WRKC935

OK, been meaning to explain this and this is a good time.
The commercial guys here will all tell you there are three tests that we perform when installing a new repeater system out in the field.
First test is 12dB sinad with the service monitor connected to the duplexer wit no antenna.
Second test is for something called isolation.  We drop the input signal down to where the repeater squelches, or stops transmitting and then increase the signal slowly until the receiver just opens back up.  What we then look for is the repeater to drop again when the transmitter comes up and then drop back out.  If the duplexer isn't tuned correctly, the repeater will 'ping pong' up and down because the TX frequency is getting into the receiver and deafening it to some degree.  If it does start to ping pong, we increase the signal level in in TENTH's of a dBm until it stops.  At that point, we usually stop the testing, touch up the duplexer tuning and run through all the tests again.  The last test is antenna desense.  An isolation Tee is connected to the duplexer antenna port and a dummy load is then connected to the output.  The tap port has signal injected on it to the point the receiver opens and the signal level is noted.  Then the signal is removed, and the dummy load is unhooked and the antenna is connected.  The signal is injected again on the tap and increased to the point that the receiver opens again.  The difference in the required signal level is the antenna desense for that antenna and repeater system at that site.
Now, here's how that applies to what YOU are seeing.
With the 12dB Sinad test, you need to understand what that measurement is.  That being a ratio of signal to noise in the receiver.  Here's a good explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINAD
 
But it's NOT the minimum signal level that the repeater can hear and open up.  That is actually the LAST test (antenna desense) where the signal level is just above the noise floor enough for the receiver to recognize it and hear the PL /DPL.  On a repeater running CSQ, the level is going to be lower, because it doesn't need to hear the tone above the noise, just the RF.  These readings are gonna be 6 to 12 dB different in their levels.  And the basis of where I make the statements about needing to be able to increase signal level a BUNCH to get a noisy signal to be full quieting.  It's not a watt or two, unless you are only running 1 watt or less to begin with.  That's based on using dB and specifically dBm numbers for power output in place of watts.  An example is 30dBm is 1 watt, 33 dBm is 2 watts, 36dBm is 4 watts.  on the upper end, 50dbm is 100 watts and 53dBm is 200 watts.  So when you look at it that way, and start realizing that to go from just opening a repeater receiver at -119dBm to 12 dB SINAD at -110dBm or so, that 9dB signal level change is HUGE in the percentage of power change when you convert it back to watts. 
And the best part is you can calculate all this if you have the information about the equipment in play. 
You need the antenna model (so you know the gain) the coax type and length (to calculate the cable loss) the number and type of jumpers (again cable loss) the duplexer model (insertion loss).  Then you need YOUR power level in watts (converted to dBm) and your antenna system numbers as well.  The last part is the distance between the antenna's to calculate something called PATH LOSS.  With all that you can calculate what the actual signal is at the repeater input from your radio transmitter from miles away.   And yes, I have tested this and found that it's accurate within a dB or two.  The difference is from signals that bounce off other things and arrive out of phase to the antenna and cancel put part of the signal.  This is called Rayleigh effect.  (Again, go look it up, NOT typing it all out) but that also explains sitting in traffic and the repeater fading out.  Moving 2 feet and the repeater signal coming back. 
 

I have used other 'stubby' antenna's.  Mostly for Motorola radios, but the antenna really don't care what radio it's attached to.
Stubby's are fine if they will put out enough signal and receive enough signal to function in the application you are trying to use them for.
If you are using a repeater that you are already noisy into with a standard antenna, you aren't gonna have much luck with a stubby.
If you have a good signal, the repeater is close, or the other radio you are talking to simplex is close, then again, not an issue.
You're not going to bounce signals off the moon with a stubby antenna.  But you aren't gonna carry around a 20 foot dish to talk simplex with that would bounce signals off the moon when powered with an HT either.
 

First thing to understand is what is fair to good signal level in the radio.
-95 dBm is whats required for an ERRS for in building public safety coverage.  That's a noise free solid signal.
-105 is the very beginning of noise in the receiver on a WIDE BAND FM signal
a typical radio will hit 12dB Sinad at somewhere around -112 to -115 dBm  that should be a full copy signal with noticeable static in the background.
 
So now we get to structure attenuation.
And that's going to depend on the structure, and the materials used. 
Assuming here that you have a standard stick build (wood 2X4) framing.  Drywall interior finish and vinyl or wood siding exterior.  The reason I know it's not stucco is that is applied to chicken wire which has MORE attenuation than the vinyl siding.  Metal siding is higher yet.  And the house is a bit older as the windows are probably not E-glass which has a very high attenuation level, comparable to sheet metal.
Stick build vinyl is going to have somewhere around 10dB of attenuation, stucco is around 20dB and metal is going to be 30dB plus.  I have walked building that were sheet metal exterior next to a transmit site (less than a mile) and had no usable (less than -105dBm signal level inside the building) with a -50dBm signal outside. 
And hearing the repeater isn't what really tells me the attenuation level.  It's the fact you can talk to the repeater.  The portable output signal is down at LEAST 12 dB from the repeater, assuming that you are running at 50 watts out, losses getting that down 4 to 6 dB in the cable and duplexer, and a modest gain antenna.  The portable has 4 watts, and no real gain from the antenna. 
It's all numbers.
power out - duplexer loss - cable loss + antenna gain = ERP
ERP - path loss - building attenuation +/- antenna gain = signal in the radio
All that should be calculated in dB.  Convert the power output from watt's to dBm and then run the numbers.  They will be right as long as the information is correct and will never lie. 
 

