I'm north of Line A and just made a big mistake!

[NWHov]

In my short GMRS life time I chose to understand Line A rules that pertain to GMRS (in the absence of CLEAR FCC policy) to just stay off channel 19 and 21 and I'm good.  

A couple weeks ago, a local self reliance net I began to engage with, hosts peeps like me (that have no other radio friends) through some of the repeaters in my area for practice and to learn your radios capabilities.  They ended the session with the reminder of Line A and to stay away from channel 19 and 21.

The big mistake I made was I just read through some old threads here to learn more about it.  Sorry for the click bait but now I'm confused.  The latest replies on those threads seem to indicate the GMRS (UHF) frequencies are no longer a problem to use north of Line A?  I scrolled through some of them gov't codes you all talk of and the only thing I seemed to find was the Line A definition and contract with Canada.  I bypassed the contract link because that has to be way out my GMRS scope of practice and I saw nothing about Line A and frequencies.  

 

[SteveShannon]

59 minutes ago, NWHov said:

In my short GMRS life time I chose to understand Line A rules that pertain to GMRS (in the absence of CLEAR FCC policy) to just stay off channel 19 and 21 and I'm good.  

A couple weeks ago, a local self reliance net I began to engage with, hosts peeps like me (that have no other radio friends) through some of the repeaters in my area for practice and to learn your radios capabilities.  They ended the session with the reminder of Line A and to stay away from channel 19 and 21.

The big mistake I made was I just read through some old threads here to learn more about it.  Sorry for the click bait but now I'm confused.  The latest replies on those threads seem to indicate the GMRS (UHF) frequencies are no longer a problem to use north of Line A?  I scrolled through some of them gov't codes you all talk of and the only thing I seemed to find was the Line A definition and contract with Canada.  I bypassed the contract link because that has to be way out my GMRS scope of practice and I saw nothing about Line A and frequencies.  

 

Download an official copy of your license from the FCC. If th Line A prohibitions still affect you they will appear on your license. 
Th consensus of those of us who did this is that our current licenses no longer include the Line A restrictions. 

[NWHov]

6 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Download an official copy of your license from the FCC. If th Line A prohibitions still affect you they will appear on your license. 
Th consensus of those of us who did this is that out current licenses no longer include the Line A restrictions. 

In the Waiver/Conditions it says: NONE, in all capital letters.  Towards the bottom, I suppose to keep me confused, it has a box with this written in it...

Conditions: Pursuant to §309(h) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, 47 U.S.C. §309(h), this license is subject to the following conditions: This license shall not vest in the licensee any right to operate the station nor any right in the use of the frequencies designated in the license beyond the term thereof nor in any other manner than authorized herein. Neither the license nor the right granted thereunder shall be assigned or otherwise transferred in violation of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended. See 47 U.S.C. § 310(d). This license is subject in terms to the right of use or control conferred by §706 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended. See 47 U.S.C. §606.

That does not look like NONE.  Any lawyers out there?

[marcspaz]

Okay... really quick... the short answer is those people on the net are incorrect.  You can use all of the GMRS channels anywhere in the US.

Details without getting too dorky... what used to limit us was a combination of FCC rules and a US/Canada treaty.  The treaty is called "Agreement Between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of Canada Concerning the Coordination and Use of Radio Frequencies Above Thirty Megacycles per Second, with Annexes" also known as the "Above 30 MHz Agreement".

 

A new agreement that was signed in 2021 supersedes that agreement.  The new document is called "General coordination agreement between Canada and the United States of America on the use of the radio frequency spectrum by terrestrial radiocommunication stations and earth stations."   This document discontinued the parts first treaty I mentioned, that impacted GMRS.

 

Now, that only relates to the Treaty / Agreement.  Under FCC rules, the restriction was also lifted.  The older rule was under "§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification" (e).  However, § 95.1761(e) now has new text that is completely unrelated.  Also, Line A is not referenced anywhere in the Personal Radio Service general rules, nor in the GMRS specific rules.  The original text from the FCC (from the wayback machine), again no longer valid, is noted below.

