n1das
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Posts posted by n1das
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On 10/12/2021 at 10:23 PM, n1das said:
Found this interesting item in today's FCC Daily Digest:
Released: 2021-10-12. WIRELESS TELECOMMUNICATIONS BUREAU SEEKS COMMENT ON REQUEST BY MIDLAND RADIO CORPORATION FOR WAIVER OF CERTAIN GENERAL MOBILE RADIO SERVICE RULES. (DA No. 21-1269). (Dkt No 21-388). Comments Due: 2021-11-12. Reply Comments Due: 2021-11-26. WTB. Contact: Thomas Derenge at (202) 418-2451, email: Thomas.Derenge@fcc.gov. DA-21-1269A1.docx DA-21-1269A1.pdf DA-21-1269A1.txt
File your public comments folks!
Comments Due: 2021-11-12
Reply Comments Due: 2021-11-26
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Found this interesting item in today's FCC Daily Digest:
Released: 2021-10-12. WIRELESS TELECOMMUNICATIONS BUREAU SEEKS COMMENT ON REQUEST BY MIDLAND RADIO CORPORATION FOR WAIVER OF CERTAIN GENERAL MOBILE RADIO SERVICE RULES. (DA No. 21-1269). (Dkt No 21-388). Comments Due: 2021-11-12. Reply Comments Due: 2021-11-26. WTB. Contact: Thomas Derenge at (202) 418-2451, email: Thomas.Derenge@fcc.gov. DA-21-1269A1.docx DA-21-1269A1.pdf DA-21-1269A1.txt
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On 9/16/2021 at 9:42 PM, wqpn591 said:
I've built a repeater using dual KG1000G units and a Sinclair duplexer.
It seems to work just fine except that most of the time (not every time) the Tx continues 15-20sec after the end of PTT transmission.
My testing is with Wouxun kg905g HT units.
Occasionally the squelch tail is just a second or two. More reasonable.
Anyone have a tip or reason on how to shorten the squelch tail?
Is the "squelch tail" you are referring to the hang time of the repeater transmitter or the receiver staying unsquelched for an extended period of time after a signal into the receiver went away? These are 2 different things.
Hang time refers to how long the repeater's transmitter remains keyed after the receiver's squelch closes to mute the audio. I like repeater hang times in the range of 2 to 4 seconds in length.
Squelch tail technically refers to how long the receiver's squelch remains open after a received signal goes away. This is the short burst of white noise heard when a signal input to the receiver goes away before the squelch closes to mute the audio. With plain old carrier squelch (CSQ), this time is typically a few 10s of milliseconds and up to about 50ms. Time constants longer than about 50ms start to be annoying because of the longer "crash" sound heard due to the squelch staying open longer. With a CTCSS/DCS decoder, the time constant is much longer and is spec'd at 350ms. Motorola repeaters running CTCSS or DCS typically run the CSQ wide open and only the CSCSS/DCS decoder mutes the audio from the receiver. This works best for handling mobile flutter and signal fading but can create an annoyingly long squelch tail because of the 350ms time constant. Commercial radios typically transmit a "reverse burst" designed to eliminate the squelch "crash" sound aka squelch tail at the end of a transmission. The reverse burst means "Close squelch NOW!" before the transmitter un-keys. Radios talking through the repeater that don't generate a reverse burst at the end of their transmission leave a long squelch tail aka crash sound heard at the end of a transmission.
Are you using CTCSS/DCS on the repeater's receiver? Are you also using CSQ or leaving it wide open like what Motorola does? These two functions typically are AND'd together in a repeater application. This requires CSQ to be open AND decoding a valid CTCSS tone or valid DCS code to unsquelch the receiver and key PTT on the repeater.
CTCSS/DCS access and CSQ can also be set to "OR" the two functions together to unsquelch the receiver in some radios and repeaters. Check to make sure the two functions are AND'd together instead of OR'd together. An easy test you can do is transmit into the repeater without a CTCSS tone or DCS code or with a different tone or code that the repeater requires and see if this keys up the repeater. If you can key the repeater by just opening CSQ on the receiver, this may be the problem.
