marcspaz

The FCC has a ruling specifically exempting amateur radio. It's been 20 years since I read the most recent ruling, but the FCC published a docket in 2005/2006 time frame say something along the lines of 'amateur radio operators who volunteer to provide essential communications and warning links to supplement State and local government assets during emergencies, currently is sponsored by the Federal Emergency Management Agency'. Due to Amateur Radio Services being used by the government for auxiliary communications services, they had been deemed exempt. Some people have debated if amateur repeater linking is a violation of 47 CFR § 97.113(a)(5), but there are zero examples of anyone actually being fine for it. Likely because of the aforementioned docket, which eventually lead to permanent changes in the rules in 2010, specifically 47 CFR § 97.219 and 47 CFR § 97.3.

This weekend I sat down and talked to an engineer who has been working with the FCC to shape rules for GMRS since before it was called GMRS. I got some pretty eye-opening information from him on the whole POTS v Broadband thing. He explained that linking a GMRS system to the POTS lines (no longer exists) and Broadband connections are legal (not a rule violation) for remote control... but not for voice traffic, because all POTS providers and now Broadband providers provide voice service for a fee. So, sending voice over POTS / Broadband is considered theft of services. That explains why remote operation of a PRS station from any location on the same premises where the transmitter is located, is not considered to be remote operation/remote control and why RF (non-network) linking for voice operation is not prohibited. No theft of services is occurring.

I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for attending the get-together today! Also, thanks to all of our admins and repeater owners for coming out, and our friend Tim for helping coordinate! I had a great time seeing old friends and making new ones!

The short answer is no, though @OffRoaderX is making a push for 19. He is probably the most influential and well-known person in the GMRS space. If any one person has a shot at impacting the culture, it would be him. You are going to hear a lot of people mention channel 20 with tone 141.3... but that is a little misleading. I'll try to make this painless, but this is the long answer. The original 'distress' frequency was 462.675, aka channel 20. This was by FCC rule... but that doesn't exist anymore. After the rule change got rid of the official distress frequency/channel, Popular Wireless and the Personal Radio Association came up with the idea of the Open Repeater Initiative (ORI). It was originally repeater channel 20 with 141.3 for the tone. They called 141.3 the "travel tone" They spread the word that if you have a repeater on channel 20 and are willing to let people use it with no special permission, as a courtesy to travelers, use the tone 141.3. As time went on, people started using the "travel tone" on their repeaters, regardless of what channel the repeater was on, for the same reason. So, 141.3 became know as the "travel tone" for repeaters, in general. However, with the fall of Popular Wireless and the Personal Radio Association, the adaptation of 141.3 on any repeater channel for open repeaters, and no central group helping maintain the tradition of a travel/emergency channel, the ORI vanished pretty quickly. So, there is still an informally recognized "travel tone" for repeaters, but there really isn't any "travel channel" per se. I feel like you have just about the same likelihood of finding people to chat with or making contact in an emergency on every channel by trying all of the repeater channels with 141.3 as the transmit tone (no receive tone squelch). I wouldn't use simplex unless I was traveling as part of a group and we all agree to use a specific channel. Hope that wasn't too long.

Phrased they way you did, it likely wouldn't. However, in the reddit post, several people implied (or maybe I inferred) that the club/group/whatever has every repeater pair used on their network, making it almost impossible for anyone else to standup their own repeater anywhere in North Georgia due to capture effect on the mobiles in the area. Im sure the capture effect causes problems on simplex and same channel repeater inputs, too. Of course, I am summarizing an interpretation of what I read and sharing an opinion based on that interpretation, assuming it's true.

I would love to tell them that linking over a network is a rule violation, not a law violation, and linking repeaters via analog non-routed RF is assumed to not be a rule violation (legal), since its not explicitly denied in the rules. Now, linking repeaters across the northern part of the state and monopolizing every channel is a @$$h0l3 move... which should be the real topic.

That's awesome to hear! Once all the brackets are made and the cosmetics are done, I have to get some fresh images out!

Bummer... hopefully the next one will work out. I am trying to do them at least once a quarter... sometimes more.

It is perfectly legal to us GMRS radio in aircraft over the US and it's territories. I have talked to a friend of mine while in a private plane. I was mobile in Woodbridge Virginia and they were flying as far away as 47 miles from my location.

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing you!