 

§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification
(e) GMRS transmitters intended for use north of Line A or east of Line C* must not be capable of transmitting on channels 462.650 MHz or 462.700 MHz (GMRS Channels 19 and 21), unless such operation is specifically authorized by the Commission pursuant to an application showing that harmful interference to Canadian stations is unlikely.*

[marcspaz]

Quick side note....  FCC Rule § 1.928 "Frequency coordination, Canada" does still list 450MHz to 470MHz as restricted.  However, there is no indication that § 1.928 applies to GMRS.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, marcspaz said:

Quick side note....  FCC Rule § 1.928 "Frequency coordination, Canada" does still list 450MHz to 470MHz as restricted.  However, there is no indication that § 1.928 applies to GMRS.

I really think that the FCC screwed the pooch on this. They should have made some sort of announcement, or better yet sent an email to affected licensees.

[NWHov]

5 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

Okay... really quick... the short answer is those people are incorrect.  You can use all of the GMRS channels anywhere in the US.

Details without getting too dorky... what used to limit us was a combination of FCC rules and a US/Canada treaty.  The treaty is called "Agreement Between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of Canada Concerning the Coordination and Use of Radio Frequencies Above Thirty Megacycles per Second, with Annexes" also known as the "Above 30 MHz Agreement".

 

A new agreement that was signed in 2021 supersedes that agreement.  The new document is called "General coordination agreement between Canada and the United States of America on the use of the radio frequency spectrum by terrestrial radiocommunication stations and earth stations."   This document discontinued the parts first treaty I mentioned, that impacted GMRS.

 

Now, that only relates to the Treaty / Agreement.  Under FCC rules, the restriction was also lifted.  The older rule was under "§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification" (e).  However, § 95.1761(e) now has new text that is completely unrelated.  Also, Line A is not referenced anywhere in the Public Radio Service general rules, nor in the GMRS specific rule.  The original text from the FCC (from the wayback machine), again no longer valid, is noted below.

 

§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification
(e) GMRS transmitters intended for use north of Line A or east of Line C* must not be capable of transmitting on channels 462.650 MHz or 462.700 MHz (GMRS Channels 19 and 21), unless such operation is specifically authorized by the Commission pursuant to an application showing that harmful interference to Canadian stations is unlikely.*

 

19 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

Okay... really quick... the short answer is those people are incorrect.  You can use all of the GMRS channels anywhere in the US.

Details without getting too dorky... what used to limit us was a combination of FCC rules and a US/Canada treaty.  The treaty is called "Agreement Between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of Canada Concerning the Coordination and Use of Radio Frequencies Above Thirty Megacycles per Second, with Annexes" also known as the "Above 30 MHz Agreement".

 

A new agreement that was signed in 2021 supersedes that agreement.  The new document is called "General coordination agreement between Canada and the United States of America on the use of the radio frequency spectrum by terrestrial radiocommunication stations and earth stations."   This document discontinued the parts first treaty I mentioned, that impacted GMRS.

 

Now, that only relates to the Treaty / Agreement.  Under FCC rules, the restriction was also lifted.  The older rule was under "§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification" (e).  However, § 95.1761(e) now has new text that is completely unrelated.  Also, Line A is not referenced anywhere in the Public Radio Service general rules, nor in the GMRS specific rule.  The original text from the FCC (from the wayback machine), again no longer valid, is noted below.

 

§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification
(e) GMRS transmitters intended for use north of Line A or east of Line C* must not be capable of transmitting on channels 462.650 MHz or 462.700 MHz (GMRS Channels 19 and 21), unless such operation is specifically authorized by the Commission pursuant to an application showing that harmful interference to Canadian stations is unlikely.*

That's good info.  Was it only channel 19 and 21?  AI cited the below codes to me but when I looked them up, nothing about Line A.  If it were still affect, I guess my local reliance NET peeps would not be such a reliable source since they use channel 17, 18, and 22 within Line A.  

The FCC Part 95 sections relevant to Line A restrictions for GMRS operations near the U.S.-Canada border are:

• 47 CFR § 95.309: Defines Line A as a line ~120 km (75 miles) south of the U.S.-Canada border and prohibits certain GMRS channels (462.550–462.725 MHz and 467.550–467.725 MHz) north of it.
• 47 CFR § 95.1767: Specifies GMRS power limits, including ≤5 watts ERP for handhelds and ≤50 watts for mobiles on allowed channels (e.g., 462.5625–462.7125 MHz) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1705: Prohibits GMRS fixed-base stations north of Line A and outlines general operational rules.
• 47 CFR § 95.1763: Lists GMRS channel frequencies, clarifying which are restricted (channels 15–22) or permitted (channels 1–14) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1733: Prohibits interference with Canadian systems, reinforcing Line A restrictions.

