Utilizing GMRS vs Ham repeaters for a newbie!

[WSJF256]

Hi everyone,

New to world of gmrs. Have a Uv5r+. it came programmed with ~50 nearest ham repeaters. I understand simplex comms, but my question is if a buddy has the exact same radio/programmed the same way, wouldn’t we be able to communicate via one of the local repeaters we are both in range of that’s programmed in our radios? So if he goes 1 mile away and we lose connectivity with one another, shouldn’t we be able to tune into the same local repeater and now communicate? We do not have Ham licenses but do have GMRS. Should we be finding the nearest GMRS repeater and communicating through it? 
 

trying to understand the difference. Thank you! 

[jwilkers]

You cannot use ham repeaters without a ham license, period.

You must reprogram the radio to frequencies you are legally licensed to use.

Sent from my SM-S911U1 using Tapatalk

[GreggInFL]

46 minutes ago, WSJF256 said:

... shouldn’t we be able to tune into the same local repeater and now communicate? We do not have Ham licenses but do have GMRS. Should we be finding the nearest GMRS repeater and communicating through it?

Sure, just use the GMRS repeater frequency.

And welcome to GMRS!

[WRTC928]

Yes, if both radios are programmed correctly, that's how it should it work. The repeater picks up the signal from one HT and retransmits ("repeats") it with more power from a more advantageous position. Typically, a repeater is situated in an elevated position, meaning it can receive and transmit more effectively than a radio at ground level.

If there are GMRS repeaters open to public use within range, that would give you the communication capability you want. That's the primary reason I put up a repeater. I have a couple of buddies living to the east of me where I can reach their HTs with a base unit and tall antenna, but not with an HT. The repeater gives us HT-to-HT capability over a wide area. GMRS repeaters are privately owned, and some owners allow public use while others don't. As a general rule, if the repeater is listed in public databases with the CTCSS/DTCS code, it's available for public use.

You're not permitted to use a repeater (or simplex, for that matter) on any service for which you do not have the appropriate license. Some repeater owners are pretty casual about the license requirement, while others are strict, but FCC regulations do require that you be licensed for the frequencies you use.

[UncleYoda]

2 hours ago, jwilkers said:

You must reprogram the radio to frequencies you are legally licensed to use.

That still doesn't follow the rules unless it is a GMRS approved radio, which should have the repeater channels already there.  His given model number doesn't match any that I know of.

[amaff]

3 hours ago, jwilkers said:

You cannot use ham repeaters without a ham license, period.

There's a pretty big difference between "cannot" and "should not," period.

[OffRoaderX]

3 hours ago, jwilkers said:

You cannot use ham repeaters without a ham license, period.
You must reprogram the radio to frequencies you are legally licensed to use.

Oh my, that sounds serious!
What will happen if he does it anyway?

[OffRoaderX]

The short answer is YES - you could, and there is nothing stopping you.  Any H.A.M.s listening might become very sad and it would be breaking the FCC rules (not laws, but RULES). but beyond that, nothing would happen based on the FCC's current and past 15 years of enforcement policies.

 

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, WSJF256 said:

We do not have Ham licenses but do have GMRS. Should we be finding the nearest GMRS repeater and communicating through it? 
 

If you and all of your buddies don't have Amateur licenses then NO you can't use the Ham repeaters under any condition.

If you and all of your buddies don't have a GMRS license, or operating under the license of a qualifying family member, then NO you can't use any GMRS repeaters either.  

Messing around on the Ham repeaters will likely get you nailed fairly quickly. Why? Because Hams have a sport they call "Fox Hunting." Some are VERY VERY good at it and have some expensive equipment specifically for direction finding use.

It's a popular sport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting

https://www.arrl.org/direction-finding

The guys with the Doppler direction finders can get a directional fix in seconds with a decent signal. It's very similar to the old "LoJack" system used by police.

https://radiodirectionfinding.wordpress.com/wat-is-een-amplitude-rdf/

[OffRoaderX]

23 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Messing around on the Ham repeaters will likely get you nailed fairly quickly. Why? Because Hams have a sport they call "Fox Hunting." Some are VERY VERY good at it and have some expensive equipment specifically for direction finding use.

Oh my, that sounds serious!  Can you tell us what happens after they fox-hunt someone and locate them?

Because if you dont, I will.