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This application appeared today on fccid.io: AZ489FT7146
Motorola is adding to their 900MHz FHSS digital on-site business radios with the Curve Series. It is a DLR style radio with 2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi added to it. I don't understand the "Curve" name to it. Should be interesting. It doesn't appear to have any Bluetooth capability but that might come in a future model. The 900MHz FHSS digital system is compatible with the DTR and DLR series radios. -
On 4/8/2021 at 8:38 AM, WRAK968 said:
I'm guessing this is an unauthorized re-transmission of the sheriffs radio comms. I see they use 155mHz by you.
I see they are on 155MHz. It is unlikely they are on 155mHz since 155mHz is 0.155Hz.
155.880MHz * 3 = 467.640MHz --> close enough to 467.6375MHz = FRS channel 11.
Any chance the 155.880 transmitter site is VERY close to the OP's location?
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Another CCR. *SIGHE*
No thanks.
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ADOPTED: 2021-08-03 by MO&OR. Found this item in today's FCC Daily Digest.
REVIEW OF THE COMMISSION'S PART 95 PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES RULES, MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER ON RECONSIDERATION. Grants three petitions for reconsideration of the 2017 Report and Order that reorganized and updated the Part 95 Personal Radio Services rules. (Dkt No 10-119 RM-10762 RM-10844). Action by: the Commission. Adopted: 2021-08-03 by MO&OR. (FCC No. 21-90). WTB. FCC-21-90A1.docx FCC-21-90A1.pdf FCC-21-90A1.txt
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I have been GMRS licensed since December 1992. My GMRS callsign (KAE9013) resembles an old CB callsign as it predates the FCC Universal Licensing System (ULS). It also predates the creation of FRS in 1996 and the invasion of the bubble packs which followed.
In 1993, my first GMRS radios was a pair of Motorola GP300 handhelds. They were expensive at the time but they were the clear quality leader.
Since then I've owned and used the following on GMRS:
- Kenwood TK-370
- Kenwood TK-370G
- Kenwood TK-3140
- Kenwood TK-3170
- Icom IC-F4GT
- Icom IC-F40GT
- Motorola HT-1250
- Kenwood TK-5310 (still have)
- Kenwood NX-300
- Hytera PD782G
- Hytera PD362
- Hytera X1p (still have)
- Hytera PD982 (still have)
My newest is a Motorola XPR7550e as I'm moving away from Hytera and going full Moto for everything in the future. No more Kenwood or Icom either. No cheap Chinese radios (CCRs) since you get the bottom of the barrel cr@p that you pay for. I'm p!$$ed at Hytera and done with Hytera since the Motorola v. Hytera lawsuit settlement. I'm also liking Motorola's stuff better anyway. Only top tier Motorola radios going forward.
- DeoVindice and WRCE984
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On 6/11/2021 at 4:04 PM, n1das said:
Just turn the roger beep off and be done with it. That's the first thing I always do with an FRS radio.
A radio whether it's an FRS bubble pack or a top tier commercial radio sounds way more professional without a roger beep.
On 6/12/2021 at 12:09 AM, SkylinesSuck said:But who is trying to be "professional" on GMRS? Courteous and a good neighbor, yes. Anything beyond that and complying with the rules is just pretending to be something you're not.
On 6/16/2021 at 10:24 PM, JLeikhim said:Roger Beeps are annoying...
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
I don't care what other people do but absolutely no roger beeps on my radios. The absolute last thing I would want with my professional quality commercial radios is for them to sound like FRS bubble packs.
I have played around with MDC1200 signaling in Motorola radios and Fleetsync signaling in Kenwood radios. I haven't used DTMF signaling because it's too d@mn slow. I put the PTT ID at the start of a transmission, not at the end. It can be programmed as Pre or Post, or Both. I like Pre instead of Post because it forces users to wait half a second for the Talk Permit Tone before speaking to allow receiving radios to wake up from battery save mode and allow for CTCSS and/or DCS to decode so the beginning of transmission aren't missed. I've played around with MDC1200 and Fleetsync signaling but eventually turn them off because they are annoying. Peace and quiet at the beginning and end of transmissions is a lot nicer.
