WRKC935

Well, it's provoked. Just maybe not here. If you happen to log into eham and look in the EMCOMM section, you can see a multipage show about how StarLink is now going to replace ARES and hammie EMCOMM. And me trying my level best to explain that the ONLY thing that will bring about the end of EMCOMM in ham radio is the narrow minded ham operators that feel that EMCOMM can ONLY take place on the ham bands, with some sort of voice communications. If a microphone isn't involved, and it's not in the assigned frequency spectrum of the ham radio allocation then it's 'not real EMCOMM'. And they just keep coming out of the woodwork furthering the narrow minded thought processes. But they refuse to see StarLink as a possible tool in their EMCOMM toolbox for data transfer and instead poo poo on the idea of it completely. Bringing up that ham radio is ad-hoc and redundant and in their minds will still save the world from the evil Motorola radio systems. Mind you.... and I can't believe I am saying this. I agree with Randy on a good bit of his view on ham radio and the SAD HAMS thing. Keep in mind that on November 6th, I renewed my license for the 3rd time.. I have been licensed since 94, making it over 30 years a ham. But I keep getting reminded. Just the other day, I actually heard a couple guys using the repeater. So I piped up and attempted to join in. I finally got recognized, and even after being recognized and spoken to, the two original members of the conversation would continually short key. When I said something about it, the guys reaction was, "yeah, I tend to do that most of the time". fully admitting that he steps on everyone else and just doesn't care. I took the high road and left the 100 watt radio in low power and tried to maintain a turn, but they just weren't having that. I choose to take the high road and maintain two ham repeaters. Keep tossing my call out on the local repeaters to see if there is anyone to talk to. And maintain a presence. Which is more than most it seems.

Not watching the video.... this seems to be turning into some Hammie ARES EMCOMM thing that would infer that if she had a yellow vest and a Baofeng radio that she would have been fine because "Ham Radio saves Lives" Which is a true statement ..... because laughter is the best medicine.

While there has been a significant increase in GMRS license holders and repeaters in recent years. Not every corner of the US has a GMRS repeater. There is always a possibility that you are having issues with what you are doing with the search, it might be that there are simply no repeaters in your area. If you are willing to give a basic location of where you are, one of use can take a look and see if there are any repeaters that you just aren't seeing or if you don't have any coverage in that area.

Yeah, and I am the guy that has some of those 12K radios. And I can say that wide band FM is wide band FM. Same thing coming from a 38 dollar Baofeng and a 12K buck Motorola. Same thing with wattage, if 4 watts is measured at the output of one radio, and there is 4 watts measured from another radio, that's the same power. The 12K buck radio may continue to work in a high RF noise environment when the lesser radio gives up and looses the ability to lock onto the signal of interest, but that's the difference. The 38 dollar may start mixing those other signals that are getting into the transmit circuits and begin to have issues on the air with a clean signal, but again, 12K gets you a LOT of shielding that's not going to be in the 38 dollar radio. But outside of that, FM is FM. If the 38 dollar works at all, it's going to work the same if it has the same power output and deviation (modulation) as the 12K Motorola. And the ham / GMRS operator that has that 12K Motorola will NEVER be able to give you a reasonable and honest answer on why they 'need' that radio. Because no one will ever admit that it's purely vanity that gets them to drop the silly amount of money required to get such a radio. There is no special function that makes those radios superior to even the cheapest radios in 99% of the operations they are expected to perform, which is talking on the local repeater. I have Boafengs too. I can't take them downtown on rooftops and expect them to work. The RF noise in those locations drive the radios nuts. My high dollar Motorola works in those situations just fine. But if I am out in the country at home, no one can tell if I am talking on the Baofeng or the Motorola. While they don't sound exactly the same because that 12K gets you a bunch of audio processing, dual mikes, noise canceling and other stuff that 38 bucks isn't going to buy, you have to decide if 12K is too steep a price to pay so you can talk on the local repeater while you're on the lawn mower with all the engine noise being canceled out or not. To address the FCC type acceptance thing mentioned by others. If you don't understand the type acceptance procedure, that is done by the manufacture, not the FCC. Well you might read up on that before stating claims about it. Manufactures do their own testing. And may or may not be required to submit equipment for testing to the FCC for additional testing. And even when there is a requirement for sending in radios, it's up to the manufacture to ensure that the radios going out the door for sale are the SAME design and function as the radios that were submitted for testing. Some manufactures do verify that every unit is equally good as it leaves the factory. And some manufactures make 'wonder knives' like the 'as seen on TV' ones that saw bricks in half then slice a tomato. Can a knife be made to do that. But when was the last time you were at a state fair watching the guy saw a copper pipe in half and then cut bread actually sell the knife HE'S using, not the ones on display. Or randomly take one of the ones for sale for 19.99 and do those things with it, and then attempt to sell THAT knife. Because NOTHING about the knife the seller is using is the same as the ones you will go home with other than looks. Now, would China based companies do such a thing? Well they put lead in toys, ship Fentanyl to us, send helium balloons into our country to spy on use, and a full list of other things that would fill a page here but then verify that every last radio coming out of their factories is the same as the one they sent for testing that cost 10 times to make? I am not going to hedge my bets on that. But you are more than welcome to.