[amaff]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

If you and all of your buddies don't have Amateur licenses then NO you can't use the Ham repeaters under any condition.

Really? Under *ANY* condition? Because I can think of a couple carve outs in the rules...

The scare-mongering and disinformation is getting a bit silly.

[OffRoaderX]

13 minutes ago, amaff said:

The scare-mongering and disinformation is getting a bit silly.

"Some people" can be exhausting sometimes.. 

The funny thing is that whenever I complain about "some people" doing this krap, "some people" claim that nobody ever does this.

[WRTC928]

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

Oh my, that sounds serious!  Can you tell us what happens after they fox-hunt someone and locate them?

Because if you dont, I will.

Usually nothing, but not always. It's possible to do some really nasty things to your radio without ever stepping foot on your property. More likely, though, they'd change the input tone or require a PTT ID or something of the sort.

[OffRoaderX]

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

Can you tell us what happens after they fox-hunt someone and locate them?

Because if you dont, I will.

Here is what will happen if you break the FCC rules and use a H.A.M.s Radios repeater without a license to talk with your friends.

• The helpful/socially adjusted licensed operators will likely inform you that you're breaking the rules and politely ask you to stop
• If you continue, "some people" will become very sad and complain very loudly and make baseless threats
• If you continue to continue, the local H.A.M. posse could initiate a fox-hunt - either the old fashioned way or by use of something like a KrakenRF which makes it very fast and easy to locate a transmitter
• Assuming you continue long enough for them to find you, now they know where you were transmitting from
• They could knock on your door - but this would be very ill-advised for them. At a minimum they would be trespassing if you tell them to STFU and leave as they have zero legal authority to do anything.  At worst you could come outside and bitch-slap their fat-asses, call them names, make fun of their clothes, and make them cry.
• They could pull out the BIG GUNS and file a complaint with the FCC.  But based on the FCC's number of enforcements over the last 15 years, there is a 99.9999998% statistical certainty that the FCC will do NOTHING

It's a joke how so many of you clowns keep repeating these lies or insinuating that something horrible will happen if an outsider breaks your precious hobby's rules and THIS is exactly why so many normal-people make fun of you and your entire hobby.

 

TL;dr: NOTHING OF CONSEQUENCE WILL HAPPEN.

[73blazer]

6 hours ago, WSJF256 said:

it came programmed with ~50 nearest ham repeaters.

I assume "nearest" means "nearest to you?" ... If so, who sold you this radio programmed to the 50 nearest to you HAM repeaters, praytell? Did you ask for it to come that way?

[OffRoaderX]

Just now, WRTC928 said:

It's possible to do some really nasty things to your radio without ever stepping foot on your property.

I dont think they can do anything to the handheld radio that OP has.

[WRKC935]

29 minutes ago, amaff said:

Really? Under *ANY* condition? Because I can think of a couple carve outs in the rules...

The scare-mongering and disinformation is getting a bit silly.

Here we go with the 'I need to mod my radio so I can talk to the Po Po, just in case."

This has been asked and answered many times.  That rule means that you as a Novice ham operator can get on the Extra class frequencies if you hear someone there and ask for assistance in the event of an emergency.

Hammies think it means they need to MARS mod every radio they have so they can talk to public safety dispatchers.  And that's not it.

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO HAVE A RADIO WITH PUBLIC SAFETY CHANNELS IN IT.  So regardless of any means, you aren't suppose to posses those means to begin with.  Ham radios are NOT Part 90 and are NOT to be modified except for MARS operation. 

 

Again, I am agreeing with Randy here.  And still can't believe it.

What is Joe hammie gonna do when he tracks down that evil deplorable wanna be that's operating on their beloved local hammie repeater?

Are they gonna march up to their door and beat on it with their ARES badge and bandoleer of radios so they look like a dork version of Poncho Via?  Are they gonna wear their ARES yellow vest and puff out their chest and with all that fake authority tell them to stop doing it?  Or are they gonna really take it too far.  Pull the guy out of his house and beat the hell out of him on his front lawn?  Then find out it was his neighbor doing it as he's sitting in jail for felonious assault?

Maybe he will send him an real official looking letter with the ARRL logo and even his local club logo demanding they cease and desist.

