Lscott

I general VHF works better under the conditions you describe. The radio service that works on VHF is MURS. It is a license free radio service. The limitation you will find are the radios are restricted to no more than 2 watts of power. http://www.firestik.com/Tech_Docs/murs.htm https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/multi-use-radio-service-murs Some typical MURS radios. https://baofengtech.com/product/murs-v1/ https://bettersaferadio.com/shop/two-way-radios/tera-tr-505-dual-band-gmrs-murs-handheld/ A note about the FRS radios. If they are more than a few years old they were likely manufactured to work under the old rules which limits the power to 1/2 watt. The newer radios are allowed up to 2 watts on (most) of channels. Under GMRS rules you can generally run higher power, which may not be that great of an advantage at the higher frequencies used. The following link shows the channels, bandwidth and power allowed by either FRS or GMRS radios. GMRS by the way requires a license while FRS does not. New FRS radio do not have the means to access the additional frequencies for repeater access per the FCC rules. Only GMRS radios are allowed to use those frequencies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service If you have GMRS repeaters in the area you can access where you plan to operate then GMRS would be a better choice in that case.

Well first there are no "Ham Radios" that are also certified for GMRS in spit of what you may read on various web sites. There are many Part 90 commercial radios, and some even include Part 95 certification, that are designed and tested for outdoors operation so are weather proof, rain - dust etc. Many of those radios can be programmed to operate over part or the full Ham 70cm band. I have the following models from Kenwood. There are others from Motorola along with other major manufactures. TK-370G https://fccid.io/ALH29473110 https://mra-raycom.com/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/Specifications/portables/TK-270G-370G-Product-Brochure.pdf TK-3170 https://fccid.io/ALH34713110 http://www.swscomm.com/kenwood/TK-2170_3170.pdf TK-3140 https://fccid.io/ALH32263110 https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf Be careful of the model type. Look at the specifications because the UHF radios come in several frequency ranges. For GMRS you want to cover at least the 460 MHz to 470 MHz range. A few models will cover 400 MHz to 470 MHz which is perfect for Ham and GMRS. I have successfully programmed the above models down to about 440 MHz which covers the repeater and most of the simplex section of the Ham 70cm band per the ARRL published band plans. The software will put up a warning window about the out of band frequency but will accept it anyway when you click OK. https://www.icomamerica.com/en/amateur/amateurtools/US-Amateur-Band-Plan-10-2017.pdf

If you want a radio you can depend on in an emergency I would not recommend any of the cheap Chinese radios. The really cheap ones have no real resistance to drops, rain, dust etc. I dropped a cheap BTECH tri-band radio on a cement floor. The speaker died. Yeah it’s ok for a glove box radio or cheap scanner on the desk but it won’t hold up to hard use. I have a collection of Kenwood, commercial grade, hand held radios I purchased used. Some had busted cases from being dropped, dirt packed into the speaker grill from being used extensively outdoors etc. when I got them. The radios still worked after cleaning them up and replacing the busted case parts. They were designed and tested for that kind of usage. You get what you pay for.

The Kenwood HT's I have definitely are Part 95 certified, under the old rules, and retains the certification under the new rules. I don't know about all of their models, but one would have to look up the FCC ID to be sure about the Part 95 certification. TK-370G https://fccid.io/ALH29473110 TK-3170 https://fccid.io/ALH34713110 TK-3140 https://fccid.io/ALH32263110

I think in general that by itself is a worthwhile question. If a radio was purchased and was “certified” at the time but later the FCC pulled the certification is that radio still legal to use? I would say any radios sold after the certification was pulled are not legal. However how would a user of a purchased radio would know if the certification was pulled after their purchase and as a user are they under any legal obligation to periodically check?