First thing to understand is what is fair to good signal level in the radio.
-95 dBm is whats required for an ERRS for in building public safety coverage.  That's a noise free solid signal.
-105 is the very beginning of noise in the receiver on a WIDE BAND FM signal
a typical radio will hit 12dB Sinad at somewhere around -112 to -115 dBm  that should be a full copy signal with noticeable static in the background.
 
So now we get to structure attenuation.
And that's going to depend on the structure, and the materials used. 
Assuming here that you have a standard stick build (wood 2X4) framing.  Drywall interior finish and vinyl or wood siding exterior.  The reason I know it's not stucco is that is applied to chicken wire which has MORE attenuation than the vinyl siding.  Metal siding is higher yet.  And the house is a bit older as the windows are probably not E-glass which has a very high attenuation level, comparable to sheet metal.
Stick build vinyl is going to have somewhere around 10dB of attenuation, stucco is around 20dB and metal is going to be 30dB plus.  I have walked building that were sheet metal exterior next to a transmit site (less than a mile) and had no usable (less than -105dBm signal level inside the building) with a -50dBm signal outside. 
And hearing the repeater isn't what really tells me the attenuation level.  It's the fact you can talk to the repeater.  The portable output signal is down at LEAST 12 dB from the repeater, assuming that you are running at 50 watts out, losses getting that down 4 to 6 dB in the cable and duplexer, and a modest gain antenna.  The portable has 4 watts, and no real gain from the antenna. 
It's all numbers.
power out - duplexer loss - cable loss + antenna gain = ERP
ERP - path loss - building attenuation +/- antenna gain = signal in the radio
All that should be calculated in dB.  Convert the power output from watt's to dBm and then run the numbers.  They will be right as long as the information is correct and will never lie. 
 

First thing to understand is what is fair to good signal level in the radio.
-95 dBm is whats required for an ERRS for in building public safety coverage.  That's a noise free solid signal.
-105 is the very beginning of noise in the receiver on a WIDE BAND FM signal
a typical radio will hit 12dB Sinad at somewhere around -112 to -115 dBm  that should be a full copy signal with noticeable static in the background.
 
So now we get to structure attenuation.
And that's going to depend on the structure, and the materials used. 
Assuming here that you have a standard stick build (wood 2X4) framing.  Drywall interior finish and vinyl or wood siding exterior.  The reason I know it's not stucco is that is applied to chicken wire which has MORE attenuation than the vinyl siding.  Metal siding is higher yet.  And the house is a bit older as the windows are probably not E-glass which has a very high attenuation level, comparable to sheet metal.
Stick build vinyl is going to have somewhere around 10dB of attenuation, stucco is around 20dB and metal is going to be 30dB plus.  I have walked building that were sheet metal exterior next to a transmit site (less than a mile) and had no usable (less than -105dBm signal level inside the building) with a -50dBm signal outside. 
And hearing the repeater isn't what really tells me the attenuation level.  It's the fact you can talk to the repeater.  The portable output signal is down at LEAST 12 dB from the repeater, assuming that you are running at 50 watts out, losses getting that down 4 to 6 dB in the cable and duplexer, and a modest gain antenna.  The portable has 4 watts, and no real gain from the antenna. 
It's all numbers.
power out - duplexer loss - cable loss + antenna gain = ERP
ERP - path loss - building attenuation +/- antenna gain = signal in the radio
All that should be calculated in dB.  Convert the power output from watt's to dBm and then run the numbers.  They will be right as long as the information is correct and will never lie. 
 

First thing to understand is what is fair to good signal level in the radio.
-95 dBm is whats required for an ERRS for in building public safety coverage.  That's a noise free solid signal.
-105 is the very beginning of noise in the receiver on a WIDE BAND FM signal
a typical radio will hit 12dB Sinad at somewhere around -112 to -115 dBm  that should be a full copy signal with noticeable static in the background.
 