- SteveC7010 and gortex2
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I think you mean Zello, not Zillo.
I browsed Zillow a lot when I was in the market for a house a few years back.
(redirects to zillow.com)
I can't help with the network stuff as I'm not in your area but Welcome Aboard to GMRS!
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4 hours ago, WRNA236 said:
I've read that the T800 has X-Pand but the fella who started the RadioReference thread says it seems less offensive. I wonder too about the T400, which was what I was considering as hand-out radios since high power on them is 1.7 watts according to the FCC test data in their grant. The T600 and T800 are listed as 0.75 watts in the FCC grant.
LOL, that's me. I am the one who started that thread on RR. I have a couple of T800 Talkabouts and the X-Pand in them appears to be a little less aggressive compared to the older Talkabouts. Motorola probably has tweaked the amount of compression and expansion over the years to make it work better. The older Talkabouts were manufactured for Motorola by Giant International in China. The deal with Giant International ended several years ago and the newer T-series Talkabouts are genuine Motorola manufactured in Malaysia. I noticed the build quality is much better in the newer T-series Talkabouts.
I thought Motorola may have tweaked the companding in them based on past (bad) experiences with the older TalkAbouts. My wife (g/f at the time) and I had a pair of Motorola Talkabout 250 FRS radios back in the early days of FRS (14 channels). This was around 1997-1998. The Talkabout 250 aggressively compressed the Tx audio and aggressively expanded the receive audio. When hearing audio from other radios that didn't compand their audio, the expander in the Talkabouts totally blew the audio apart to the point that basic functionality as a 2-way radio was seriously impaired. Even when both Talkabout 250 radios talked to each other and properly compressed the Tx audio and properly expanded the Rx audio, the audio was still BAD. It was square wave audio between the Talkabouts and hearing expanded audio from non-companded radios was even worse. It. Was. THAT. Bad. It is no wonder that Motorola's X-Pand audio companding system is so seriously hated.
The Talkabout FRS radios and Motorola's business radios aka business bubble packs as I like to call them could be cleaned up and made a lot better if Motorola would add the option to disable X-Pand. Using X-Pand requires ALL radios talking to each other to be using X-Pand in order for all radios to sound right. Use X-Pand when all radios are using X-Pand and disable X-Pand when one or more radios in a group don't have X-Pand. If a radio has an audio companding feature, the radio needs to have the ability to enable or disable the feature. Unfortunately X-Pand is always enabled in the Talkabouts and in Motorola's analog business radios and there is no option to disable X-Pand.
I expected the T600 H2O radios to have X-Pand like the other Talkabouts and was pleasantly surprised to find it is one of a few Talkabout models that don't have X-Pand. The only newer T-series Talkabouts I have experience with to date are the T800, T600, and T460/465.
T460/465: Has X-Pand
T800: Has X-Pand
T600 H2O: NO X-Pand
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https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/t600-rechargeable-two-way-radios-dual-pack/product/T6B22201GWRAAW
I keep a few FRS radios around for occasional light casual use, especially when my young nephews come for a visit. Even though I have higher end commercial radios for GMRS and ham use, I keep a few FRS radios around to have as disposable radios and for my nephews to play with.
One thing about the Motorola Talkabout FRS radios and Motorola's analog business radios is they use companding on narrowband channels. It is an audio enhancement feature to try to improve the audio S/N ratio. Motorola claims it helps the audio sound "clearer" compared to other radios. Motorola calls their companding system "X-Pand" and implemented it across their product lines. With Motorola's top tier radios, the compander can be enabled or disabled per channel. On the Motorola Talkbabout FRS radios and business radios or business bubble packs as I like to call them, the compander is always enabled and there is no option to disable it. Motorola went all in with companding on narrowband channels in their low end radios.
