WRUU653

There are a lot of different threads with a lot of posts and for the past several months the whole linking subject has been discussed a lot.  It’s just impossible to see them all. 

Thanks for that Steve. I didn’t see that discussion. Sorry for the repeat post folks! 

Hope that gets you connected. Good luck, and feel free to ask questions if you need help.

@nokones i have said many times that there is a huge advantage with CB over FRS or GMRS, because HF has LOS propagation, like GMRS, but also has the advantage of Ground Wave and Sky Wave propagation as well. However, very few people I have met in my entire life, have a properly installed CB. Even fewer have SSB to take advantage of the extra power and sideband performance characteristics. I only know one person (personally) that has an FM CB.  Bad performance of poorly installed factory stock AM radios that only put out 1 or 2 watts and 75%-80% modulation on a good day, and the lack of operators with compatible gear for SSB led me to recommend the much more powerful and installation forgiving GMRS.
 
I have an AM / FM CB. Ive done a test similar to what you mentioned, comparing AM CB to FM VHF and UHF. While I didn't compare CB AM to CB FM, my results showed a dramatic range improvement with a 50w GMRS radio compared to my well performing AM CB. Living here in VA, I should try to find some time to duplicate your test, to see how terrain and woods impact performance. I'll have to see if I can get the one person I know with an FM CB to run some tests with me.

About a month or two ago, there was a discussion on that the CB Radio FM Mode may be something that should be looked at to consider bringing back the use of the CB radio for uses such as Off-Road Trail Comms.  I stated that the CB FM Mode would probably propagate or provide better communications than the CB with AM modulation, and even better than FRS.
Some Forum members disagreed but no one could cite any facts or back up their statements.  I related that I think the CB FM modulation would have a better signal-to-noise ratio thus, better communication Farz.
I also stated that as time permits, I would conduct a radio comparison test.  Well, that day came, and I conducted the subject test comparing the communications with FRS, CB AM, and CB FM.  I kept the test simple, and I did not record any RSSI (Radio Signal Strength Indicator) readings.  I just did the ol’ hoot & howler type test to see if you can hear the communication and determine the usable distance and audio quality between the three subject radio transmissions.
The test was conducted essentially in a desert environment on flat terrain, with a slight dip in elevation for a dry creek bed and a test point was conducted in that dip, consisting a few cacti, pucker bushes, and giggly weeds, with no other obstacles.
A 2007 Chevrolet Avalanche was the Stationary Transmitting Point using a Cobra 29 LTD Classic Nightwatch AM/FM CB Radio with a Firestik II 4 Ft. Antenna in the center of the roof.  CB Ch. 16 was used for both the AM & FM modes and the antenna was tuned at less than 1.1:1 VSWR.  The CB Radio operated in the AM Mode with a Dead Carrier, no modulation, at 3.5 RF watts and was drawing 14.01 DC volts at 1.12 amps; and 3.9 RF watts with modulation, at 14.00 DC Volts and was drawing 1.46 amps.  In FM mode, the radio was emitting 3.7 RF watts with essentially no difference in power draw.
The data collection vehicle was a 2023 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon using a Cobra 25 LTD Classic CB AM/FM radio with a Firestik II 5 Ft. Antenna tuned to less than 1.1:1 VSWR and the antenna located on the rear Spare Tire Carrier Bracket near the passenger side of the vehicle.
The data collection consisted of collecting test data every ¼ mile driving away from the stationary vehicle.  The test concluded at the 3.25 mile checkpoint.  The data collection vehicle operated the radio squelch level at the threshold of squelching out the noise.
The FRS radios were two Midland LXT radios with fully charged batteries.  The stationary vehicle transmitted on the FRS radio from inside the vehicle as a user would be doing on an actual off-road trail run and the test collection vehicle was receiving the communication transmission from inside the vehicle as an user would be doing on an off-road trail run.
The RF output power was not checked due to the inability to measure.
The FRS became non-existent passed the ¾ mile mark.
The CB AM signal was good and quiet up to the 1 mile mark.  The next ½ mile, the signal was readable but RF noisy.  At the 2 & 2 ¼ mile marks the signal was barely readable.  At the 2 ½ mile mark the signal was non-existent and covered by possible skip interference.
In the FM mode, the signal was very good essentially full quieting for the first 1 ½ miles.  From the 1 ¾ mile mark to the 2 ¾ mile mark, the signal was readable with some RF noise.  At the 3-mile mark, the signal was very noisy but readable.  At the 3 ¼ mile mark, the signal was very noisy and unreadable.
In conclusion, the FM signal transmissions outperformed the AM signal transmissions.
Based on these results on what would be the best Off-Road Trail Comm., I think the FM CB transmission has a good chance of being a very good trail comm.  I think a test on an actual off-road trail with trees/foliage would be warranted to see what would be best under trail conditions. 
There is no doubt that any VHF or UHF mobile radio with RF output power higher than an FRS would perform better.  I think that I just may conduct that test once I get my XTL VHF radio installed in my Jeep which will occur in the near future so I can conduct a comparison radio test between the VHF & UHF radios on the trail.