So now we get to structure attenuation.
And that's going to depend on the structure, and the materials used. 
Assuming here that you have a standard stick build (wood 2X4) framing.  Drywall interior finish and vinyl or wood siding exterior.  The reason I know it's not stucco is that is applied to chicken wire which has MORE attenuation than the vinyl siding.  Metal siding is higher yet.  And the house is a bit older as the windows are probably not E-glass which has a very high attenuation level, comparable to sheet metal.
Stick build vinyl is going to have somewhere around 10dB of attenuation, stucco is around 20dB and metal is going to be 30dB plus.  I have walked building that were sheet metal exterior next to a transmit site (less than a mile) and had no usable (less than -105dBm signal level inside the building) with a -50dBm signal outside. 
And hearing the repeater isn't what really tells me the attenuation level.  It's the fact you can talk to the repeater.  The portable output signal is down at LEAST 12 dB from the repeater, assuming that you are running at 50 watts out, losses getting that down 4 to 6 dB in the cable and duplexer, and a modest gain antenna.  The portable has 4 watts, and no real gain from the antenna. 
It's all numbers.
power out - duplexer loss - cable loss + antenna gain = ERP
ERP - path loss - building attenuation +/- antenna gain = signal in the radio
All that should be calculated in dB.  Convert the power output from watt's to dBm and then run the numbers.  They will be right as long as the information is correct and will never lie. 
 

Wait, what AI engine created that post?  Or where did it get copied and pasted from? 
Training ground for engineers, and emergency responders?  The engineers thing is laughable at best, and I have NEVER even heard of ham radio being a contributing factor in someone becoming a cop or fire fighter.  Now I have seen MANY a wacker that couldn't get into public safety for various reasons end up with a ham license.  Never the other way around.  Others are welcome to comment here, if they have ever heard such a thing, but I'm not gonna hold out much hope.
The engineer's thing.  Most new hams are not even good appliance operators.  They care little about the quality of their equipment (Baofengs) and for a long time they were getting their license for other reasons like joining a SAR / CERT group and it was sort of a requirement for those groups. 
The continued push that ham radio is for emergency communications promises the ARRL a new batch of members / license holders every time there is some significant incident that other types of communications fail and the otherwise uninformed general public see the statement that "Ham Radio Saves Lives" and go see about getting licensed.  Some get as far as finding out about the tests and that sends them to GMRS or drives them off all together.  A few go the full route and get licensed, buy a radio and listen to it for a month or so and put it in a closet.  VERY few become anything resembling active in the hobby. 
Fostering innovation?
Gonna ask, what innovative thing that had made a significant contribution to radio communications has come out of ham radio in the last 50 years? 
I just had this 'argument' with a bunch of backwards thinking hams that were certain that StarLink was going to be the end of EMCOMM (emergency communications) with regards to ham radio.  And if they don't figure out how to adopt it and other newer technologies, then yes, it might do just that. 
The whole ad-hoc, no infrastructure, radio to radio communications thing is great if two things are present.  First is the distances are short.  No one is going to be of any assistance with a flood or tornado if they are on the other side of the country.  Those sorts of things are localized.  The communications need to be localized as well.  FEMA and other state EMA agencies have all but completely gotten away form HF as a resource, because it's of limited use.  They bring in trailer mounted towers and VHF/UHF/800 equipment to restore communications for public safety. 
So if you have no infrastructure, the other thing you need is enough people to bridge the gap in coverage between where you are and where the people are you need to communicate with.  That requires operators in specific places to relay traffic from you to the other party.  Ham radio was in the past fairly active most places.  Now that activity is significantly lower.  And even if those people are in the right locations, are they going to be willing to participate and pass traffic. 
 

Well, it's provoked.  Just maybe not here. 
If you happen to log into eham and look in the EMCOMM section, you can see a multipage show about how StarLink is now going to replace ARES and hammie EMCOMM.  And me trying my level best to explain that the ONLY thing that will bring about the end of EMCOMM in ham radio is the narrow minded ham operators that feel that EMCOMM can ONLY take place on the ham bands, with some sort of voice communications.  If a microphone isn't involved, and it's not in the assigned frequency spectrum of the ham radio allocation then it's 'not real EMCOMM'.  And they just keep coming out of the woodwork furthering the narrow minded thought processes.  But they refuse to see StarLink as a possible tool in their EMCOMM toolbox for data transfer and instead poo poo on the idea of it completely.  Bringing up that ham radio is ad-hoc and redundant and in their minds will still save the world from the evil Motorola radio systems.
 
Mind you.... and I can't believe I am saying this. I agree with Randy on a good bit of his view on ham radio and the SAD HAMS thing.  Keep in mind that on November 6th, I renewed my license for the 3rd time.. I have been licensed since 94, making it over 30 years a ham.
But I keep getting reminded.  Just the other day, I actually heard a couple guys using the repeater.  So I piped up and attempted to join in.  I finally got recognized, and even after being recognized and spoken to, the two original members of the conversation would continually short key.  When I said something about it, the guys reaction was, "yeah, I tend to do that most of the time".  fully admitting that he steps on everyone else and just doesn't care.  I took the high road and left the 100 watt radio in low power and tried to maintain a turn, but they just weren't having that. 
I choose to take the high road and maintain two ham repeaters.  Keep tossing my call out on the local repeaters to see if there is anyone to talk to.  And maintain a presence.  Which is more than most it seems. 