Cause the FCC ain't gonna do much unless it's pervasive and they get LOTS of complaints

 

[WRTC928]

Just now, OffRoaderX said:

I dont think they can do anything to the handheld radio that OP has.

Oh, yeah, it's an HT. Well, probably nothing, then. But even if nothing happens, you're still an a-hole if you do it. Some people don't care, some are even proud of it, so options are limited.

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, amaff said:

Really? Under *ANY* condition? Because I can think of a couple carve outs in the rules...

The scare-mongering and disinformation is getting a bit silly.

Most people would point out emergency communications. However there there are some specific requirements that must hold. In the end it's still up to the FCC if they think the transmission was a rule violation or not. So, the safe answer is no. I had a short discussion about this with a VE once. He said it was a question people frequency got wrong. I even thought it was OK.

The sections in the Part 97 rules I found makes no mention about unlicensed operators using an amateur stations in an emergency. 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.403

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.405

[OffRoaderX]

4 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

Cause the FCC ain't gonna do much unless it's pervasive and they get LOTS of complaints

Just for clarification:  even then, statistically speaking, they wont do anything.  and EVEN if you were the unlucky 1 in a million every-ten-year looser, all they would do is send you a mean-letter and tell you to stop.

[WRTC928]

2 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

Here we go with the 'I need to mod my radio so I can talk to the Po Po, just in case."

This has been asked and answered many times.  That rule means that you as a Novice ham operator can get on the Extra class frequencies if you hear someone there and ask for assistance in the event of an emergency.

Hammies thing it means they need to MARS mod every radio they have so they can talk to public safety dispatchers.  And that's not it.

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO HAVE A RADIO WITH PUBLIC SAFETY CHANNELS IN IT.  So regardless of any means, you aren't suppose to posses those means to begin with.  Ham radios are NOT Part 90 and are NOT to be modified except for MARS operation. 

Absent a formal agreement, it's very difficult for me to imagine a scenario in which I'd need to talk to a public safety agency on their own frequency. It's certainly not likely enough that I'd go to any significant expense or effort to modify a radio to do it. If I needed to talk to the police, fire, etc., and a cell phone wouldn't work, I could get on the radio and have some ham give me a phone patch or -- even more likely -- the agency could use a GMRS or ham radio they already have to talk directly to me. 

[WRTC928]

8 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Most people would point out emergency communications. However there there are some specific requirements that must hold. In the end it's still up to the FCC if they think the transmission was a rule violation or not. So, the safe answer is no. I had a short discussion about this with a VE once. He said it was a question people frequency got wrong. I even thought it was OK.

The sections in the Part 97 rules I found makes no mention about unlicensed operators using an amateur stations in an emergency. 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.403

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.405

In the real world, it's difficult to imagine the FCC taking umbrage with someone who used a radio to save lives, regardless of the radio type, frequency, or the operator's license or lack thereof. IMO, the real point is that the FCC (and common sense, TBH) has a definition of an emergency. If your situation meets that definition, you're going to be okay. If not, you may or may not get into trouble, but you're still an a-hole.

[WRXL702]

So......... 

Let Me Get This Straight. If There Are No Known Consequences For Actions By "Some People" Breaking Rules, Then That Would Be OK To Break That Rule.

But If A Rule Was Broken That Is Monitored By YouTube Which Could Affect $$ - Then That Rule Should Be Followed.

Or A Rule That Could Ban Folks From This Forum, Then That Rule Should Be Followed.

Looks Like Another New Vid To Me - Rule Following By Choice Of Consequence.........

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRTC928 said:

In the real world, it's difficult to imagine the FCC taking umbrage with someone who used a radio to save lives, regardless of the radio type, frequency, or the operator's license or lack thereof. IMO, the real point is that the FCC (and common sense, TBH) has a definition of an emergency. If your situation meets that definition, you're going to be okay.

Yes. That was similar to the remark by the VE I had talked to. He said it was a technical rule violation, BUT the FCC would simply ignore it and no action taken. 

I guess I should have explained it better. There is what the rules say, then there is what really happens in practice. 

[OffRoaderX]

1 hour ago, WRXL702 said:

If There Are No Known Consequences For Actions By "Some People" Breaking Rules, Then That Would Be OK To Break That Rule.

Nobody has said that..

What many have said is, stop lying and spreading FUD that anything will happen if someone chooses to break the rules..

Big difference.