First off, don't let SAD HAMS drive you from that service. They can be told to go kick rocks just like anyone else. Having that license doesn't make them special, even if they are convinced it does. Ham radio can be an enjoyable hobby and pastime and a few clowns shouldn't turn you off from that endeavor. I just renewed for the third time four days ago. So 30 years of being a ham. Yes, I have told people to kick rocks that were hams. Told it to a GMRS operator or two as well. The fixed antenna could be a couple things. One not mentioned is does the radio have the full complement of FRS channels in it? FRS is a low power service that is tighly regulated and the equipment has certain stipulations as well. One of which is the interstitial channels are .5 watts and the radio can't have a removable antenna. That is to keep the talk distance to a minimum. So that's worth looking into as well.

Many here have stated what GMRS was actually setup to do. Provide extended family and small group communications beyond what the FRS service could. It was a medium power service that allowed fixed stations (base setups with elevated antennas) and repeaters for the extension. That is what is was originally for. And the rules and regulations pretty much bear that out. But that's not what it has turned into. I will preface this with the fact that 3 days ago I renewed my ham license for the 3rd time. That is a 10 year license, so I have been involved with ham radio since 1994, so 30 years at this point. And ham radio wasn't ever really to be a social gathering place. It was for the furtherment of communications through experimentation and to build a pool of qualified electronics technicians that could provide support for technology in the future. Of course, ham radio isn't that any more either. But, GMRS is now a conduit for social interaction. This was once done with CB radio. A great many people had radios and they communicated throughout their community with other individuals in a social manner. AKA they would get on the radio and BS back and forth. It wasn't for building RF techs, radio nerds, or specifically for emergency communications. But ANY radio service can be used for EMCOMM. It's just going to be limited by the regulations and equipment available for that service. But GMRS is now a gathering place for folks to chat with each other via voice communications. My guess is that COVID may have sparked renewed interest in having a reliable conduit for communications that didn't require face to face interactions and was always readily available. I wasn't personally involved with GMRS during COVID. But I have since done testing and continue to test coverage and gather radios for deployment for family so that the path of communications can't be easily severed. My repeater site will soon have alternative 'off grid' power in addition to the current grid, battery and generator power that is in place and functioning. Single 'car' batteries with a single 100 watt solar cell and charge controller will maintain power and limited light for family members during a disaster situation so we can check in with each other and maintain some sense of normal during an abnormal situation. But again, that's not what it was really for. It just lends itself to that function. But in the end, it still is a conduit for social interaction. And that is a good thing.

When the radio's you have in your vehicle cost more than the car did. When you put a second mortgage on your house (rental property) to buy a 240 foot tower site. When you are spending 200 plus dollars a month on running your own tower site. (taxes and electric) When people drive by your house and know that you own the tower site down the street because of the antenna and microwave dish array you have on your roof. When you still enjoy operating radios socially (HAM and GMRS) after 15 years of working on radios professionally. When you have decided that you would rather do radio work after having a job offer that was 40K more than what you are currently making.

Yeah, if your not getting it by -101 then somethings not right with the receiver, at least if it's of good quality.

Accurate coverage mapping requires a number of different pieces of information to run the calculations against to generate a map. Some of those are power from the transmitter, duplexer loss, antenna cable loss, antenna gain, antenna height at the center of the radiation pattern, antenna pattern and down tilt. What is calculated is path loss based on the transmit and receive frequencies, losses due to vegetation, buildings and ground cover. This is selected in the coverage mapping software during the configuration and data input. You will also need to supply the subscriber antenna gain, transmit power and antenna height so that the talk in can be calculated. A base radio will work farther than an mobile with the same power output because of antenna height, a mobile will work better than a portable due to antenna gain and power output from the portable being typically 10dB less than the mobile. Again, there is software out there to run the numbers. But without the REAL numbers, it's garbage in and garbage out.