[Lscott]

1 minute ago, NWHov said:

 

That's good info.  Was it only channel 19 and 21?  AI cited the below codes to me but when I looked them up, nothing about Line A.  If it were still affect, I guess my local reliance NET peeps would not be such a reliable source since they use channel 17, 18, and 22 within Line A.  

The FCC Part 95 sections relevant to Line A restrictions for GMRS operations near the U.S.-Canada border are:

• 47 CFR § 95.309: Defines Line A as a line ~120 km (75 miles) south of the U.S.-Canada border and prohibits certain GMRS channels (462.550–462.725 MHz and 467.550–467.725 MHz) north of it.
• 47 CFR § 95.1767: Specifies GMRS power limits, including ≤5 watts ERP for handhelds and ≤50 watts for mobiles on allowed channels (e.g., 462.5625–462.7125 MHz) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1705: Prohibits GMRS fixed-base stations north of Line A and outlines general operational rules.
• 47 CFR § 95.1763: Lists GMRS channel frequencies, clarifying which are restricted (channels 15–22) or permitted (channels 1–14) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1733: Prohibits interference with Canadian systems, reinforcing Line A restrictions.

Now this is a legal question. There are those of us that have it specifically stated on our license we can't use those frequencies, so is it perfectly fine to disregard that? I'm thinking if it's a special restriction on our license, above and beyond the current rules, it would still apply until we get it officially removed from our license. One could argue the restriction is there to serve some other purpose than rule compliance. 

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Now this is a legal question. There are those of us that have it specifically stated on our license we can't use those frequencies, so is it perfectly fine to disregard that? I'm thinking if it's a special restriction on our license, above and beyond the current rules, it would still apply until we get it officially removed from our license. One could argue the restriction is there to serve some other purpose than rule compliance. 

Go to your account at the FCC and download a current version of your license. When I did that a few months ago the Line A restriction no longer appeared. 

[NWHov]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Now this is a legal question. There are those of us that have it specifically stated on our license we can't use those frequencies, so is it perfectly fine to disregard that? I'm thinking if it's a special restriction on our license, above and beyond the current rules, it would still apply until we get it officially removed from our license. One could argue the restriction is there to serve some other purpose than rule compliance. 

My first thought it's just an inefficient government system.  They are too lazy to go back and notify older licensees of an update.

[Lscott]

17 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Go to your account at the FCC and download a current version of your license. When I did that a few months ago the Line A restriction no longer appeared. 

Thanks. I just tried it. downloaded a reference copy. Nothing is listed under Waivers/Conditions.  

Looks like I'll have to make a few code plug edit changes for my radios. Oh-well, more busy work.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, Lscott said:

Thanks. I just tried it. downloaded a reference copy. Nothing is listed under Waivers/Conditions.  

Looks like I'll have to make a few code plug edit changes for my radios. Oh-well, more busy work.

I wasn’t certain if the waivers/conditions appeared on the reference copies the same as the official copy so I went through the pain of downloading an official copy. It no longer appears there either. 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, NWHov said:

 

The FCC Part 95 sections relevant to Line A restrictions for GMRS operations near the U.S.-Canada border are:

• 47 CFR § 95.309: Defines Line A as a line ~120 km (75 miles) south of the U.S.-Canada border and prohibits certain GMRS channels (462.550–462.725 MHz and 467.550–467.725 MHz) north of it.
• 47 CFR § 95.1767: Specifies GMRS power limits, including ≤5 watts ERP for handhelds and ≤50 watts for mobiles on allowed channels (e.g., 462.5625–462.7125 MHz) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1705: Prohibits GMRS fixed-base stations north of Line A and outlines general operational rules.
• 47 CFR § 95.1763: Lists GMRS channel frequencies, clarifying which are restricted (channels 15–22) or permitted (channels 1–14) north of Line A.
• 47 CFR § 95.1733: Prohibits interference with Canadian systems, reinforcing Line A restrictions.

 

I'm not sure where you (AI) pulled this, but it's all old, not part of the current FCC rules and have not been valid since 2017.  The current rules are here...

 

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E 

[NWHov]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

 

I'm not sure where you (AI) pulled this, but it's all old, not part of the current FCC rules and have not been valid since 2017.  The current rules are here...

 

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E 

That was the point I was trying to make is that after reviewing those old codes that AI cited about Line A, the new codes said nothing of Line A except for § 95.309 (see below) which changed its text.  