Hey everyone! I know it's a little last minute, but NOVA GMRS is having a get-together this Sunday for lunch. We are going to try to beat the heat of day and meet from Noon to 3:00 PM. We are going to meet at Virginia Gateway Center, in the lot between Target and Five Guys. For those who haven't been to this location before, you can navigate to 13299 Gateway Center Dr. There is a picture below, showing where specifically, we park. Bring a chair, drinks, etc. to be comfortable. The plan is to talk radio (or whatever) and then sneak into Five Guys about 1:00 PM for a quick bit and enjoy some company. If you have never been to a get-together or if you are new to GMRS, I highly encourage you to join us and ask lots of questions. As always, this is a family friendly event. So, bring your family and friends! RSVP below or check us out on FaceBook! https://fb.me/e/5m4JpSoAs

ISM radios are not designed for voice, nor emergency operations. They are normally used for OT device control and monitoring. Usually the power is low, the ranges isn't very far per watt, and in general are typically programmed for some specific industry business. What are you trying to accomplish?

Not at all. I figured we are just having a conversation and sharing information. I don’t want to speak for the OP, but I think he is just trying to demonstrate how bad information is out in the world and how confusing it can be trying to figure it out for many people. I took it as that is really the topic. I could be wrong, though.

The funny part is, I'm a bit of a dork when it comes to this stuff, so I have read it all to see how it impacts my Amateur license use and my GMRS license use. There is nothing in our agreements or treaties with Canada or Mexico that encompasses GMRS frequencies. That said, I agree with the general sentiment. People shouldn't have to be a legal scholar (or try to think like one) and willing to spend several hours or even days trying to research this stuff, just to talk to their family or friends on a $10 radio they bought at Walmart or on Amazon. The whole concept is asinine. The two nations should just coordinate their frequency use and keep it simple for their citizens.

I'm not sure where you (AI) pulled this, but it's all old, not part of the current FCC rules and have not been valid since 2017. The current rules are here... https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E

Quick side note.... FCC Rule § 1.928 "Frequency coordination, Canada" does still list 450MHz to 470MHz as restricted. However, there is no indication that § 1.928 applies to GMRS.

Okay... really quick... the short answer is those people on the net are incorrect. You can use all of the GMRS channels anywhere in the US. Details without getting too dorky... what used to limit us was a combination of FCC rules and a US/Canada treaty. The treaty is called "Agreement Between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of Canada Concerning the Coordination and Use of Radio Frequencies Above Thirty Megacycles per Second, with Annexes" also known as the "Above 30 MHz Agreement". A new agreement that was signed in 2021 supersedes that agreement. The new document is called "General coordination agreement between Canada and the United States of America on the use of the radio frequency spectrum by terrestrial radiocommunication stations and earth stations." This document discontinued the parts first treaty I mentioned, that impacted GMRS. Now, that only relates to the Treaty / Agreement. Under FCC rules, the restriction was also lifted. The older rule was under "§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification" (e). However, § 95.1761(e) now has new text that is completely unrelated. Also, Line A is not referenced anywhere in the Personal Radio Service general rules, nor in the GMRS specific rules. The original text from the FCC (from the wayback machine), again no longer valid, is noted below. § 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification (e) GMRS transmitters intended for use north of Line A or east of Line C* must not be capable of transmitting on channels 462.650 MHz or 462.700 MHz (GMRS Channels 19 and 21), unless such operation is specifically authorized by the Commission pursuant to an application showing that harmful interference to Canadian stations is unlikely.*

I've been messaging with Eddie for the last couple of days on this site. I had no idea a repeater was being planned. A buddy of mine called me up and let me know about it. I haven't really used it yet, but it sounds pretty good. At 1.5 miles away, you could work it with 1/4 watt. LOL