Yes, that's true. No one should expect white glove rescue service from the government entities. Now this isn't a prepper site. I am not going to go into physical security, food storage, bug out planning or any of that. But we do discuss communications and radio here. So that piece of a bigger plan is appropriate for this site. And the hammie thought process isn't one that needs adopted here either. Here's the issue with calling for help. You have to give your location to direct the assistance to you. Now if you are unprepared, and in a life or death situation, you really don't have a choice. Outside of that, discussion of locations, travel plans, specific meeting locations and the like are NEVER to be discussed over the air. If you wouldn't tell your neighbor, or fellow radio operator friend that you have 10 grand in your safe (if you did) because of trust issues, then you don't give out that sort of information over the air for ANYONE else to hear. All this is referred to as operational security. The OPSEC term you see from time to time. And if you are going to communicate with others in a situation where the government isn't there to help,you need to have previously established a communications plan for all involved parties and stick to that plan. First part of the plan is scheduling. And contrary to what might seem reasonable of same time every day, that's NOT the way to go about it. Your communications need to switch times in a seemingly random way. This can be based on the day of the week, but shouldn't repeat for at least a month. Meaning if Monday comms are at 10 and 6 then the next day needs to be 8 and 7. The following day should be 10:30 and 5, and you can continue to repeat a pattern that while you and the other parties know what it is, someone monitoring will not easily see what's happening. And then can't track your signal by waiting for the specific time you are going to be talking. Changing frequencies, is also a possibility depending on what you have at hand for communications. And remember, this is a SHTF situation, so the rules are sort of malleable. But keep in mind a couple things. First is only using as much power as needed to communicate with the other party. Less signal is less distance, meaning that fewer people with ill intent can hear you. Names, landmarks and such need to not be directly named. Other 'coded' references to those things need to be established prior to a situation that requires OPSEC and then used for the duration of the situation. There is a LOT to all of this and I am not going to go that deep into it but this should be enough to start getting a plan for communications established and built on from there.

My plans are different than many, but it's what's available to me directly so it's the path I will take. If it gets to the point that the commie's are invading, or whatever, I will be operating P25 with AES encryption. I have plenty of equipment for doing that on VHF and UHF and 900Mhz and the repeaters are programmed for mixed mode, so if they hear P25 modulation with the correct NAC, they switch modes, and power levels going from 50 or less watts to 110 watts. So my PERSONAL communications will be covered. Past that, if the repeaters get really busy, I will begin bringing other pairs on line and doing announcements to more people off to the additional repeaters. Johnstown600 is still in the rack with the breaker pulled. That one goes back up first. It was my linked repeater that I took down since I didn't have the loading I felt mandated the pairs being tied up for. But at that point, I will also be taking donations of diesel fuel to keep the generator running. I have considered requesting the donation of fuel right now to fill the storage tank (275 gallon) but we keep the belly tank (100 gallon) at 1/2 to 3/4 at all times. The one thing about a diesel genset is the ease of getting fuel to it. The fact it's older means it can run on a number of different fuels from heating oil to some jet fuels. And since the current diesel is basically kerosene, it's typically available too. I have larger propane / natural gas units, but getting fuel to them would be a bit more difficult.

As a repeater owner I am noticing a trend that is concerning. I get a good number of repeater access requests that are marked for 'family emergency communications' in the request. I get A LOT of these. Now many of these folks never key the repeater past once or twice to see if they can hit it and verify they are in the coverage area. Then they are never heard from again. But if I have 100 individual license holders that are all considering my repeater as their primary means of communications in a disaster, there's going to be a serious problem. If all those are individual licenses, and not going to communicate with each other, then that's 200 users on one repeater all expecting to able to communicate within their licensed group individually. Meaning the possibility of 100 different conversations that might want to happen at more or less the same time. That's not going to work. The repeater is gonna be on the air for at least a week or two after a failure of the power grid. The generator will run for several days and then the batteries will take over for several more. Not saying that the tower can't fall, but it's not the standard guyed tower that many repeaters are on. It's 50 feet wide at the base with 4 legs and is very sturdy. To the point that the ones that were extended in height had broadcast quality tower sections that were 4 foot faced mounted on TOP of the existing towers to extend them and part of those installs are 60 foot free standing (not guyed) towers mounted to the top of the tower type I have the repeater on. So yes, a direct hit from a tornado may bring the tower down. But a better possibility is the antenna's being ripped from the structure. Outside that, it will be on the air. But it's still ONE repeater, with the possibility of a HUGE number of people wanting to use it at the same time all trying to get in there and use it at once. Now I realize that GMRS requires ZERO understanding of radio to get a license. The service is marketed and meant to fill the need for people that just want radios for whatever communications they require without any additional knowledge or understanding of the underlying technology. Appliance Operators would be a correct description. And that's fine. It's here for that very reason and is the expectation. But if there are a large number of people expecting to all use the same repeater, that never talk on it, you're going to be in for a rude awakening when the SHTF whatever occurs and you yank the radios out of the closet and fire them up and find the repeater you planned to use busy with other traffic.