I've reviewed the Chirp code for the 5RM and the 17Pro. It's largely the same code (5RM class inherits from 17Pro class). There is no reason that I can see that the 5RM radio of the same version as mine, would not work with the 5RM entry in Chirp, unless you downloaded your code plug from a different radio and then modified it and tried to upload it as a 5RM. I suggest that if you cannot use the 5RM model in Chirp for your 5RM radio, you file a bug report with Chirp, because it's clearly not the intent for that to not work. As a software engineer it drives me crazy that two people with identical hardware and identical software would not get the same result. If you file that bug report, you will help all the people who are experiencing the same problem you are experiencing.
Here is a link to the code in question:
https://chirpmyradio.com/projects/chirp/repository/github/revisions/master/entry/chirp/drivers/baofeng_uv17Pro.py#L1313
That code encapsulates both the 17Pro and 5RM classes of radios.
And here is a link for submitting bug reports:
https://chirpmyradio.com/projects/chirp/issues
I've seen that the developers for Chirp are highly responsive. Your bug report will get addressed. The address may be "We can't reproduce", but I rarely see bugs closed that way in the Chirp issues stream. Usually they either result in a patch being created, or the developers discovering an issue with how the software is being used. But either way, someone learns, the developers improve their knowledge base too.
 

I cannot explain why your experience with Chirp would be so different from mine, for the same radio.
 
I have the vendor set to Baofeng, and the radio set to 5RM. I set channel 193 to 121.300, named it AirGround1, and immediately the software selected "AM" as the mode. I set Duplex to "off" which disables transmitting (though the radio won't transmit, regardless). I saved the image. I uploaded it to the radio. I turned on the radio and selected channel 193. It has AirGround1, and it can hear ground control traffic. That's with Chirp next-20240919 on Python 3.12.3. Could you try with that configuration?
 
My radio is firmware version v0.14. Hardware version v01.

I understood that.  I also understood that you could enter air band channels from the front panel.  I’m suggesting that you could maybe use the software to do most of the channel entry as regular channels, the tedious part such as channel names, etc.  Then, from the front panel convert those regular channels to air band channels by changing the frequency and modulation. I just thought you could make it slightly easier for yourself.  
Good luck in either case.

Nice detailed review. Thanks for the antenna tests.  I got 2 of these a few days ago and have been going through them pretty thoroughly. I am getting about 7.5w on H, 4.5w on M, and 1.4w on L on the GMRS freqs. I did test on the 2m call freq and got 9w, but I don't use this radio for 2m. I bought the minimal set that only has the one short antenna. I have no way to test the antenna other than comparing it to the GMRS tuned antennas that I currently have for other radios. So, with my current GMRS antennas, I can easily open and talk on the closest repeater to my house with the AR-5RM, which I can not do on my other 4 and 5 watt radios with the same antennas.  I also can not even open that repeater with the AR-5RM using the included short antenna you tested.
One little thing that might be a big thing for some. is the placement of the USB-C charging port that is on the battery. Many times these ports end up on the bottom of the battery or radio so you are not able to stand the radio up while charging. The port on the AR-5RM is on the back of the battery and has a little rubber cover.
One last thing. This radio has the typical Roger Beep, but it also has a MDC1200 sounding tone just for fun.
This is a decent radio for the $30 I paid.

Great review, thanks.  I got mine yesterday and the only thing I did was add one of my Nagoya 771 antennas and was hitting a repeater 30-ish miles away while on my front porch in the middle of a neighborhood full of oak trees. I couldn't do that with any of my previous Baofeng or Tid Radio units.

I don't have this radio but maybe my two cents will help. As mentioned by @dosw, when programming Air Band in Chirp be sure to select AM in the mode column. Also some radios that do Air Band receive will only do so in the upper display and not the lower. Good luck.

This is absolutely correct.  In traditional DMR programming you end up with a channel for every combination of talkgroup and repeater.  It’s not uncommon to have a hundred different channels for every repeater. Then, in order to use any channel it must be added to a zone.  It’s much, much easier in OpenGD77/OpenUV380.  You build talkgroup lists and then you simply associate each repeater to a talkgroup list.  Fortunately, extracts or even the entire database of talkgroups are very easily downloaded.
But as @BoxCar said you don’t need to know anything about how DMR works to take any of the ham exams.  If it’s even mentioned on the Extra exam I don’t remember it.  There might be a question about digital modes in general, but if you never learn anything about it you can still easily pass the test.

Don't worry about knowing about DMR or any of the other modes for the ham tests until you reach the Extra level. DMR is not an easy protocol to program as there are 3 elements to sync for every contact you want to use.

https://chirpmyradio.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home
 

Programming an AT778-UV by hand is not for the faint of heart. I tried it and couldn't connect to a repeater. As far as I could tell from the menu I was doing everything right. After reading from the radio with CHIRP I could see that the channel I was programming was in cross mode. Still not sure how that happened and not going to try and find out. Just do it the easy way with CHIRP and enjoy the radio.