Well, it's provoked.  Just maybe not here. 
If you happen to log into eham and look in the EMCOMM section, you can see a multipage show about how StarLink is now going to replace ARES and hammie EMCOMM.  And me trying my level best to explain that the ONLY thing that will bring about the end of EMCOMM in ham radio is the narrow minded ham operators that feel that EMCOMM can ONLY take place on the ham bands, with some sort of voice communications.  If a microphone isn't involved, and it's not in the assigned frequency spectrum of the ham radio allocation then it's 'not real EMCOMM'.  And they just keep coming out of the woodwork furthering the narrow minded thought processes.  But they refuse to see StarLink as a possible tool in their EMCOMM toolbox for data transfer and instead poo poo on the idea of it completely.  Bringing up that ham radio is ad-hoc and redundant and in their minds will still save the world from the evil Motorola radio systems.
 
Mind you.... and I can't believe I am saying this. I agree with Randy on a good bit of his view on ham radio and the SAD HAMS thing.  Keep in mind that on November 6th, I renewed my license for the 3rd time.. I have been licensed since 94, making it over 30 years a ham.
But I keep getting reminded.  Just the other day, I actually heard a couple guys using the repeater.  So I piped up and attempted to join in.  I finally got recognized, and even after being recognized and spoken to, the two original members of the conversation would continually short key.  When I said something about it, the guys reaction was, "yeah, I tend to do that most of the time".  fully admitting that he steps on everyone else and just doesn't care.  I took the high road and left the 100 watt radio in low power and tried to maintain a turn, but they just weren't having that. 
I choose to take the high road and maintain two ham repeaters.  Keep tossing my call out on the local repeaters to see if there is anyone to talk to.  And maintain a presence.  Which is more than most it seems. 

Well, it's provoked.  Just maybe not here. 
If you happen to log into eham and look in the EMCOMM section, you can see a multipage show about how StarLink is now going to replace ARES and hammie EMCOMM.  And me trying my level best to explain that the ONLY thing that will bring about the end of EMCOMM in ham radio is the narrow minded ham operators that feel that EMCOMM can ONLY take place on the ham bands, with some sort of voice communications.  If a microphone isn't involved, and it's not in the assigned frequency spectrum of the ham radio allocation then it's 'not real EMCOMM'.  And they just keep coming out of the woodwork furthering the narrow minded thought processes.  But they refuse to see StarLink as a possible tool in their EMCOMM toolbox for data transfer and instead poo poo on the idea of it completely.  Bringing up that ham radio is ad-hoc and redundant and in their minds will still save the world from the evil Motorola radio systems.
 
Mind you.... and I can't believe I am saying this. I agree with Randy on a good bit of his view on ham radio and the SAD HAMS thing.  Keep in mind that on November 6th, I renewed my license for the 3rd time.. I have been licensed since 94, making it over 30 years a ham.
But I keep getting reminded.  Just the other day, I actually heard a couple guys using the repeater.  So I piped up and attempted to join in.  I finally got recognized, and even after being recognized and spoken to, the two original members of the conversation would continually short key.  When I said something about it, the guys reaction was, "yeah, I tend to do that most of the time".  fully admitting that he steps on everyone else and just doesn't care.  I took the high road and left the 100 watt radio in low power and tried to maintain a turn, but they just weren't having that. 
I choose to take the high road and maintain two ham repeaters.  Keep tossing my call out on the local repeaters to see if there is anyone to talk to.  And maintain a presence.  Which is more than most it seems. 

Well, it's provoked.  Just maybe not here. 
If you happen to log into eham and look in the EMCOMM section, you can see a multipage show about how StarLink is now going to replace ARES and hammie EMCOMM.  And me trying my level best to explain that the ONLY thing that will bring about the end of EMCOMM in ham radio is the narrow minded ham operators that feel that EMCOMM can ONLY take place on the ham bands, with some sort of voice communications.  If a microphone isn't involved, and it's not in the assigned frequency spectrum of the ham radio allocation then it's 'not real EMCOMM'.  And they just keep coming out of the woodwork furthering the narrow minded thought processes.  But they refuse to see StarLink as a possible tool in their EMCOMM toolbox for data transfer and instead poo poo on the idea of it completely.  Bringing up that ham radio is ad-hoc and redundant and in their minds will still save the world from the evil Motorola radio systems.
 
Mind you.... and I can't believe I am saying this. I agree with Randy on a good bit of his view on ham radio and the SAD HAMS thing.  Keep in mind that on November 6th, I renewed my license for the 3rd time.. I have been licensed since 94, making it over 30 years a ham.
But I keep getting reminded.  Just the other day, I actually heard a couple guys using the repeater.  So I piped up and attempted to join in.  I finally got recognized, and even after being recognized and spoken to, the two original members of the conversation would continually short key.  When I said something about it, the guys reaction was, "yeah, I tend to do that most of the time".  fully admitting that he steps on everyone else and just doesn't care.  I took the high road and left the 100 watt radio in low power and tried to maintain a turn, but they just weren't having that. 
I choose to take the high road and maintain two ham repeaters.  Keep tossing my call out on the local repeaters to see if there is anyone to talk to.  And maintain a presence.  Which is more than most it seems. 