Well, I could have handled that better. But I see what you were saying. The reason I brought it up was exactly what you said. Holding 3600 or ever 1800 RPM at a steady state with muscle power is not going to be possible. The requirements mechanically to pull it off (mechanical governors and the like) would add both complexity and additional mechanical load to the 'crank' input to maintain that RPM. The poles thing wasn't as important as the need for steady state rotational input for frequency / voltage stability. And as mentioned by others, using a DC generator or alternator with rectifier for DC output is a better option and if you feed that into a storage system (batteries or super capacitors) the energy can be generated and stored for later use in addition to being immediately available for use. I read the big windmills that generate AC power do use a massive CVT (constant velocity transmission) between the blade hub and the generator head. My question is how all that gets synced. You working in power generation probably understood that the generator needed phase synced with the grid before you could connect and start feeding power. Not sure how those pull that off.

Right... calling bullshit on that for SURE. I have a VHF repeater that belongs to NARA (Newark Ama.... ) and that thing has not less than 3 separate IDer's connected to it. They claim to run multiples because if one fails the others will keep them 'legal'. The one is set for every 9 minutes. I have a logging recorder that shows this, 24/7/365 it ID's every 9 minutes. Then there are, as you mentioned, TWO additional 'busy only' IDer's that run. One only announces when it's made busy, by time. But will react to any PTT of the system. The other announces when busy in 15 minute increments based on the actual time so, top and bottom of the hour and 1/4 past and 3/4 past. So, if you key it, it will immediately ID. Then you key it again the second IDer will ID. If it's in the quarter hour, the THIRD IDer goes active. I get on there from time to time... throw my call, wait on the first ID. Reply, WHAT YOU SAY??? Second IDer. COULD YOU REPEAT THAT??? Third IDer. THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT YOU SAID,,, or YOU JUST GONNA KEEP REPEATING YOURSELF, WHERE'S THE AI CHAT BOT TO KEEP ME COMPANY? And the NARA people then get on the air all pissed off at me. Of course I explain NO ONE wants to use the dumb thing because you can't have a conversation on it because the IDer's don't polite ID or fall back to quiet CW. They just changed the call sign on the repeater, and it's still like that..... with a new call. Hammies, at least the local ones what their repeater controller to tell time, weather, frequency, PL/DPL, current price of ass wipe. AND the repeater call sign. And it's annoying as hell.

Yeah, especially a PAID access repeater.

Yes, you are 100% predictable Randy. I will leave you to figure out how.

2 pole vs 4 pole on the little ones only have two 'magnets' or fields for the stator. That's how you get 3600 and 1800 RPM with the poles. My guess is, since I don't know on the stuff you were dealing with is if they were multiple parallel sets of 3 phase poles and magnetic fields clocked around the stator. The little ones of course don't really have much room and the field is the armature. It has two poles and is spun. With a much larger head, I could see it having them in parallel, but I have never messed with stuff the size you are talking about or ever really looked into it. The biggest stuff I have first hand experience with is the sub 350Kw stuff down to the pull start 5 HP things. Of course with what you are talking about those heads were smaller than the exciters on the generators you were dealing with. But yes, North pole, south pole and it creates opposing phases. I would assume that since you were generating 3 phase, that it's all paralleled internally to increase current. But in truth, it's all about rise and decay time of the voltage wave. Has to be 60 Hz when it's all done. Phasing is just the timing of the events. For single phase, the events' are 180 degree's out of phase. For 3 phase, it's 120 degree's from each of the other two phases. Still all adds up to 360 degrees. The timing, depending on a fixed RPM is all going to be decided by the clocking of the poles and the number of fields crossing the poles. To make "big power" you parallel the fields and poles to increase current. The voltage of course is controlled by the flux density of the field and the winding count in the stator windings. But I will agree that trying to make sense of whats' going on with a 5 HP portable generator when your experience is with monsters you worked with would be difficult to make sense of. Even looking at the 1 / 3 phase units that are between 10 and 100KW can be daunting. They are wired like a 12 wire electric motor, and the windings can be connected in different series / parallel configurations to produce anything from 120/240 single phase to 480 3 phase. I still don't fully understand how that works, only that if you have the connection diagram for the different ways to wire it, that it will indeed do it. Again, purely guessing, but I would figure you were generating at 13.2KV or something like that to keep the voltage to a minimum because the issues with the insulation on the windings not being able to take much more than that.