My name is Steve.  After buying 
2 Motorola Talkabout GMRS/FRS combination radios,
2 Midland combination GMRS/FRS radios, and
1 Garmin Rino, 
I finally surrendered my soul to the addiction.  

Now I am a ham radio operator (AI7KS).

I will start the meeting....
My name is Brent and I have a GMRS problem.  I received my FCC license on 08/21/24 and it's 09/25/24, during this time I have purchased or obtained:
(2) Baofeng UV-5G Plus Radios (the start to the addiction)
(2) Baofeng UV-5RM Radios
(2) Antennas - UT-72G and Comet 2X4SRNMO
(1) Surecom SWR Meter
Countless coax and radio connectors
(1) Potluck / Meet & Greet at the KRUM 575 Repeater Tower
(1) Midland MXT400 (given to me by an awesome fellow GMRS buddy)
I have had frustrations, accomplishments, made new friends, new knowledge and simply put a lot of fun! 

My name is Glenn and I have a GMRS problem.

Back in 2012 I innocently bought a pair of cheap Midland GXT1050 walkie-talkies, lying to myself that they were only for practical purposes. I knew deep down I desired to tinker with radios as I did when I was a child playing with CB. 

Reading the manuals and searching the internet I learned that there were things in GMRS called "Repeaters."  I quickly returned these repeater-incapable radios and bought a slightly less inferior set of MOTOROLA MR356R, which also came in a dirty bubble pack. I applied for and received my first GMRS FCC license in February of 2012.  I freely admit I used them for some time, I even "checked in" to a few "nets"... but eventually I weened myself from my addiction. I let me license expire on 02/28/2017. I thought I was free. I thought I had escaped.

I was wrong.

Years later in 2024 I heard that the dealer of GMRS callsigns had lowered the cost to a mere $35. "Go ahead, everybody's doing it. You can handle it," I thought.

I returned to the dark ally where my FRN was still waiting for me, I navigated the dank smoke filled corridors of the FCC website and claimed a new GMRS callsign that would last me ten years, and would drag my entire immediate family back into the authorized, but despised world of GMRS. I bought a set of Tidradio TD-H3 HTs because of a shady street dealer who recommended them on youtube. I was excited, I was thrilled. I knew I could take it slow and control myself.

"They are just tiny radios", I said, "I can handle it this time."

Soon I was checking in on a local GMRS NET as a "guest", but I wanted more. I signed up and payed money to a group who owned the repeater. I got a group member ID. I could now call the repeater whenever I wanted! But I was calm. I had this under control. I was using the radios for practical purposes, communicating with friends whom I cycled with in a group on weekends. It helped I maintain group safety, I kept saying to myself.

Then it started. I did not want to go overboard and buy a mobile unit, but maybe I could get a mag mount antenna for my car and use my little HT with a hand mic to just "Try it out" first. Then I bought a few other removable antennas for my HTs to see which worked better when cycling. I bought different hand mics and even a boom mic headset to see if that worked better while cycling.

I have caught myself watching video reviews of Mobile Units and checking prices. I have looked up repeaters along the route I drive to where other family lives. I have even contemplated paying more money to another repeater club which has more activity on it than the one I currently have access to!

I don't know where all this is leading. But here I am.

I am a GMRS user. There,  I said it.

 
   

That could be true, I wouldn’t doubt that, but that’s not the same as they have no way to do it and just because they haven’t doesn’t make it okay if you don’t have permission. Which was my point all along, not much more to say on the subject. 

Scofflaws, ne’er do wells, ruffians… the linkers were a mad bunch snapping their nasty antenna whips, growling at old women and kicking rocks at children. Then law came to town, a man with a badge THE FCC!!! 
…sorry I was imagining a 60’s TV show that never was 🤣
carry on.

I've watched a lot of notarubicon's videos, @OffRoaderX, I'm just not able to retain what I learn like I used to. All of the searching that I did the last couple of days brought back some oh yeahs. All I need is a simple radio that just works out of the box. I think I've got my DB20 right for me finally. Thanks everyone. 

I appreciate the suggestions folks. When I head home Friday, I'll get out with my father and play around with that longer range repeater to see what I can come up with. Thanks again for the support!

You'll like those radios.  The wife and I use them.  As others have said, put some space between them and try to talk via the repeater.

You already seem to have a good understanding of your radios so that’s great. One thing I’ll say is if you have two radios right next to each other they can desense each other. So when testing your repeater contact move them apart maybe 50’. You’re on the right track.

Well said, I had to quote you because I wasn’t able to give a like and a laughing emoji and the term “jackass hunting” made me laugh out loud. I got to clean up this coffee now 😂