True. Any radio that will work in the above situation will likely be a commercial radio. Try looking for a Kenwood TK-370G-1, 128 channels, TK-3170, 128 channels or a TK-3140, 250 channels. These are 1 to 4 watt switchable hand held radios, and can be programmed to do wide or narrow band FM on a per channel basis. All of these are Part 95 certified. The radio I normally use is the 370G-1. https://mra-raycom.com/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/Specifications/portables/TK-270G-370G-Product-Brochure.pdf https://5.imimg.com/data5/MT/AL/MY-2136226/tk-3170-handheld-portable-walkie-talkie.pdf https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK2140_3140.pdf While the official lower frequency limit is 450MHz for the models that cover the GMRS frequencies but I have programmed them down close to 440MHz in the Ham band. The software pops up a warning window every time you try to enter the out of band frequencies but will accept it when you click OK. The radios will work a few percent outside of the official range. Most of the Ham simplex channels and repeaters are located between 440 MHz and 450 MHz per the ARRL band plans anyway. The main point with these kind of radios is there are I means to front panel program them and nothing like a VFO on a Ham only type radio. What I did on mine is program a sequence of channels with frequencies like 446.000, 446.025, 446.050 etc. The channel names were 446-000, 446-025, 446-050 etc. This gives a fair simulation of a VFO with a 25KHz step size which is pretty standard on 70cm. I think most Hams have their radios programmed for repeater access with a few simplex channels used by a local groups. I’ve recommended the aboveKenwood radios because that’s what I have. There are other very good radios from Motorola and others that members can recommend too.

This is the closest one to me. https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=26&ID=390

Or simply get your Ham license and put up a DMR or D-Star digital repeater. These system are typically linked world wide. https://www.raqi.ca/~ve2rae/dmr/Amateur_Radio_Guide_to_DMR.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-STAR Some analog Ham repeaters also support Echolink or IRLP for example. http://www.echolink.org/ http://www.irlp.net/

Most antennas allow some adjustment. That's usually done by loosening a set screw that holds the whip element in place. What I've done is set the whip down as far as it will go then check the match. If it's too high, and you need to know if the match gets better as you move up in frequency towards the desired mid-band point, or you move down in frequency. If it looks like the whip is too long, the match improves as you move down in frequency to the mid band point, the whip is too long. Try cutting off about a 1/16 inch off the bottom of the whip then repeat the measurement. At the frequencies use by GMRS you have to be careful to only cut off very small lengths of the whip. If the whip is too short just loosen the set screw and move the whip up a small amount. Then recheck the match. On gain type antennas they are normally pre-tuned by the manufacture. Other than the small adjustment in whip height allowed by the set screw it's recommended not to cut the whip. There are several sections on the gain antennas separated by phasing coils. Cutting the whip will likely make things worse since each section would need adjustment. The best and cheapest antenna is a plain old 1/4 wave whip, about 6 inches long. It has the widest band width. I build several out of heavy bus wire and a PCB BNC connector, a 1/4 wave antenna with 4 ground plane elements, as an experiment. I got a 2:1 max SWR over an approximate 430 MHz to 470 MHz range with the min around 450 MHz. The antenna is usable for both the Ham 70cm band and GMRS. For GMRS I would look for the min SWR at 465.144 MHz, which is half way between the lowest simplex frequency and the highest repeater input frequency.

I scored a rather rare Kenwood NX-340U-K2 radio version. It does both analog/NXDN and covers the frequency range of 400 MHz to 470 MHz, perfect for the Ham 70cm band. https://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/nx240_340_K.pdf I'm looking for a tutorial on programming this radio, or NXDN in general. I already have all of the operator and service manuals for the radio. In addition I have the technical doc's from the NXDN standards forum too. I registered for a NXDN ID at the same place I have my DMR ID. Just need to figure out what exactly all of the NXDN specific settings do. The help file for the software, KPG-169D V3.03, is rather brief. The license key I have for the software allows me to do both wide and narrow band FM on the analog channels.

From experience the best way to tune your antenna is when it is installed in its final location. Near by metal objects, height above ground etc. tend to affect the antenna. It might not be that convenient but you’ll know the match won’t change because you move the antenna location.

I think the reason why you won’t find any has to do with the fact that GMRS is a licensed service while MURS is not. The FCC several years ago changed the part 95 rules to clean up a very similar mess with the combo FRS/GMRS radios sold at the time. Those radios, before the rule changes, included the 14 FRS, license free, channels along with additional channels that were specifically reserved for GMRS, a licensed service. The radios had a warning about the necessity to get a GMRS license to use the GMRS channels. Just about everybody who purchased those radios ignored the license requirements and used all the channels. Having the license free MURS channels available along with GMRS channels on the same radio with the ability to use either one with a simple channel selector change just repeats the mess. I very seriously doubt the FCC is going to allow that to happen again.