From the Generator source web site. Changing Engine Speed to Vary Output Frequency Present-day generators consist of an engine directly connected to an alternator to produce electricity. One of the most common ways of changing the output frequency of a generator is to change the rotation speed of the engine. The two factors are related as per the following formula – Generator Frequency (f) = Number of revolutions per minute of the engine (N) * Number of magnetic poles (P) / 120 Conversely, P = 120*f/N As per the above formula, a 2-pole generator producing an output frequency of 60 Hz has an engine speed of 3,600 rpm. To change the output frequency to 50 Hz for the same generator configuration, the engine speed needs to be reduced to 3,000 rpm. Similarly, for a 4-pole generator, an engine speed of 1,800 rpm produces output of 60 Hz. Reducing the engine speed to 1,500 rpm yields an output of 50 Hz. https://www.generatorsource.com/Generator_Frequency_Conversion.aspx It was a bold statement. But it was a 100% CORRECT bold statement. It comes up as soon as you Google it for God sake. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-e&q=Generator+poles+and+speed Click down on 2 pole speed, then 4 pole speed and it clearly states what I said. Yes, 3 phase generators have more poles. But most of them are 1800 RPM or lower in operation. Depends on the size of the generator head and the engine size. Big engines don't make 1800 RPM. The mammoth stuff is under 800 RPM. Mind you a train engine diesel motor maxes out at 1000 RPM. Talking about stuff bigger than that. Little pull start gas generators that are 110 only have two poles that are not tapped at the center. Half the winding is on one pole the other half is on the other. For a slightly larger 110/220 generator. Each pole creates 110 volts. There are 3 slip rings on those stators and the center is tapped and those poles are 180 degree's out of phase. So when one side is producing a positive going wave, the other one is producing the negative going wave. Since there is a center tap, each leg can be individually referenced to the center tap and produce 110 volts, and across both legs 220 volts is created since they are 180 degree's out of phase.

FROM DELCO REMY web site. Alternator Output All alternators are listed at maximum output. Since alternators are rotational devices, the output listed is at approximately 5,000 RPMs, shaft speed. The alternator pulley is much smaller than the crankshaft pulley, so it is turning much faster than the engine RPM (generally 3.5:1, up to 4:1 ratio). This means that the alternator is well into its maximum output when the vehicle is going 65 mph. https://www.delcoremy.com/the-latest/2018/january/how-to-select-the-right-alternator 2K RPM time 4= 8K RPM. You're right. It does help to know things. Which it seems I do, at least about this.

Something else to stick in here. Anything that is going to vary in input RPM will not work well for direct AC generation. Meaning AC (house current) generators have a pole count. Two pole generators need to spin at 3600 RPM to generate 60 Hertz power. Four pole generators need to spin at 1800 RPM to generate 60Hz power. Varying the RPM on an AC generator will vary the frequency output. You are far better off to create DC power and charge a battery bank and if AC power is needed, create that AC power with various sizes of inverters. The reason for the various sizes of inverters is the idle load of the inverter. A 5KW inverter will at idle draw as much power as a 100watt inverter at half load. So just having one big inverter is going to waste power as heat. I am kinda going away from portability here. I know the initial question was about 'hand crank' stuff. But if you look at what's available that is hand crank powered, it's LED lights and small broadcast radios. If you start reading the specifications for those items, you will find that 10 minutes of cranking will get you no much more in listening or operating time on the little AM radios. The LED lights are a bit better, but LED lights are very low loads. If there was a direct USB crank charger, consider the time it takes to charge a phone or a portable radio with USB charge. Even at fast charge, that is going to take an hour if the battery is depleted. So that's an hour of cranking. Having several solar charged USB power banks to set in the light would be a better option. They will free you up to do other things in a bad situation.