While there has been a significant increase in GMRS license holders and repeaters in recent years.  Not every corner of the US has a GMRS repeater. 
There is always a possibility that you are having issues with what you are doing with the search, it might be that there are simply no repeaters in your area.
 
If you are willing to give a basic location of where you are, one of use can take a look and see if there are any repeaters that you just aren't seeing or if you don't have any coverage in that area.
 

Not watching the video.... this seems to be turning into some Hammie ARES EMCOMM thing that would infer that if she had a yellow vest and a Baofeng radio that she would have been fine because "Ham Radio saves Lives"  Which is a true statement ..... because laughter is the best medicine.
 

While there has been a significant increase in GMRS license holders and repeaters in recent years.  Not every corner of the US has a GMRS repeater. 
There is always a possibility that you are having issues with what you are doing with the search, it might be that there are simply no repeaters in your area.
 
If you are willing to give a basic location of where you are, one of use can take a look and see if there are any repeaters that you just aren't seeing or if you don't have any coverage in that area.
 

Well, You really need someone that is familiar with communications to work with you to figure all this out.
With GMRS, every member not related to another member needs to have a license.  So if a father son / sons are involved, they could all operate under one license.  But no one else can. 
With ham it's specific to the individual to have a license with the correct allocations for the frequencies in use.  This is typically not an issue any more.  But a Novice license holder would not be able to operate in the VHF / UHF spectrum until they upgraded to a technician license.
But your best bet is a statewide part 90 itinerant license with a repeater pair and a simplex frequency.  You would be using part 90 radios that could be used for ham OR GMRS with the correct programming. The other possibility is getting an MOU from the agencies you will be service and having their assigned frequencies for SAR deployments programmed into the radios so you would have direct communications with Incident Command.  Of course, you NEED to have an MOU, don't just start putting public safety frequencies in your radio thinking it will be ok. 
If your group is established and recognized by public safety agencies and you get calls from them requiring assistance on a search, then they may well want you to have their frequencies programmed so that they are getting real time information AND so when a search is called for weather, or the individual is located, they would want to pull everyone back in without needing to track a group leader down for each group to call back searchers.
SAR during an activation is considered first responders in many states.  For that length of time you are technically recognized as public safety.  That's what I would be looking for, not what cheap radio service can I throw together some radios and use cheaply as humanly possible. 
Look at it like this.
IF you are doing high angle (rope) rescue.  You can get proper harnesses and ropes that are specifically designed to be used in that capacity.  Or you can go to the hardware store and get whatever they have available that has a minimum break strength above what your heaviest guy is.  It will work after all right?
Same thing with radios.  You send people out into the wilderness to search for someone, that radio is their lifeline back to the world.  If they fall and get injured then that radio will bring them help.  What would you want to be out in the boonies with?  A good quality commercial radio, or a 15 dollar import that you bought because it was the cheapest thing you could find?
 
 

Yeah, and I am the guy that has some of those 12K radios.  And I can say that wide band FM is wide band FM.  Same thing coming from a 38 dollar Baofeng and a 12K buck Motorola.  Same thing with wattage, if 4 watts is measured at the output of one radio, and there is 4 watts measured from another radio, that's the same power. 
The 12K buck radio may continue to work in a high RF noise environment when the lesser radio gives up and looses the ability to lock onto the signal of interest, but that's the difference.  The 38 dollar may start mixing those other signals that are getting into the transmit circuits and begin to have issues on the air with a clean signal, but again, 12K gets you a LOT of shielding that's not going to be in the 38 dollar radio.  But outside of that, FM is FM.  If the 38 dollar works at all, it's going to work the same if it has the same power output and deviation (modulation) as the 12K Motorola.  And the ham / GMRS operator that has that 12K Motorola will NEVER be able to give you a reasonable and honest answer on why they 'need' that radio.  Because no one will ever admit that it's purely vanity that gets them to drop the silly amount of money required to get such a radio. 
There is no special function that makes those radios superior to even the cheapest radios in 99% of the operations they are expected to perform, which is talking on the local repeater.  I have Boafengs too.  I can't take them downtown on rooftops and expect them to work.  The RF noise in those locations drive the radios nuts.  My high dollar Motorola works in those situations just fine.  But if I am out in the country at home,  no one can tell if I am talking on the Baofeng or the Motorola.  While they don't sound exactly the same because that 12K gets you a bunch of audio processing, dual mikes, noise canceling and other stuff that 38 bucks isn't going to buy, you have to decide if 12K is too steep a price to pay so you can talk on the local repeater while you're on the lawn mower with all the engine noise being canceled out or not. 
To address the FCC type acceptance thing mentioned by others.  If you don't understand the type acceptance procedure, that is done by the manufacture, not the FCC.  Well you might read up on that before stating claims about it.  Manufactures do their own testing.  And may or may not be required to submit equipment for testing to the FCC for additional testing.  And even when there is a requirement for sending in radios, it's up to the manufacture to ensure that the radios going out the door for sale are the SAME design and function as the radios that were submitted for testing.  Some manufactures do verify that every unit is equally good as it leaves the factory.  And some manufactures make 'wonder knives' like the 'as seen on TV' ones that saw bricks in half then slice a tomato.  Can a knife be made to do that.  But when was the last time you were at a state fair watching the guy saw a copper pipe in half and then cut bread actually sell the knife HE'S using, not the ones on display.  Or randomly take one of the ones for sale for 19.99 and do those things with it, and then attempt to sell THAT knife.  Because NOTHING about the knife the seller is using is the same as the ones you will go home with other than looks. 
Now, would China based companies do such a thing?  Well they put lead in toys, ship Fentanyl to us, send helium balloons into our country to spy on use, and a full list of other things that would fill a page here but then verify that every last radio coming out of their factories is the same as the one they sent for testing that cost 10 times to make?  I am not going to hedge my bets on that.  But you are more than welcome to. 