Motorola's X-Pand companding system generally works as advertised but it requires ALL radios talking to each other to be companding their audio for all radios to sound right. It's an all or nothing type deal. Problems arise when some radios talking to each other don't compand their audio. The expander in the Talkabout's receiver expands audio that wasn't compressed originally and blows it apart, resulting in muffled and distorted audio. The Talkabout's receive audio overall sounds like 'expletive' when this happens. It sounds like somebody stuffed a sock in the speaker. This is what Motorola's crappy and much hated X-Pand audio companding system tends to sound like more often than not. Motorola could really clean up the audio on the Talkabouts and business radios if they provided an option to disable the compander. Use the compander if ALL radios talking to each other are companding their audio, otherwise don't use the compander at all.
I found a couple of Motorola Talkabouts don't have the companding feature like the others have. The Tx/Rx audio is a world of difference better on these radios. One model is the T600 waterproof radio. I recently picked up a few of these and was pleasantly surprised to find this model DOES NOT compand the audio. Yay!! The Tx/Rx audio sounds pretty good compared to my commercial radios I use on ham and GMRS. The Talkabout model the T600 replaced (MS350R) also did not compand the audio.
https://shop.motorolasolutions.com/t600-rechargeable-two-way-radios-dual-pack/product/T6B22201GWRAAW
Just thought I would share what I found about the Talkabout T600 waterproof FRS radio.
:)
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On 7/6/2021 at 8:06 PM, Lscott said:
Never though about using LTR as a means for repeater access control while ignoring the multi-repeater bit. That would seriously screw with repeater jammers and unauthorized users.
I've thought of doing this but don't have any LTR capable radios. It would be set up as a single channel LTR system and with the pulse turned off. I have heard of exactly this being done to thwart repeater jammers and unauthorized users.
I've thwarted a well known jammer in the past by using DCS/DPL instead of CTCSS/PL. The jammer in this case had antiquated radios that only had CTCSS/PL capability and no DCS/DPL capability. He also didn't have a clue about DCS/DPL. I've heard him screaming on the air about being unable to get into my repeater. He was continually p!$$ed about not being able to get into the repeater after trying almost every CTCSS/PL tone. I've heard of DPL also being referred to as "Definitely Prevents Losers" LOL. This won't work today with most modern radios having DCS/DPL in addition to CTCSS/PL.
- gortex2, SkylinesSuck and jgillaspy
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I would leave them alone and enjoy what you hear. They could be using DLRs instead of DTRs because they are compatible with the DTRs. The local Costco Wholesale store near me uses DLR radios and I can hear them on my DTR650 and DTR700 radios when I'm in range.
The local business you are hearing is 100% legit with their radios. It's not your problem, so don't make it your problem. No need to spoil their fun and your ability to listen to them. They probably don't have a clue and are simply using the radios right out of the box at the factory default settings like FRS bubble packs. That's how the local Costco store near me seems to operate.
The DLRs will transmit very badly distorted audio if someone shouts into them or talks too close to the mic. You can tell when DLRs are being used by the badly distorted audio. The DTR600/700 models have better transmit audio due to automatic gain control (AGC) in the Tx audio path. The DLRs and legacy DTR410/550/650 models don't have AGC in the transmit audio. The DTR600/700 models have the best Tx audio, the DLRs have the worst audio, and the legacy DTR410/550/650 models are somewhere in between. I wish Motorola would update the firmware in the DLRs to add AGC to the transmit audio.
I have custom programming in my DTR fleet and have several private groups set up in them. I mostly use the private groups. I purposely keep the factory default programming in them as part of my custom programming to monitor for local activity in my travels and to be able to talk to defaulted DTRs and DLRs if needed.
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WB9VLW DE N1DAS,
Congrats! BKmetz of TDIclub? Anyhow congrats!
73,
N1DAS
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Just turn the roger beep off and be done with it. That's the first thing I always do with an FRS radio.
A radio whether it's an FRS bubble pack or a top tier commercial radio sounds way more professional without a roger beep.
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Check out the video in the link above.
I recommend changing out all of the PL-259 and SO-239 connectors and replacing them with N connectors. On the mobile radio, use an N female to PL-259 adapter screwed right onto the mobile radio's SO-239. This is the next best thing to changing the connector on the radio. Do the same thing at the antenna if the antenna has an SO-239. Then use N connectors for everything from the mobile radio all the way to the antenna. Impedance discontinuities (mismatches) caused by connectors contribute to SWR problems and must be avoided.