You are far better off to build something like a stationary bike with a generator / alternator on it than anything that's 'hand crank'. The amount of power generated vs the amount of physical energy expended on hand crank anything is not worth it, especially in a bad situation. It comes down to charge rate. If you can charge a battery with 10 amps for 30 minutes with a stationary bike, a hand crank anything is only going to be half that current or less. Requiring a longer period of time cranking. And you are using muscles that aren't as powerful. My opinion is you need to consider energy conservation. Personal energy conservation. And a stationary bike needs to really be a tool of last resort. Solar and wind are going to work without your physical effort. Yes, they are only semi portable, same as the bike. But it's a solution for a home base of operations for sure. My advice is a bike on a stand with a belt on the back rim connected to a generator. Get a bike with multiple gears to at least figure out to optimal ratio for generating power and not killing yourself doing it. Remember that alternators (from a car) will require some amount of voltage to get the field coil going. So a generator would be better but are harder to find. But any small amount of voltage is enough to start the field and get you rolling. Or you can modify the alternator with some magnets to jump start that process. People are doing that sort of thing all the time with DIY wind generators. Might be a good place to start looking at what's needed. And if you really want it to be hand crank. Mount the bike in a way that you can hand crank it and just modify the pedal for hand use. Or you might try a kids bike with a smaller rear wheel. Automotive alternators spin at 4 times the crank speed. So if the engine is turning 2000 RPM the alternator is going 8000 RPM. Bear that in mind with the design as well.

What Steve said tongue and cheek is actually right and why we are going to see a ham test for at LEAST the next 10 years even if the requirements are relaxed by the FCC. I am 53 and got licensed when I was 22. Not long after the creation of the "No Code Tech" license. We only had allocation for voice above 50Mhz so we couldn't do too much damage. But others will tell you we were lepers, the bane of ham radio. We were going to bring about the end of ham radio and the hobby would be gone. That was the Fud's opinion of it anyway. The ARRL isn't going to be able to allow a test-less ham license because the old guys that are now older and much more opinionated will raise 9 kinds of hell at them for even thinking about it. Nut that mentality will fade as those guys shuffle off their mortal coil and begin fertilizing the flowers at the local cemetery. But I will say this. The test ain't that hard. And there are some here that if you put 1/10 the effort into studying for the test that they do in winding people up in here and beating dead horses, you would have your license in no time.

Getting ready to do something very similar in my Suburban but both are going to be High Power radios. Have ham license and both radios have every ham repeater they are compatible with in the State of Ohio. Also have the simplex stuff and Some FM satellite stuff. I am debating how I am going to mount the control heads though. I might break down and build a console for the truck and put them in it, but I am also thinking about O3 hand held control heads. But I need to figure it out before it gets too cold and I put it off another year. But this looks good.