I would recommend you download the service manual for the radio and read through the manufacturers specifications. https://www.qrzcq.com/pub/RADIO_MANUALS/YAESU/YAESU--FT-60-Service-Manual.pdf The first thing that pops up is the frequency stability is only 5PPM. I believe on the GMRS frequencies it needs to be 2.5PPM. The second thing is the narrow band performance. The better radios, typically the commercial radios, have two filters in the receiver section, one narrow band and the other wide band. They are switched in depending on the band width programed. The cheap Chinese radios, and most of the Ham gear from the major manufacturers, save money by using the wide band filter for both. The only thing that gets switch is the max deviation setting and audio gain, increased for narrow band. That means trying to operate with closely spaced stations isn’t going to work so well. While the radio will “work” the poor frequency stability may cause issues with adjacent narrow band channels. All radios will drift in frequency with temperature. The better ones use temperature stabilized reference oscillators to minimize this. The receiver filter issue may result in interference from an adjacent narrow band station’s transmitter.

That's a nice tool when you need to know what your "line of sight" path looks like.

Well thanks for the compliments, but the same goes for many others who post on the forums too. There is a lot of experience and technical know how by many others here as you will find out in time. All the commercial radios I posted about have removable antennas. They use the exact same reverse SMA antenna connectors on many of the Chinese radios. The same two-pin stereo type microphone-speaker connections for these radios are also the same as the cheap Chinese radios, AKA" CCR's" here, so the programming cables and many of the accessories will work on both. It's very beneficial to have an antenna you can remove. That leaves the owner the option to use a much better antenna on the radio, or use a vehicle mounted one, some even use the radio indoors as a base station with a roof mounted antenna. The so-called "rubber duck" antennas the radios normally come with are just barely adequate for short range communications. Many people buy a better aftermarket antenna. You'll find a lot of recommends on the forums for various models. I'm guessing why this is the case is when the Chinese decided to get into the two way radio market they needed a "standard" for the interface and antenna connection, so they just copied what Kenwood did.

This is a cut and paste from another post I made. You can find these radios for sale on several auction sites. All the ones I got have been from eBay sellers. You can expect to pay anywhere from $50 to $150 or so depending on the model, radio's condition and accessories included. All pf the radios below are FCC certified for GMRS. Some people like to try and use Chirp for radio programming. While free it may not support all of the features offered by the radio. In some cases its just plain buggy. That's why its far better to use the manufactures software where possible for the commercial radios at least. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the older used commercial radios are FCC Type 95A certified, which was under the old rules. Those radios continue to retain their type certification under the new rules and are legal to use on GMRS. If you shop carefully and wait you can get some good deals. The programming cables are cheap, and the software, don't use Chirp, are easy to find on line usually for a free download with install key. Personally I have used the following Kenwood hand held models: TK-370G-1 TK-3170 TK-3140 (waiting on slow USPS mail for this one to arrive) The commercial radios have a major advantage over the cheap sub $100 Chinese radios, the receiver sections are far better. As most people tend to discover when in a range fringe area the antenna and the receiver sensitivity and selectivity makes all the difference. https://www.ameradio...ood_TK-370G.pdf https://pdfs.kenwood...170Brochure.pdf https://www.radiocom...40_brochure.pdf Beware the radios come in several different "band splits" denoted by a model type or suffix number. Look at the brochures in the above links and scroll down to the last page. It's usually list under "General" in the detailed specifications. I don't have a commercial mobile radios so I can't really speak about those.

Well this should be good news when the fee is officially lowered. I have a friend that is part of an off road Jeep group and they want to switch to either Ham or GMRS just for their own group. I understand that the national group has moved to GMRS, so this should be welcomed news to them. https://jeepjamboreeusa.com/cb-replaced-by-frs-gmrs-two-way-radios/