I will not use a PL-259 (plug) or SO-239 (socket) on anything operating above 30MHz. Not worth the trouble, including SWR problems.
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I have the super basic Midland LXT118 two-way radios. Bought them when FCC required license for the GMRS channels. The license was renewed couple of years ago and also there was a change by the FCC pushing my LXT118 radio into the "license free" gear category.
Since I do own the GMRS license and don't mind renewing it when it expires 8 years from now, I thought about upgrading my radios to use more than 2W which my license allows. Otherwise the license has no value and it just a $70 piece of paper. I did some research, few hours of reading and it looks like all the mainstream gear from Midland, Motorola, Cobra seem to have max 2W radios for which license is not required. Then there are the Wouxun KG-805G and BTech GMRS-V1 radios that are programmable and have tons of features but are a bit intimidating for a simple user like me.
So finally I got to my question: Are there any GMRS handhelds that have more powerful radios (>2W) but are somewhat basic (no programming, repeater, etc)? I would like to get a radio with a decent range and something I could grab from a charging base, set a channel and use. I do not see myself programming or messing around with a radio. Use would be for hiking, kayaking, skiing and camping with the kids so less buttons and features the better.
Check out the Retevis RB75 5W IP67 Waterproof long standby GMRS handheld. 4500mAh battery! The standby time is around 300 hours (12.5 days). The battery capacity is more than enough for plenty of talk time too.
https://www.retevis.com/RB75-Waterproof-Long-Standby-GMRS-Handheld-Two-way-Radios
Also check out the Retevis RB27:
https://www.retevis.com/RB27-30-Channel-GMRS-Long-Range-Two-way-Radios-with-NOAA#A9216AX1
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Your spot on about the system and the company. The HD1 is part 90 certified by the FCC, it's certification can be found here. My understanding is part 97 is Amateur/HAM radio, Part 90 is for commercial/business and Part 95 is for FRS/GMRS. If I understand that correctly, the HD1 can be used for commercial/business use. We use 467.7625 as well and DPL 065 is what I got off of radio reference and seems to work except for that delay in the first phone receiving my transmission. The DPL's listed on radio reference are 065 for 467.7625, 331 for 467.8500, 263 for 467.8375, 413 for 467.8750 and 466 for 467.9000. All the freqs listed are all that HD is licensed to use. I pick up that annoying "Attention Associates- New Order" and a few others. Just trying to get that delay worked out.
D065N and D331N are the DPLs I've found the most often. I'll take a look at the Part 90 cert. I'm skeptical of the Part 90 cert because the one area where it would violate Part 90 is programmability from the keyboard by the end user. Under Part 90, the radio can't be anything more than a channelized radio for the end user. I know some higher end commercial radios have FPP (front panel programmability) but they also include a way in the programming to disable FPP for the end user. The HD1 would be required to have the capability to disable programming from the keyboard in order to be Part 90 compliant. I own an HD1 and so far I have only programmed it from the keyboard. The CPS may have a Part 90 mode for it.
I've noticed the deviation in narrow bandwidth mode is a little on the low side compared to other radios I have in narrow mode. The deviation in wide bandwidth mode is OK. As for receive performance, the carrier squelch level in wide bandwidth mode is so tight even when set at the threshold that it's practically unusable. Received signals have to be near DFQ to unsquelch the receiver in wide mode. Narrow mode works good and reliably unsquelches on weak signals. The HD1 is a CCR (Cheap Chinese Radio) and works OK for ham use and unfortunately that's about where it ends. I already knew that when I got the HD1. The HD1 is one of my throwaway radios.
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The small radios are from Advanced Wireless Communications and is either their AWR Advantage or AWR Advantage Plus model. Funny, this delay does not happen when using the Advanced Wireless radios. The smart device is the Zebra Industries TC77. As for the app used, I would have to look and see if it shows it.