Oh,, I 100% agree, it's done gone and needs to be forgotten. The BS nonsense crap of 'CHANGE.ORG' is a TOTAL joke though. It's so pointless it's not funny any more. Yeah, I tossed out a word wall to address the ACTUAL issues with it. But the point of that was NOT to actually get the change to occur, but to MAYBE,,,,, just MAYBE get people to SHUT UP about this damn topic and move on. I too am tired of hearing about it. And whats more I have actually posted IN DETAIL now, what it would take to get it done. Do you think anyone will read it, learn from it and actually do it. F NO... they are gonna continue to get in here and continue to post BS about it and how the FCC sucks and the rules still don't ban it and all the other drivel they seem to come up with about it. Personally I think the moderators need to just start banning people if they create topics pertaining to linking until there is a rule change and they post about that. But I don't have a say in it. Now, specific to YOUR comments. Yes, it's allowed in Amateur Radio. But this is NOT that service. You trying to draw comparisons to the two different services is dumb. Part 90 commercial allows for it as well. But I don't see anyone comparing those two services. Far as the 'coordination' of frequencies. So me what regulation in Part 97 where is specifies the FCC has ANYTHING to do with coordination of ham frequencies at all. The FCC took pieces of the RF spectrum and handed it to the hammies and said 'here you go, deal with it'. Yes, there are coordination bodies for ham repeaters. They have ZERO actual authority outside of what we have in GMRS. That being the ability of filing a complaint with the FCC pertaining to interference. Which ANYONE has. That's all they have, same as here. They can't DEMAND anything of a repeater owner that's not in the FCC regulations just like on here. They can imply they do, and saber rattle all the want. The FCC is the only ENFORCEMENT body for anything RF related. The ARRL, frequency coordinators, and other SAD HAM's have ZERO power to cite you, pull your license or even issue a legal warning with any teeth to it at all. And how anyone thinks any different only tells me they have NO CLUE about what the F they are talking about. So again, saber rattling and narcissistic ramblings that amount to NOTHING. And anyone that KNOWS how it really works can tell them to get off their lawn. Then you bring up my very favorite BS topic for GMRS. D M R. Can't happen and more over be careful for what you wish for. Because it could. And this would truly be a mess for the reason I posted above as it would pertain to radio ID management. Do you think anyone will read it, learn from it and actually do it. F NO... they are gonna continue to get in here and continue to post BS about it and how the FCC sucks and the rules still don't ban it and all the other drivel they seem to come up with about it. NO one will take on the responsibility of creating a database and issuing radio ID's for DMR on GMRS. So every clown that ever heard the Rush album will want 2112 for their ID. Or their birthday, or their GF's chest measurement until she moves on and they will then want a DIFFERENT ID. How many ID's do you issue to a single person? With ham you get ONE. Ham License is exclusive personal use, so you get ONE ID per call sign. FCC has GMRS as a family licensed service, so one license can have multiple radios and users requiring multiple ID's for said radios. Who's managing that? The ham's don't manage the ID system for ham radio. A company that is in the business of selling and supporting DMR on ham radio runs the database. And what do you gain with DMR on GMRS? the repeaters can't be linked, since we are actually discussing that. So what do you gain? Another talk path via the second time slot. The requirement to buy a new radio and figure out the programming of that radio if you choose to go down that path. And you get TONS of interference in the analog repeaters that are preexisting. The on /off RF switching that DMR does causes an otherwise unintelligible signal if it were FM that can't be captured in an analog receiver to interfere with analog communications. Channels will fill with pulsed noise floors that would render the service unusable by others. And if you think that the lack of frequency coordination causes issues with GMRS now. DMR on GMRS would really create issues with the machine gun noise that DMR creates, from repeaters much farther away than what we see with analog wide band transmissions now. And how do you travel with DMR on GMRS. Lets say that it comes to pass and we get DMR on the service. The individual repeater owners are task with managing ID's. How do you get in a car and travel with DMR? Not only would you need to know the group call ID's for the repeater systems you want to communicate on but you would need a unique ID for that system. And the next system down the road has different group calls and ID's so then you need that info. And guess what? not all radios support multiple radio ID's (Motorola) so you have to reprogram the radio for each system that you want to communicate on. Yes, there are radios that support multiple ID's but they are the cheap import junk, not the Part 90 stuff that everyone wants. So you are stuck with a DMR Baofeng, or reprogramming your Motorola out on the road as you pass through the coverage area of various repeaters. Take it a step further, and say the FCC allows linking of DMR. Now you have Brandmeister / DMR-MARC for GMRS. And we come back to who is gonna manage the ID's group calls and repeater ID's for the system? There are 650 thousand ham's in the US. so that's a total of 650K ID's that COULD be issued. What's the family unit size for the possible number of required ID's? Grandparents, Parents and kids... lets call it 10 radios per call sign. All with individual ID's. 336K GMRS operators licensed is the number I found. Not sure on the number of GMRS repeaters out there that would all need an ID. But these are BIG numbers. And a BIG database. So I don't see it working and the ones asking for it have no idea what they are really asking for and would never be a part of dealing with the aftermath of getting it.