That ship sailed in 1994 when I got my Tech ticket.  KB8VUL
I have actively tried, and continue to try to bring old hams back and convince interested folks to become new hams.
But you have to want to get into ham for the right reasons.  If you aren't looking to expand your technical knowledge, and use ham radio as it was meant to be, then why bother.
 

Oh no,,,, not number of ham repeaters.  Here we have a FULL dance card.  I got the LAST available 2 meter pair for my P25 repeater and lucked into a UHF pair that a friend had and was abandoning that the repeater council transferred to me because the site I have has such good coverage. 
My UHF repeater see's some use.  More than most but less than a few.  The VHF repeater, as well as all the rest of the VHF repeaters in this area are stone silent. 
The VHF repeater does see some traffic from a south eastern ham net that is P25 and other digital modes I have that repeater linked to.  But I haven't seen any local activity on that repeater at all on analog or P25.
 

First off, don't let SAD HAMS drive you from that service.  They can be told to go kick rocks just like anyone else.  Having that license doesn't make them special, even if they are convinced it does.  Ham radio can be an enjoyable hobby and pastime and a few clowns shouldn't turn you off from that endeavor.  I just renewed for the third time four days ago.  So 30 years of being a ham.  Yes, I have told people to kick rocks that were hams.  Told it to a GMRS operator or two as well. 
The fixed antenna could be a couple things.  One not mentioned is does the radio have the full complement of FRS channels in it?  FRS is a low power service that is tighly regulated and the equipment has certain stipulations as well. One of which is the interstitial channels are .5 watts and the radio can't have a removable antenna.
That is to keep the talk distance to a minimum.  So that's worth looking into as well.
 

Yeah, and I am the guy that has some of those 12K radios.  And I can say that wide band FM is wide band FM.  Same thing coming from a 38 dollar Baofeng and a 12K buck Motorola.  Same thing with wattage, if 4 watts is measured at the output of one radio, and there is 4 watts measured from another radio, that's the same power. 
The 12K buck radio may continue to work in a high RF noise environment when the lesser radio gives up and looses the ability to lock onto the signal of interest, but that's the difference.  The 38 dollar may start mixing those other signals that are getting into the transmit circuits and begin to have issues on the air with a clean signal, but again, 12K gets you a LOT of shielding that's not going to be in the 38 dollar radio.  But outside of that, FM is FM.  If the 38 dollar works at all, it's going to work the same if it has the same power output and deviation (modulation) as the 12K Motorola.  And the ham / GMRS operator that has that 12K Motorola will NEVER be able to give you a reasonable and honest answer on why they 'need' that radio.  Because no one will ever admit that it's purely vanity that gets them to drop the silly amount of money required to get such a radio. 
There is no special function that makes those radios superior to even the cheapest radios in 99% of the operations they are expected to perform, which is talking on the local repeater.  I have Boafengs too.  I can't take them downtown on rooftops and expect them to work.  The RF noise in those locations drive the radios nuts.  My high dollar Motorola works in those situations just fine.  But if I am out in the country at home,  no one can tell if I am talking on the Baofeng or the Motorola.  While they don't sound exactly the same because that 12K gets you a bunch of audio processing, dual mikes, noise canceling and other stuff that 38 bucks isn't going to buy, you have to decide if 12K is too steep a price to pay so you can talk on the local repeater while you're on the lawn mower with all the engine noise being canceled out or not. 
To address the FCC type acceptance thing mentioned by others.  If you don't understand the type acceptance procedure, that is done by the manufacture, not the FCC.  Well you might read up on that before stating claims about it.  Manufactures do their own testing.  And may or may not be required to submit equipment for testing to the FCC for additional testing.  And even when there is a requirement for sending in radios, it's up to the manufacture to ensure that the radios going out the door for sale are the SAME design and function as the radios that were submitted for testing.  Some manufactures do verify that every unit is equally good as it leaves the factory.  And some manufactures make 'wonder knives' like the 'as seen on TV' ones that saw bricks in half then slice a tomato.  Can a knife be made to do that.  But when was the last time you were at a state fair watching the guy saw a copper pipe in half and then cut bread actually sell the knife HE'S using, not the ones on display.  Or randomly take one of the ones for sale for 19.99 and do those things with it, and then attempt to sell THAT knife.  Because NOTHING about the knife the seller is using is the same as the ones you will go home with other than looks. 
Now, would China based companies do such a thing?  Well they put lead in toys, ship Fentanyl to us, send helium balloons into our country to spy on use, and a full list of other things that would fill a page here but then verify that every last radio coming out of their factories is the same as the one they sent for testing that cost 10 times to make?  I am not going to hedge my bets on that.  But you are more than welcome to. 