AI also claims the GCA agreement doesn't supersede the Above 30MHz agreement therefore both agreement are still in act.  But if that's correct, that would mean that the FCC took out all the text from part 95 regarding Line A and hid it in those agreements I can't find nor should have to find.  95.309 (b) is the only code I see that pertains but does a GMRS user need to read through agreements and treaties to figure it all out?  

§ 95.309 Coordination procedures and other restrictions for operation in certain locations.  

The operator of a Personal Radio Service station may be required to coordinate operation in advance and/or may be subject to operating restrictions if the station is to be operated in certain locations, described in the following paragraphs in this section.

(b) Near a U.S. border or in an area that is or may be subject to an international treaty or agreement. Treaties and agreements may be viewed or downloaded from the FCC Web site: http://www.fcc.gov/ib/sand/agree/.

[amaff]

3 hours ago, NWHov said:

AI cited

People treating AI slop and hallucinations as a source for factual information is....concerning.

[NWHov]

1 minute ago, amaff said:

People treating AI slop and hallucinations as a source for factual information is....concerning.

Who's treating IA as factual?  I even pointed out an AI flaw.  It cited me old codes.   I used it as another opinion/source.  Would it be right to only use what I heard on a forum?  Now that would be concerning.

[marcspaz]

The funny part is, I'm a bit of a dork when it comes to this stuff, so I have read it all to see how it impacts my Amateur license use and my GMRS license use. There is nothing in our agreements or treaties with Canada or Mexico that encompasses GMRS frequencies. That said, I agree with the general sentiment. People shouldn't have to be a legal scholar (or try to think like one) and willing to spend several hours or even days trying to research this stuff, just to talk to their family or friends on a $10 radio they bought at Walmart or on Amazon. The whole concept is asinine. The two nations should just coordinate their frequency use and keep it simple for their citizens. 

[NWHov]

6 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

The funny part is, I'm a bit of a dork when it comes to this stuff, so I have read it all to see how it impacts my Amateur license use and my GMRS license use. There is nothing in our agreements or treaties with Canada or Mexico that encompasses GMRS frequencies. That said, I agree with the general sentiment. People shouldn't have to be a legal scholar (or try to think like one) and willing to spend several hours or even days trying to research this stuff, just to talk to their family or friends on a $10 radio they bought at Walmart or on Amazon. The whole concept is asinine. The two nations should just coordinate their frequency use and keep it simple for their citizens. 

Agree.  I hope you didn't take offense or think I was trying to call you out with using AI to research further.  I'm in the zone and feel I better understand it all.  Not just trivia for me.  

[amaff]

21 minutes ago, NWHov said:

Who's treating IA as factual?

 

10 minutes ago, NWHov said:

I hope you didn't take offense or think I was trying to call you out with using AI to research further.  

I guess you're doing further research with sources you know to not be factual then. You're right, that makes way more sense...

[NWHov]

7 minutes ago, amaff said:

 

I guess you're doing further research with sources you know to not be factual then. You're right, that makes way more sense...

What sources do you use that you consider "factual?"  Wikipedia?  I'm new to GMRS and trying to learn it.  What "factual" sources do you recommend I use to research these topics?

[marcspaz]

11 minutes ago, NWHov said:

I hope you didn't take offense or think I was trying to call you out

 

Not at all. I figured we are just having a conversation and sharing information. 

 

6 minutes ago, amaff said:

 

I guess you're doing further research with sources you know to not be factual then. You're right, that makes way more sense...

 

I don’t want to speak for the OP, but I think he is just trying to demonstrate how bad information is out in the world and how confusing it can be trying to figure it out for many people. I took it as that is really the topic. I could be wrong, though. 

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, NWHov said:

What sources do you use that you consider "factual?"  Wikipedia?  I'm new to GMRS and trying to learn it.  What "factual" sources do you recommend I use to research these topics?

The only factual reference for the GMRS rules is the government rules: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95?toc=1

[WRYS709]

As I recall, @OffRoaderXdeclared Channel 19 as the GMRS National Calling Channel and the Feds backed down! 

[NWHov]

39 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

The only factual reference for the GMRS rules is the government rules: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95?toc=1

And that source needs decoding!

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, NWHov said:

And that source needs decoding!

Not too much, but you don’t see the whole picture until you put all the pieces together. Feel free to ask questions.