This system sounds exactly like what (The) Home Depot uses. The portables I've seen at (The) Home Depot in my area are from Advanced Wireless and have a bridge from the conventional analog portables to the smart devices. There is nothing unique about the Advanced Wireless portables. They are conventional UHF portables. They are low end UHF business band portables. They are really low end, like the Motorola CLS series UHF analog portables.
(The) Home Depot near me uses 467.7625MHz D331N. "(Musical bleeps) Attention associates! New order!"
The OP should know that the HD1 is a ham radio portable and is not FCC certified for Part 90 use. The HD1 is not legal for transmitting outside the ham bands in the USA, even if Part 90 licensed and the boss says it's OK.
The OP should check that the radio is exactly on the correct frequency. DPL is sensitive to frequency errors in the transmitter and receiver. A signal received a couple of kHz off-frequency will cause DPL decoding problems because this introduces a DC offset in the FM discriminator output in the receiver. The decoder sees a step function instead of the DPL data for a few seconds and causes slow decoding or failure to decode.
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I have been involved with GMRS for almost 30 years and have never seen such an abrupt increase in business radio use of the 462 MHz primary channels until the last two years. It has accelerated over the past year to the point where many of us can no longer communicate with more distant repeaters from my base station between 6 AM and about 8 PM, M-F due to co-channel radio traffic. Weekends are increasingly becoming a problem as well.
I too have noticed an uptick of business use over the past couple of years since the rewrite of the Part 95 rules in 2017. I'm not complaining since business use of FRS is 100% legal. We have to coexist as best we can. Going with the flow of Part 90 by narrowbanding my commercial gear on GMRS solved all of my adjacent channel splatter problems.
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I have also seen an increase in adjacent-channel interference from the 12.5 kHz interstitial channels on the base station, primarily because a large number of these commercial users have FRS radios improperly programmed for wideband (25 kHz) operation.
I am located in the suburbs east of San Francisco/Oakland, with 2200' mountains between me and the busy bay region. I can only imagine what the bayside users are experiencing.
Anyone else seeing this problem?
FRS is narrowband only (11k2f3e). Commercial users can't be using FRS radios if they can be programmed for wideband (16k0f3e or 20k0f3e) operation. Just sayin'.
I have experienced adjacent channel splatter from the 12.5kHz interstitials on the GMRS primary channels. It's happened when I'm listening to a GMRS primary channel (wideband) and kids in my neighborhood are playing around with FRS bubble packs on an FRS channel 12.5kHz away from the GMRS primary channel I'm listening to. I was experiencing adjacent channel splatter even though the FRS users were operating narrow band with legal FRS radios.
I have also had one of my GMRS repeaters which was operating wideband at the time get hit by FRS traffic on the 467MHz FRS channels adjacent to the repeater input. The FRS users were local to the repeater and on a 467MHz FRS channel 12.5kHz away from the repeater input. The CTCSS tone they were using happened to match one of the CTCSS tones in the repeater. The repeater would get keyed up and scraps of badly distorted audio would be heard through the repeater. I've witnessed the same thing happening to GMRS repeaters in other areas of the country in my travels and have even heard GMRS users on the repeater yelling at the FRS users to stop and of course the FRS users won't hear them LOL.
Since I'm using good quality Part 90 commercial gear, I went with the flow of Part 90 narrowbanding and switched all of my commercial radios and the repeater to narrow (11k2f3e) mode on all GMRS channels. Narrowing the transmit deviation and tightening up the receiver solved all of my adjacent channel splatter from the interstitials and also solved it in the repeater. All of my adjacent channel splatter problems went away completely as soon as I made the switch to narrow mode on all GMRS channels.
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Motorola CB300-D DLR based retail call box:
I haven't seen any of these yet in my travels.
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Cane Wireless DB-1020/1060 DLR based desktop 2-way radio / wireless intercom:
A little pricey for what it is but would work for businesses wanting the convenience of a desktop radio with a larger speaker than a DLR radio.
:)
DTR600 and local business question
in 900 MHz License-Free Radios (ISM)
Posted
Yes, and get more than one of them so you can use them with family and friends. You will be amazed at how well they work.