Yeah, and I am the guy that has some of those 12K radios.  And I can say that wide band FM is wide band FM.  Same thing coming from a 38 dollar Baofeng and a 12K buck Motorola.  Same thing with wattage, if 4 watts is measured at the output of one radio, and there is 4 watts measured from another radio, that's the same power. 
The 12K buck radio may continue to work in a high RF noise environment when the lesser radio gives up and looses the ability to lock onto the signal of interest, but that's the difference.  The 38 dollar may start mixing those other signals that are getting into the transmit circuits and begin to have issues on the air with a clean signal, but again, 12K gets you a LOT of shielding that's not going to be in the 38 dollar radio.  But outside of that, FM is FM.  If the 38 dollar works at all, it's going to work the same if it has the same power output and deviation (modulation) as the 12K Motorola.  And the ham / GMRS operator that has that 12K Motorola will NEVER be able to give you a reasonable and honest answer on why they 'need' that radio.  Because no one will ever admit that it's purely vanity that gets them to drop the silly amount of money required to get such a radio. 
There is no special function that makes those radios superior to even the cheapest radios in 99% of the operations they are expected to perform, which is talking on the local repeater.  I have Boafengs too.  I can't take them downtown on rooftops and expect them to work.  The RF noise in those locations drive the radios nuts.  My high dollar Motorola works in those situations just fine.  But if I am out in the country at home,  no one can tell if I am talking on the Baofeng or the Motorola.  While they don't sound exactly the same because that 12K gets you a bunch of audio processing, dual mikes, noise canceling and other stuff that 38 bucks isn't going to buy, you have to decide if 12K is too steep a price to pay so you can talk on the local repeater while you're on the lawn mower with all the engine noise being canceled out or not. 
To address the FCC type acceptance thing mentioned by others.  If you don't understand the type acceptance procedure, that is done by the manufacture, not the FCC.  Well you might read up on that before stating claims about it.  Manufactures do their own testing.  And may or may not be required to submit equipment for testing to the FCC for additional testing.  And even when there is a requirement for sending in radios, it's up to the manufacture to ensure that the radios going out the door for sale are the SAME design and function as the radios that were submitted for testing.  Some manufactures do verify that every unit is equally good as it leaves the factory.  And some manufactures make 'wonder knives' like the 'as seen on TV' ones that saw bricks in half then slice a tomato.  Can a knife be made to do that.  But when was the last time you were at a state fair watching the guy saw a copper pipe in half and then cut bread actually sell the knife HE'S using, not the ones on display.  Or randomly take one of the ones for sale for 19.99 and do those things with it, and then attempt to sell THAT knife.  Because NOTHING about the knife the seller is using is the same as the ones you will go home with other than looks. 
Now, would China based companies do such a thing?  Well they put lead in toys, ship Fentanyl to us, send helium balloons into our country to spy on use, and a full list of other things that would fill a page here but then verify that every last radio coming out of their factories is the same as the one they sent for testing that cost 10 times to make?  I am not going to hedge my bets on that.  But you are more than welcome to. 

Many here have stated what GMRS was actually setup to do.  Provide extended family and small group communications beyond what the FRS service could.  It was a medium power service that allowed fixed stations (base setups with elevated antennas) and repeaters for the extension.  That is what is was originally for.  And the rules and regulations pretty much bear that out.
But that's not what it has turned into.
I will preface this with the fact that 3 days ago I renewed my ham license for the 3rd time.  That is a 10 year license, so I have been involved with ham radio since 1994, so 30 years at this point.   And ham radio wasn't ever really to be a social gathering place.  It was for the furtherment of communications through experimentation and to build a pool of qualified electronics technicians that could provide support for technology in the future.  Of course, ham radio isn't that any more either.
 