Some of the older used commercial radios are FCC Type 95A certified, which was under the old rules. Those radios continue to retain their type certification under the new rules and are legal to use on GMRS. If you shop carefully and wait you can get some good deals. The programming cables are cheap, and the software, don't use Chirp, are easy to find on line usually for a free download with install key. Personally I have used the following Kenwood hand held models: TK-370G-1 TK-3170 TK-3140 (waiting on slow USPS mail for this one to arrive) The commercial radios have a major advantage over the cheap sub $100 Chinese radios, the receiver sections are far better. As most people tend to discover when in a range fringe area the antenna and the receiver sensitivity and selectivity makes all the difference. https://www.ameradio.com/doc/Kenwood_TK-370G.pdf https://pdfs.kenwoodproducts.com/9/TK-2170&3170Brochure.pdf https://www.radiocommunicationsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/kenwoodtk3140_brochure.pdf Beware the radios come in several different "band splits" denoted by a model type or suffix number. Look at the brochures in the above links and scroll down to the last page. It's usually list under "General" in the detailed specifications. I don't have a commercial mobile radios so I can't really speak about those.

While this doesn’t have exactly what you’re looking for it is another source of repeater listings. https://www.repeaterbook.com/gmrs/index.php?state_id=none

Merry Christmas.

You’re free to do as you like, same as everyone else here. I just wanted to make a few comments and ask some questions. If you continue with the project perhaps you can give us an update on how it’s working out. I’ve learn over the course of many years there is aways some more to learn, and it doesn’t matter how much “paper” you have hanging on the wall.

Yes tower space is not easy to come by so having access is definitely a positive there. Given the finite resource of only 8 repeater channels how do you propose to to choose who get up there? Having multiple machines on the same frequency, assuming you have a high demand, but using different access codes might be a bit tough. Around the Detroit area where I'm at we have very few machines on GMRS. The one I use is an old fire department repeater on top of a building at 200 feet. Coverage is around a 20 mile radius. There also isn't that much GMRS activity anyway, maybe due to the lack of repeaters. Most of what you hear are FRS radios. Now talk about Ham repeaters, they're like weeds, everywhere, and most see little use. The best one for coverage is this one. http://www.gmarc.org/wp/ I can get into this guy with a 4 watt HT in my family room from 15 miles out. Now that would be a place to stick a GMRS repeater. The repeater my one buddy wants to put up is on the Ham 70cm band. I told him it may not see much use and suggested a GMRS one, nope, wants the Ham band. The sight he has access to, free emergency power - internet - no rent, is on the roof of a two story school. Now this might sound very limited however the location is just about 1000 feet ASL while most everything else around there and out is about 650 feet ASL. The coverage map somebody ran for him, based on the topography, shows good coverage out to 20 to 30 miles except to the north east, likely due to the higher elevation there.

I have a buddy that is in the process of setting up a Kenwood UHF repeater. I also have another buddy who is a professional radio tech for a city transportation department. That guy has to work on everything from the bench to climbing towers etc. yeah so I do some idea. He by the way embarrassed some of the “professional” IT people who couldn’t figure out how to fix the problems with the crappy and overly costly VOIP system using radio links. He told them what the problems were going to be, got ignored, and later proved to be right on the nose. Again do you really need to tie up 4 out of only 8 repeater channels, 2 for you private use? And yes I know about linked systems. There is one I monitored around the Chicago I’ll - Gary IN area during a business trip out that way. https://mwgmrs.com/ While linked systems such as the above exist the primary focus of GMRS is for personal use and local communications. These linked system are starting to look more like a “Ham Lite” type service. If one really wanted cross country comm’s, get a Ham license and take advantage of the well built out D-Star and DMR networks. In fact these networks extend worldwide.

IMHO I would have to question somebody who wants to tie up four out of a total of 8 repeater channels in an area. GMRS is primarily for personal communications, not a business or a public service. This reminds me of crap that happens on the Ham bands. Somebody get a coordinated frequency pair, sometimes several, then sits on them just because they can, or the equipment is long dead and gone but the "owner" won't give it up. Comments about NXDN, well digital voices modes, including for now DMR, D-Star, P25 etc., are not allowed on GMRS. We're stuck with plain old analog FM and the limitations that goes with it.

You might want to have a look at these antennas too. They don’t require a ground plane so you can stick them just about anywhere, even on a plastic roof top. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0345/4055/2323/files/bb4302n-whip-antenna-datasheet.pdf?v=1595960075 You want the model(s) that cover 450 to 470 MHz. I would recommend get the one wit a spring in the base for the higher gain models.