "Tones" So As Not To Have A Repeater Drop Out Completely & Restart The Transmit Cycle.

Squelch Tail Is Something Completely Different, & The Repeater Hang Time Is In Place To Help Continue Convos & Should Be Used For It's Intended Purpose To Save On A Complete Restart Of A Repeater..........

Well said.

[HHD1]

2 hours ago, WRXL702 said:

Squelch Tail Is Something Completely Different

What is squelch tail?

[WSEZ864]

One major reason a repeater hangs for a short time is "picket fencing". When a mobile unit is traveling and experiences a short dropout, the repeater doesn't immediately abandon the signal and stays engaged. This both provides unbroken coverage benefit for the mobile and provides a bit of a safety delay so the repeater doesn't get hammered with rapid on/off cycling.

@HHD1: The expression "squelch tail" describes the "dead air" hang time after an incoming signal drops and has released the repeater. This delay is often followed by a sound signal ("beep") as the repeater ceases transmission.

[Socalgmrs]

No don’t use it. I just listen.  But what you’re experiencing on a repeater is squelch tail.  No one should be talking before the tail drops. If you start talking before the tail drops your lumped in with the previous station on the talk out timer.  Usually 2-3 min.  If everyone just waits for the tail to drop it shouldnt be an issue.   I also leave it off because if I need to break in for an emergency or priority I can.