But, GMRS is now a conduit for social interaction.  This was once done with CB radio.  A great many people had radios and they communicated throughout their community with other individuals in a social manner.  AKA they would get on the radio and BS back and forth.  It wasn't for building RF techs, radio nerds, or specifically for emergency communications.  But ANY radio service can be used for EMCOMM.  It's just going to be limited by the regulations and equipment available for that service.   But GMRS is now a gathering place for folks to chat with each other via voice communications.  My guess is that COVID may have sparked renewed interest in having a reliable conduit for communications that didn't require face to face interactions and was always readily available.  I wasn't personally involved with GMRS during COVID.  But I have since done testing and continue to test coverage and gather radios for deployment for family so that the path of communications can't be easily severed.  My repeater site will soon have alternative 'off grid' power in addition to the current grid, battery and generator power that is in place and functioning.  Single 'car' batteries with a single 100 watt solar cell and charge controller will maintain power and limited light for family members during a disaster situation so we can check in with each other and maintain some sense of normal during an abnormal situation.  But again, that's not what it was really for.  It just lends itself to that function.  But in the end, it still is a conduit for social interaction.  And that is a good thing. 
 

Many here have stated what GMRS was actually setup to do.  Provide extended family and small group communications beyond what the FRS service could.  It was a medium power service that allowed fixed stations (base setups with elevated antennas) and repeaters for the extension.  That is what is was originally for.  And the rules and regulations pretty much bear that out.
But that's not what it has turned into.
I will preface this with the fact that 3 days ago I renewed my ham license for the 3rd time.  That is a 10 year license, so I have been involved with ham radio since 1994, so 30 years at this point.   And ham radio wasn't ever really to be a social gathering place.  It was for the furtherment of communications through experimentation and to build a pool of qualified electronics technicians that could provide support for technology in the future.  Of course, ham radio isn't that any more either.
 
But, GMRS is now a conduit for social interaction.  This was once done with CB radio.  A great many people had radios and they communicated throughout their community with other individuals in a social manner.  AKA they would get on the radio and BS back and forth.  It wasn't for building RF techs, radio nerds, or specifically for emergency communications.  But ANY radio service can be used for EMCOMM.  It's just going to be limited by the regulations and equipment available for that service.   But GMRS is now a gathering place for folks to chat with each other via voice communications.  My guess is that COVID may have sparked renewed interest in having a reliable conduit for communications that didn't require face to face interactions and was always readily available.  I wasn't personally involved with GMRS during COVID.  But I have since done testing and continue to test coverage and gather radios for deployment for family so that the path of communications can't be easily severed.  My repeater site will soon have alternative 'off grid' power in addition to the current grid, battery and generator power that is in place and functioning.  Single 'car' batteries with a single 100 watt solar cell and charge controller will maintain power and limited light for family members during a disaster situation so we can check in with each other and maintain some sense of normal during an abnormal situation.  But again, that's not what it was really for.  It just lends itself to that function.  But in the end, it still is a conduit for social interaction.  And that is a good thing. 
 

Many here have stated what GMRS was actually setup to do.  Provide extended family and small group communications beyond what the FRS service could.  It was a medium power service that allowed fixed stations (base setups with elevated antennas) and repeaters for the extension.  That is what is was originally for.  And the rules and regulations pretty much bear that out.
But that's not what it has turned into.
I will preface this with the fact that 3 days ago I renewed my ham license for the 3rd time.  That is a 10 year license, so I have been involved with ham radio since 1994, so 30 years at this point.   And ham radio wasn't ever really to be a social gathering place.  It was for the furtherment of communications through experimentation and to build a pool of qualified electronics technicians that could provide support for technology in the future.  Of course, ham radio isn't that any more either.
 
But, GMRS is now a conduit for social interaction.  This was once done with CB radio.  A great many people had radios and they communicated throughout their community with other individuals in a social manner.  AKA they would get on the radio and BS back and forth.  It wasn't for building RF techs, radio nerds, or specifically for emergency communications.  But ANY radio service can be used for EMCOMM.  It's just going to be limited by the regulations and equipment available for that service.   But GMRS is now a gathering place for folks to chat with each other via voice communications.  My guess is that COVID may have sparked renewed interest in having a reliable conduit for communications that didn't require face to face interactions and was always readily available.  I wasn't personally involved with GMRS during COVID.  But I have since done testing and continue to test coverage and gather radios for deployment for family so that the path of communications can't be easily severed.  My repeater site will soon have alternative 'off grid' power in addition to the current grid, battery and generator power that is in place and functioning.  Single 'car' batteries with a single 100 watt solar cell and charge controller will maintain power and limited light for family members during a disaster situation so we can check in with each other and maintain some sense of normal during an abnormal situation.  But again, that's not what it was really for.  It just lends itself to that function.  But in the end, it still is a conduit for social interaction.  And that is a good thing. 
 

When the radio's you have in your vehicle cost more than the car did. 
When you put a second mortgage on your house (rental property) to buy a 240 foot tower site.
When you are spending 200 plus dollars a month on running your own tower site.  (taxes and electric)
When people drive by your house and know that you own the tower site down the street because of the antenna and microwave dish array you have on your roof.
When you still enjoy operating radios socially (HAM and GMRS) after 15 years of working on radios professionally.
When you have decided that you would rather do radio work after having a job offer that was 40K more than what you are currently making.