OK, I have a minute to type this all out. Again. According to the statements made by the FCC regarding the issues created with linking multiple repeaters together are as follows. First is the inability to 'monitor' the frequency before transmitting. This is a carry over from Part 90 regulations when you have an FB2 commercial repeater pair. There is a requirement that you monitor the repeater output frequency in CSQ (no PL/DPL) before transmitting to verify that the frequency is not in use by another entity that's also assigned the frequency for their repeater / base station. FB2 frequencies are shared (issued to multiple entities) in a specific geographical location. They are NOT exclusive use frequencies like an FB6, FB8 of 'market frequency' meaning you 'own' that frequency in your geographical location. With an FB6 you can key up at any time and NOT monitor but can't transmit continuously. For a TRUNKED radio system the control channel has to be an FB8. With that designation, you can transmit 24/7/365 on that frequency. Same with a market frequency. The FBx designation sets a standard distance from the transmitter in kilometers that you can operate in. Market frequencies are similar but the 'allowed coverage' are is much larger. These were a carryover from the days of pagers where a paging company had a market area of operation and that market area was covered with a single frequency with total saturation (strong signal). To eliminate interference, a market frequency was only used once in some states and may not be available in any neighboring state depending on distances between transmitters. Power levels for the transmitters would exceed 1 kilowatt and ERP could be in the 10's of kilowatts depending on the antenna system. We don't have ANY of that with GMRS. We have 8 pairs that are NOT assigned or coordinated in any way that we can select from for a repeater and share (like an FB2) with other users. Since we WERE doing this, I can be specific. My repeater was in the Columbus Ohio area linked to others. But I will only discuss one repeater in Indiana for simplicity. I can't possibly hear any traffic NOT on the repeater I am linked to in Indiana, unless it's traffic on that specific repeater I am linked to. And likewise, users in Indiana can't hear a repeater in Columbus that I am sharing the frequency with before they key up. When they key the repeater in Indiana I am linked to, my repeater also begins to transmit and causes interference in Columbus with the local repeater I share the frequency with. And that's the problem that the FCC has issue with pertaining to interference. So how can it be addressed? Easiest way to address it is the repeater linking controller (Raspberry Pi) could have an input from a second receiver that monitors for traffic on the repeater output frequency in CSQ that would inhibit the transmit line from keying the local repeater it's connected to IF there was local traffic on the frequency. If a minimum height of the antenna for that receiver was established at no less than 50% of the height of the transmit antenna, then it would actually be BETTER than the user of the local repeater listening from their location since they aren't going to hear another user that's on the other side of the repeater in questions coverage area. This would 100% eliminate the concern of interference from a remote repeater keying on other users in the coverage are of that remote repeater. Over utilization of pairs is also a concern. And is easily addressed with requirements of how linking is done and WHERE it's done. Meaning, if a repeater owner has a linked repeater in a geographical location, that linked group can have no more than ONE repeater in that linked group in that area. If coverage infill is needed (addressing of poor coverage spots within the major coverage area of the repeater) it would have to be done with simulcast on a single frequency or not at all. That leaves other pairs open for other users. And an additional requirement that the repeater owner / linked system owner doesn't allow for others in a given geographical area to link to a running system where coverage is already established. Meaning if I have a repeater linked to a system in Columbus Ohio, that is the ONLY repeater / frequency / channel allowed to be linked to that system in Columbus. If another repeater owner wants to link their equipment to that system, they have to link to me, since I am established, with a same frequency simulcast setup or not link to that system. Of course if it's in another geographical location, that's not covered, like Cleveland for example, then they would be allowed to link to the system. But that repeater would be the ONLY one in Cleveland linked to the specific system in question. This would address the over utilization of the 8 repeater pairs we have for use in the GMRS service. That addresses the two major concerns with the FCC. Now we get into the PSTN / WIRE LINE control issues. This is pure and simple a rule change or better definition of each and what's allowed and what's not. There is an argument that the rule regrading linking to the PSTN was purely a 'phone patch' regulation. Back when that rule was set, long distance fee's were a thing. And long distance fee's were NOT applied to wire line (dry pair) connections for radio service, only telephone calls from a telephone customer to another customer outside of their exchange. It's believed that the phone companies were concerned about loosing out on revenue from long distance calls that could be made from a GMRS radio to a repeater in another exchange that had phone patch capabilities so they petitioned the FCC to ban that, and they did. There is nothing in the regulations specifically about 'wire line' control outside of remote control (telemetry) for GMRS, and I think the wire line thing is someones interpretation of the PSTN link, calling it wire line when they are two different things. Yes, this would need to be clarified / a rule change to get this dealt with. But again, not impossible to address, just one more small thing to address. Last issue is providing local coverage to an area covered by a linked repeater. Simple enough. Set a requirement to the owner of any linked repeater that a repeater of similar coverage that was NOT linked be available to users of that area. Meaning if there is a repeater owned by others, that is publicly available and OPEN to all licensed users and NOT for private use only, then you can just put up your repeater and link it without doing anything else. If such a repeater does NOT exist in the coverage area of your proposed repeater, you as the linked repeater owner should be required to provide that local repeater as well. And it be open for use with no more access requirement than the linked repeater has. Meaning fee's or club membership requirements. So yes, it's gonna take some rule changes, and it's NOT gonna be the 'wild west' like it was. And in truth, I think this would create usable linked systems that could co-exist with non-linked repeaters and GMRS users that would contribute to the service as a whole.