Hey, Peter! Great questions. BTW... if you hear us chatting, you are always welcome to join in! I appreciate the interest. We talked about it a little at our last get-together, but just touched on it. So, I'm happy to give more details. I am a volunteer radio operator with the Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES). I serve on a few teams supporting DHS/FEMA, US Marine Corps Quantico (MCCS/MCM), Loudoun County, Prince William County and the Virginia state EOC in Richmond. ARES is a nation-wide group attached to the American Radio Radio League. Our organization has formal MOUs with local, state and federal agencies across the nation. Our team provides a full spectrum of auxiliary (and on occasion, primary) communications support for the aforementioned agencies. That would include, but not limited to, voice traffic, independent email services, wireless LAN/WAN both in an affected area and relayed outside the impact zone, video, GPS and signal tracking, and much, much more. We have had great success in drills and real-world service for more decades than I have been alive, and I am happy to be apart of the organization. These relationships have afforded our teams some special privileges in the radio world. Hospitals, government agencies, and private business all appreciate the services we provide to the community, and to help us provide the best possible services, these agencies/businesses have allowed our groups to install VHF and UHF repeaters on there buildings, commercial radio towers, and on high-elevation properties. We even have repeaters and towers installed in national parks for areas known to frequently need our support. I mention all of this because it is relevant to what is happening with the proposed GMRS repeater. The Prince William County government is allowing us to install a new amateur radio VHF and UHF repeater on a county radio tower. The intent is to have the amateur radio equipment available to all licensed amateurs, while ensuring priority use for ARES supporting the county, state and federal government. Since we are going to have both a VHF and a UHF antenna, we figured we would gang a GMRS repeater on the UHF antenna, having it support both systems. I proposed the use of the GMRS repeater to the county under the same assumptions as the amateur radio repeaters... they will be open to all licensed users, with the county and other served agencies traffic taking priority during drills and emergencies, and the county EC agreed. Keep in mind, we are in the early stages of planning. We need to design the system, acquire hardware, and coordinate frequency use. What we are planning is subject to change... but the proposed details are as fallows. The availability date is currently TBD. As mentioned, we are still gathering parts and the facility is currently in the end stages of renovations. We cannot build until construction is complete. The tower is in the south-eastern part of Prince William County. The base of the tower is about 155 feet above average terrain. The arm the antennas will be on is about 300 feet above ground. We are going to use high-gain folded dipole antennas for all repeaters. We are planning on legal limit for the power output on GMRS (and 100w for the amateur repeaters). The channel is TBD, pending coordination. This will be a publicly accessible repeater, open to all licensed operators. Again, if the repeater is needed for emergency use, we will terminate public access until the emergency need is over. We hope that amateur gear will be sufficient so local families/residents can use the GMRS repeater in a local communications outage. We have not settled on a tone yet, but it will be CTCSS. We will ask local users to use whatever the primary tone we select for day-to-day use, but we will also have 141.3 for emergency/traveler use. The coverage area is theoretical at this point, but below is a projected coverage map showing 99.9% reliability. As we drop down to 70% reliability, the coverage increases dramatically.

I few years ago I tested my Yaesu FT3D and my BF-F8HP with an SA. On frequency, there were no side spurs on the BTech, but there was a pretty decent size spur on the bottom of the signal on the Yaesu. However, there were zero harmonic spurs on the FT3D compare to something like 15 spurs plus/minus the carrier frequency of the BF-F8HP. And several of the close harmonic spurs were at power levels close to the same as the intended carrier frequency. Like, within 5 or 6 dB.

I must be missing something.. I run 300w WB-C4FM on FRS 10 all the time, so when my wife is in the kitchen and I'm in the garage, she can hear my signal okay. Are we not supposed to do that?

Rugged Radio got a NoNo letter from the FCC for selling 6 different radios that RR advertised as being compliant and were not. Even with such gross disregard and massive exposure, they still did not get a fine. I don't know how bad you have mess up before the FCC gives a damn about GMRS violations, but the bar is obviously very high.

I'm reading this thread, thinking the same thing.... while wearing this shirt...

This is just my opinion and by no means intended to be legal advice, but I have to agree with Randy and others with the same type of response. It seems that unless someone is committing some wild infraction, they aren't getting FCC attention. There are way too few enforcement agents and way too many people with radios for anything else. I used to think it mattered, but time and inaction have unequivocally proven otherwise. I have an XTL5000 that has the ability to run wideband digital encryption on UHF at 115 watts. From a technology standpoint, it exceeds every single minimum requirement established for type approval. If I where to program it to transmit 20w of output, only able to access the upper channels for high power simplex and repeater operation, narrow-band analog voice only, adhere to all of the other configuration requirements (including not transmitting on non-GMRS frequencies) and the FCC enforcement team knew I did it... I highly doubt anyone is going to care. Shoot... unless I were to get on the internet and start bragging about it, there isn't even any way for anyone to know. Signal interception sure isn't going the tell anyone anything. The bottom line is, I would never advocate or condone intentionally violating the rules... but damn dude... the FCC has way more important things to worry about then if you are using an iCom, Kenwood, Motorola, Yaesu, Harris, Baeofeng, TIDRadio, or any other radio. Ensure you don't cause harmful interference by using a quality radio and not acting like a Richard Cranium and im pretty confident if you roll the dice, you won't go to prison or get a $14,000 fine.

@SteveShannon you don't think I read the whole thread, do you? LOL